Author Topic: Panther tank and Jagdpanther  (Read 32352 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« on: January 30, 2012, 03:59:12 AM »
Wikipedia - Panther Tank


(Click on html or image to view Wikipedia article.  Image source: Bundesarchiv via Wikipedia)

Why is it that the Panther was not developed into a fire support vehicle?  Aside from the economic reasons for using all of those earlier hulls for this purpose, why not a fire support tank based on the Panther hull?   

With this terminology I am referring to something like the United States M4 Sherman that was armed with a 105mm howitzer.  What if the Panther development had included plans for a fire support tank armed with a 10.5 cm howitzer and the muzzle brake that was used on the Wespe 10.5 cm leFH18.  Obviously this type of fire support tank would need a new mantlet that would allow for a higher elevation for indirect fire.  Ammunition capacity on the vehicle would be about the same as the 75mm gun tank with the benefit of an armored turret for the crew. 

Mount the turret from the 10.5cm Heuschrecke 10 on the Panther hull. 

Another option would be to use the cannon parts from the 10.5 cm K (gp.Sfl.) Dicker Max with the Panther turret.


(Click on html or image to view article at Wikipedia.  Image source: Wikipedia

Something to think about for those not wanting to do a standard Panther or one of the variations on that theme. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 01:28:04 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 05:49:01 PM »
Some I did earlier.

Wheeled Panther:



Panthers with different wheel arrangement + a few other features...:




Mobile SAM:



Panther APC:

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 01:47:20 AM »
I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.

Back in the days when affordable 1/72nd kits of modern armour were thin on the ground, the Panther/Jagdpanther provided one of the few "modern-looking" basis for sci-fi wargaming armour. Me and my mate built a whole range of grav tanks from Panthers and T-34s for Traveller wargames:



This one's a bit wasteful because it uses two upper hulls. Unfortunately the more sensible ones are long gone now.
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 02:39:20 AM »
I suspect the reason why there was no HE fire support version of the Panther was that such a vehicle is essentially an offensive weapon and by the time the Panther came along, the Germans were pretty much on the defensive, where a high-angle howitzer that could shell advancing infantry indirectly was more use than a direct-fire "bunker buster". The Germans were no averse to the concept: the Pzkpfw IV started life as, effectively the fire-support tank to the Pzkpfw III's gun tank.

Yes, this was primarily why.  In a defensive situation, AT firepower is more important than HE.  The Germans were also (under Hitler's insistence) averse to any proposal that removed a potential gun tank from the production line.  They should have built probably 3 times as many Bergepanthers as they did, but it was that obsessive short-sightedness that drove it.

I've mentioned it a few dozen times, I think, but I've read an account of Panthers at the Battle of the Bulge firing at a stone house and doing precious little.  The HE content of its high-velocity 75mm KwK 42 was pathetic, just like the 17pdr (a VERY similar gun).

Thanks,

Logan

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »
If you wanted a whiffy fire-support vehicle on a Panther chassis, how about putting the 150mm L12 gun from the Brummbar into the front of a Jagdpanther? The Brummbar's weakness was always that it was too heavy for it's Pzkpfw.IV chassis, so this would give you the same firepower with the Panther's excellent mobility. Pretty easy model too....

For a Jagdpanther-based APC, you could usefully knock a couple of feet off the height of the fighting compartment. The BTR-50, which is a perfectly useable APC of similar, rear-engined configuration, is some 700mm lower than a Jagdpather.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:00:47 AM by Weaver »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 07:32:43 PM »
The was a proposed fire support Panther variant with a 150mm gun called the Sturmpanther IIRC.

http://fingolfen.tripod.com/panther/sturmpanther.html

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 01:50:19 AM »
While not a visible improvement, the most dramatic would be a Panther that was mechanically reliable
and easily maintainable.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 09:31:39 AM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 09:43:12 AM »
While not a visible improvement, the most dramatic would be a Panther that was mechanically reliable
and easily maintainable.
 ;D

I agree, Jon.  I listened to the late Jacques Littlefield's comments on the Panther's engineering and it was about as negative as you could get.  He was very unimpressed and pitied the men who had to work on it.  In his words, it wasn't overengineered, it was badly engineered.  In his opinion, the only truly positive aspects of the design were its decent gun and the fact that the turret was set far enough back that ricochets off the glacis wouldn't impact it.  That was it.  Everything else that seemed positive (suspension, armor, etc) had so many negative side effects that it had an overall detrimental effect on the vehicle's performance.

2/3 of Panthers lost in the Battle of the Bulge were due to mechanical failure, if memory serves.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 11:03:28 AM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.

Evan, there were a few different Flakpanther designs with twinned 37mm or 50mm or a quad 20mm weapon array.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 01:18:35 PM »
Wasn't there a twin-gun Flakpanzer turret proposed for the Panther?  Combine some of those with the SAM-launchers shown above as an air-defense unit.  Later users might mount MANPADs on the AA-gun turret.


Yes there was...



...my thoughts exactly.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 03:38:49 AM »
I had a DML/Dragon Beobachtungspanzer (based on the Panther G) and the DML/Dragon 10.5cm K.Pz.Sfl.IVa 'Dicker Max' (based on the PzKw IV) in my hands yesterday and was seriously considering going over to the dark side and modeling something WW2 and German based on the idea I shared in the origional post of a Panther armed with a 105mm gun/howitzer. 

It was a tough struggle but I fought the urge and put the kits back on the shelf.  I must say that it was very tempting though with the Dicker Max kit having a choice of two muzzle brakes and the option of plastic or metal gun tube. 
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM »
Get idea from these pictures.  Tank mounting twin A-10 30mm cannons.  On refurbished M-48 or M-60 hull.  Modern fire control system and working side by side with Abrams tanks.  That teaming would ruin someone's day.
Bill

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 09:53:43 AM »
Get idea from these pictures.  Tank mounting twin A-10 30mm cannons.  On refurbished M-48 or M-60 hull.  Modern fire control system and working side by side with Abrams tanks.  That teaming would ruin someone's day.
Bill

Err Bill...was this meant to be posted elsewhere?  Maybe a dedicated SPAAG Thread?
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 10:19:47 AM »
Started new thread for 30mm.
Am liking wheeled Panther.  Imagine it on a sunny day military parade with polished chrome wheels used for parades only.  Much easier to change than mounting chrome wheels which ride on Panther's tracks.
Bill

Offline dy031101

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2012, 10:55:33 AM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:58:23 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2012, 03:45:30 PM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2012, 08:29:21 PM »
The wheeled Panther makes me inclined to start an intellectual exercise- how would the Germans have done the A-20 and T-44/54?

(The intellectual exercise would not include the T-34 because the VK3002[DB] is how the Germans could have done the T-34, and the stock Panther is how the German ended up doing it.)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:

Prize or not its got me thinking...
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 07:09:42 AM »
Prize or not its got me thinking...


 ;)

Will their be prizes if we complete the exercise?  :icon_fsm:


But I'm just an otaku  :P



And her girlfriend might kill me over the slightest suggestion of her as a prize  ;D
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:39:23 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 01:32:01 PM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 11:47:34 PM »
A random idea:  a Jagdpanther but with the 128mm gun from the JagdTiger
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2012, 07:45:31 AM »
I'd be surprised if there wasn't a project to do just that in the E-series.

Regards,

John
Regards,

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 08:41:34 AM »
I think New Connection did a 1/35 conversion set for a Panther that sported a 128mm gun in a fixed superstructure sloped much like the Jagpdpanther's, but set at the back of the vehicle, much like the Panzerjäger Elefant.
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Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 05:14:17 AM »
I think New Connection did a 1/35 conversion set for a Panther that sported a 128mm gun in a fixed superstructure sloped much like the Jagpdpanther's, but set at the back of the vehicle, much like the Panzerjäger Elefant.

They did.

I plan on building two Panther Ausf F's in 1/48. One will have the long 75,the other will have a 105 howitzer,a sturmpanther.
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2012, 03:24:30 PM »
How about a ATGM armed Jagdpanther with X-7 Rotkäppchen missiles instead of the main gun?
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2012, 03:51:28 PM »
I suspect the 88 would be a more effective weapon in reality.  The technology was very much in its infancy and I can't imagine many missiles being carried onboard.  That said, it'd still look quite interesting.

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John
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2013, 03:54:10 AM »
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/98667-panther-iii-a-as-tier-x-medium/page__st__40

Is this absolutely fictious or based in some real studies?

Anyway I love it.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 02:01:36 PM »
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/98667-panther-iii-a-as-tier-x-medium/page__st__40

Is this absolutely fictious or based in some real studies?

Anyway I love it.


Fictitious.  The "real" E-75 looked much more like this:



As you can see, its taller and the turret more clearly derived from the Tiger II than the WoT's creation.  The WoT looks more like it's turret comes from an M-47 and is much lower.  Trumpeter offers a 1/35 model of it (the picture comes from the box-top).  Cromwell offers one in 1/72:


Offline ysi_maniac

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Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2013, 11:52:04 AM »
Was Schmallturm better than the stock one? why?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2013, 12:29:56 PM »
Smaller target and more heavily armoured with a better designed mantlet than the original design.  It was also easier to manufacture and was intended to be equipped with a stereoscopic range finder which would have improved accuracy.  I think though, it would have been a harder turret to fight from, more cramped and hard to upgrade.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2013, 01:41:37 PM »
German turrets really seemed to be going that way there at the end, didn't they?  The Germans must've been engineering tankers without shoulders while the Soviets were working on tankers without heads.





Cheers,

Logan

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2013, 08:49:13 AM »
German turrets really seemed to be going that way there at the end, didn't they?  The Germans must've been engineering tankers without shoulders while the Soviets were working on tankers without heads.





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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2013, 09:06:37 AM »
They need room for their jet packs and magic wands too don't forget  ;)
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther Schmallturm
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 01:14:52 PM »
That tank may look heavier than it is.
Whole appearance says weight-weight-weight.

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2014, 11:11:04 AM »
Question about rearming a Panther.  Would a 17 pounder fit in the turret or would it just be better to go with a French CN 75-50 since it was based on the original gun?  Looking at a one off built in the late 50s or early 60s in sub-Saharan Africa for fighting Soviet backed insurgents in a mercenary outfit.

Thank you for any help.

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »
Are you after improved firepower or simply ease of supportability?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2014, 12:39:10 PM »
Question about rearming a Panther.  Would a 17 pounder fit in the turret or would it just be better to go with a French CN 75-50 since it was based on the original gun?  Looking at a one off built in the late 50s or early 60s in sub-Saharan Africa for fighting Soviet backed insurgents in a mercenary outfit.

Thank you for any help.

Go with impoved ammunition.  The gun was quite adequate - and that was why the French stuck with it for a long time after the war.  Add APDS and it would have a new lease of life beyond the mid-1950s.

As Greg has suggested, you'd need improve maintainability.   The Panther was a pain in the bum to maintain and quite unreliable by all accounts.  More Panthers and Tigers were lost because of mechanical unreliability than due to enemy action in WWII.   Only the Panzer IV was really mature and reliable enough to see any major use post-war.  Panthers only served briefly with the French post-war and then quickly faded once more reliable US M-46/47 became available.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2014, 04:06:48 PM »
Agreed on the 75mm L70, the Israelis thought so too with their M50 Super Shermans.

I watched a doco on youtube last night that sort of ties into this, on German tanks-destroyers and assault guns last night.  They mentioned the reliability and maintainability issues with the Jagt-Panther.  It actually appears the L43 and L48 75mm guns in the STUGs did just fine against the T-34 and Sherman with the 128mm and even the 88mm L71 being overkill.

(1/5)TANKS! Assault Guns and Tank Hunters Sturmgeschütz


Very interesting and informative, some minor errors and inaccuracies I picked but overall not bad and got me thinking (yes I know multidirectional, often incoherent tangents again). 

The really interesting thread was the majority of purpose designed and adapted tank-destroyers were failures while the simpler, more reliable, Stugs (III & IV), Hetzers and, to a lesser extent due to small numbers Jadtpanzer IV were successful.  Basically tactics and employment of the 43 and 48 calibre 75mm gunned Stugs made them infinitely more successful than the other TDs.  The guns were perfectly adequate, the tactics made the difference.  The monster tanks and tank-destroyers look awesome and I love them to bits, but it appears that, what were in effect, low profile, highly mobile, self propelled, armoured field and anti-tank guns, used in close conjunction with infantry were infinitely more effective than the much fancier, more expensive stuff.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 04:09:10 PM by Volkodav »

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2014, 08:52:57 PM »
Are you after improved firepower or simply ease of supportability?

Ease of support was my top priority in this case.  An improvement in firepower is always welcome of course.  I am just not sure if a Panther turret would be able to have a 90mm M3 gun put in it.  Though there are claims that a Schmalturm from the F and E-50 would have been able to mount a 88mm L/71.  I only say this since one of the suppliers is the U.S. in the form of M46 and M47 tanks. 

Was the French 75 still a 70 caliber barrel or was it shorter?  I thought I read somewhere that it was a shorter barrel as well as using different rounds.  I need to do some more research on this.

On a tangent.  I have looked and not found much information on what happened to the Firefly tanks post Korea.

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 10:35:41 AM »
So I did some more research on the web tonight.  The CN 75-50 had a caliber of 61.5 from what I have found.  It also used different rounds than the L/70 which makes sense considering it was mounted in a tank weighing a third of a Panther with an auto-loader to boot.  In short it should fit in a Panther turret and have people scratching their heads while figuring out what is different. 

What I find of interest is that the Panther had a smaller turret ring than the Sherman by 3".  At least in the sources that I have found. 

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2014, 04:00:42 AM »
Interesting photo on the cover of the latest Panzerwrecks book:



Could almost be "the day women and children put an end to the fighting" ;)
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2014, 05:40:02 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2014, 05:43:42 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D



Beats me... ;)

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2014, 05:54:28 AM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D


Beats me... ;)

And here was I thinking that only the Japanese would think of using Minimi as an AFV weapon......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2014, 11:36:40 AM »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2014, 12:03:38 PM »
What is it with women and tanks?  ;D

Shouldn't that be "What is it with men, women and tanks?"

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2014, 06:59:53 PM »
What I meant is, when women get to pose on tanks, one of them always seem to manage to end up sitting astride the barrel....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2014, 07:21:07 PM »
This is, I think, what we are all skirting around - the obvious phallic impact of the massive great gun projecting from the front of a tank. :o

And, unless they're gay, there aren't many women who can resist the temptation of a massive, rigid phallic symbol. ;D
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 07:23:01 PM by Old Wombat »
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
This is, I think, what we are all skirting around - the obvious phallic impact of the massive great gun projecting from the front of a tank. :o

And, unless they're gay, there aren't many women who can resist the temptation of a massive, rigid phallic symbol. ;D


The owner of the Abbot SPG who got booked to paint the vehicle pink and take it on the London Gay and Lesbian Pride parade a few years ago would offer evidence to the contrary: fairly queing up for a sit on the barrel they were.... ;D

(Incidentally, his biggest problem was how to persuade his all-very-straight-male crew to volunteer for that one. The solution was simple: he lied to them. He told them they were painting the tank pink for a Revlon nail polish commercial, so they all volunteered in the belief that they were going to meet some supermodels.... ;D)

http://www.tanks-alot.co.uk/amnesty_international.htm
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 08:01:52 PM by Weaver »
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2014, 03:15:23 AM »
Ok, getting back to the Panther Tank….

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2014, 03:17:00 AM »
and here's an upgraded version by our very own Wyrmshadow:

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2014, 03:19:12 AM »
And a variant I hadn't seen before:





Apparently, one can even get a conversion for it (just to bring in the modelling aspect a little ;)):

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2014, 03:36:40 AM »
The things people find in scrap yards:

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2014, 12:34:27 PM »
Ahmad Syalabi has shared some images of his Schutzenpanzer Caracal (based on a modified Panther G hull) in the gallery at Track-Link forums.  Unfortunately hot-linking images is disabled so use the html provided to visit that page and see the WIP images and finished model. 

Description provided by Ahmad:
Quote
Building upon the idea of the Kratzchen, the Caracal APC was born.

The Caracal uses Panther G's chassis with some slight modifications -
- Engine was moved to the front right
- Slightly less armour than the Panther

The Caracal's designed to carry 10 men in addition to the 3 crew on board. Unlike the lightly armoured half tracks and armoured cars, the Caracals are able to engage in combat along side panzer grenadiers as well as the tanks that they accompany.


Schutzenpanzer Caracal (based on a modified Panther G hull)


More of Ahmad's work can be seen via this link to the Track-Link Gallery

Track-Link main page
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:57:15 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2014, 01:11:23 PM »
And a nice job that Caracel is too.

very convincing

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2014, 04:43:52 AM »
I drew this years ago using nothing more than my imagination:


Mobile SAM:





Now look what I find I can buy:



Very happy! ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2014, 12:36:11 PM »
Remember the one Buzzbomb scratchbuilt on a Panzer IV chassis?

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25195.0.html
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2014, 06:00:28 PM »
I drew this years ago using nothing more than my imagination:


Mobile SAM:





Now look what I find I can buy:



Very happy! ;)


I find it remarkable that you both came up with the same fin protecting armour sheets at the rear of the launcher.  Spooky, parallel evolution?   I prefer your's Greg with the slightly sloped ends to those pieces of armour though.

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2015, 04:51:09 AM »
Something that I just stumbled across:



I believe it is purely fictional.  That said though, one could combine a Panther kit with a Grille Ausf. M (see below)...

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2015, 07:04:18 AM »
Another:

« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 07:06:16 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2016, 06:06:33 AM »
Shortening Pahther: standard and Schmalturn




Offline finsrin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2016, 07:35:34 AM »
Great job on small-medium-large Panther. :)

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2016, 12:06:49 AM »
Greg's given us the front engined SPG a couple of posts above - what about a front engined Panther tank, Merkava-style? ???

(Sorry, no good at illustrations.)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2016, 03:57:18 AM »
what about a front engined Panther tank, Merkava-style? ???



Well there was this proposed 128mm gun armed "Jagdpanther II" which I believe put the engine in the front (or at least middle):



One can get a kit for it:


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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2016, 04:00:58 AM »
"Kaetzchen" APC with elements of the Panther chassis:




And a fictional(?) Panther based APC:


« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 04:07:36 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2016, 04:24:56 AM »
^^^^^
That pair of APC are marvels!!

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2016, 10:02:28 AM »
Section taken from first model (recon or command version) can be grafted in second one in order to produce the PANTHERKAVA. Of course open, it is WWII.
Hehehe!

« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 10:04:47 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2016, 02:11:14 AM »
YSI! I am loving these designs!! They look marvelous -- great imagination combined with some fine art skill  :-*

Please keep them coming! :)
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2016, 04:08:03 AM »
^^^^ thanks!!! I only need time to re-do some of them in 3D styrene  ;) :)

Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2016, 05:58:19 AM »
Take yer Panther-Kava and put a Jagdpanther casemate on it and you'll have a Baby Elefant.  ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2016, 07:44:47 PM »
Take yer Panther-Kava and put a Jagdpanther casemate on it and you'll have a Baby Elefant.  ;D

Damn you!

Now I have Mancini's "Baby Elephant Walk" stuck in my head.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2016, 09:49:44 PM »
Take yer Panther-Kava and put a Jagdpanther casemate on it and you'll have a Baby Elefant.  ;D

Damn you!

Now I have Mancini's "Baby Elephant Walk" stuck in my head.

Not stuck in my head but that tune pops up every time I read or hear the phrase "baby elephant", or see film footage of the real thing.

Associative imprinting is such a powerful tool!
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2016, 10:53:13 PM »
All cool, streaming all sorts of weird non-stickable stuff to clear my head now.  May put some on I-tunes just to p my wife off next time she drives my car.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2016, 09:34:11 PM »
 ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2016, 09:52:58 AM »
What if arguably some of the best WWII tank designs are mixed to produce the BEST ONE.


Offline tanktastic43

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2016, 09:54:41 AM »
That looks so cool!

tt43.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2016, 10:54:47 AM »
The Cent turret on the Panther works, it really works.  I suppose the issue is for the back story the Centurion hull and drive train was probably more reliable than the Panthers so why would you do it?

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2016, 02:40:54 PM »
The Cent turret on the Panther works, it really works.  I suppose the issue is for the back story the Centurion hull and drive train was probably more reliable than the Panthers so why would you do it?

Hot War 1946/47; insufficient Centurion hulls; left-over Panther hulls; German capacity to make more with existing machinery; fitted with modified Centurion turrets, engines & drive-trains.
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2016, 04:11:04 PM »
The Cent turret on the Panther works, it really works.  I suppose the issue is for the back story the Centurion hull and drive train was probably more reliable than the Panthers so why would you do it?

OK, you are right. I correct: "... to produce the COOLEST ONE"

Quote
Hot War 1946/47; insufficient Centurion hulls; left-over Panther hulls; German capacity to make more with existing machinery; fitted with modified Centurion turrets, engines & drive-trains.

Nice alternative.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 04:13:52 PM by ysi_maniac »

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2016, 09:21:03 PM »
Take ysi-maniac's Panther/Centurion bash, mix in tankmodeler's Israeli Panthers idea (LINK!) and take it a bit further:
Israeli re-engined Jagdpanther with an L7 gun, maybe some ERA?
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2016, 04:24:58 AM »
Random idea:  combine Jagdpanther with gun from Brummbär:


+
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Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2016, 01:10:52 AM »
What if arguably some of the best WWII tank designs are mixed to produce the BEST ONE.




So it would seem imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Or an attempt to make money!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371802417683?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Hope that works.

Offline tahsin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2017, 05:32:47 PM »
I was checking old files when I was somehow inspired to check what this Russian modelling site was up to recently. Not entirely Panther related in the the first link is but an armoured vehicle (at least tested), a Tiger with the 75mm (possibly tested) and finally a TOW Panther and I don't really think that it was ever tested...

https://www.dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=16642

https://www.dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=16747

https://www.dishmodels.ru/gshow.htm?p=16791

« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 05:34:52 PM by tahsin »

Offline jcf

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2017, 11:25:22 PM »
Well, as the TOW Panther is entirely fictional, it seems likely it was
never 'tested'.

 ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2017, 02:22:21 AM »
Well, as the TOW Panther is entirely fictional, it seems likely it was
never 'tested'.

 ;D

Oh come on Jon, how can you be so sceptical?  I am sure someone will 'produce' proof that it was planned and would have turned the battle in the final days...
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2017, 06:08:50 PM »
Be slightly more believable in Syrian or Lebanese colours (ca. 1980/1985?).
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline tahsin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2017, 07:29:50 PM »
Well, as the TOW Panther is entirely fictional, it seems likely it was
never 'tested'.

 ;D

Thus matching the definition of Whiff. Though I think German WW II missiles were too small bother modelling. Maybe some French missiles of the 1950s or French vehicles? Or a Wehrmacht that somehow survived with equipment and their wire guided Cobras?

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2017, 06:33:09 AM »
Does anyone know if you can get 1/35 decals for the Panther tanks the French used (see below for example)?


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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2017, 03:36:14 PM »
I have a feeling that those are of the same tank. I can see the same rust marks as on the turret & front plate of the top image in the second (just visible under the re-painting).

However, in answer to your question: Not the foggiest. :)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2018, 02:00:42 AM »
German Schmalturn on T-34 hull is a good choice IMO.


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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2019, 02:39:48 AM »
Random idea:  Panther with Oscillating Turret.  Maybe even just use a turret from an AMX-13 and say that it was either a testbed vehicle or an upgrade?
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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2020, 03:12:05 AM »
I drew this years ago using nothing more than my imagination:


Mobile SAM:





Now look what I find I can buy:



Very happy! ;)


I find it remarkable that you both came up with the same fin protecting armour sheets at the rear of the launcher.  Spooky, parallel evolution?   I prefer your's Greg with the slightly sloped ends to those pieces of armour though.



Turns out that my image did inspire the model kit. :smiley:
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 03:07:39 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Story

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2020, 08:53:33 PM »
AIRFIX box art offers the mundane "Drive on the Suez" WIFF.



https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/7/4/8/181748-12155-pristine.jpg
https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/3/0/5/109305-12155-pristine.jpg

Probably requires T-34 style extended range external fuel tanks and air intake sand filters.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2020, 03:06:29 AM »
All sorts of whiffer there. :smiley:
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2020, 01:52:09 AM »
Take one Bergepanther add 20mm cannon but remove other stuff and turn into an improvised APC akin to a Sherman Kangaroo.

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: Panther tank and Jagdpanther
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2020, 05:38:41 PM »
Turning a JagdPanther into a BergePanther has been on my list for a while.
Gun out, Winch in sort of thing.
Maybe even a M88 type Crane setup.