Author Topic: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????  (Read 1775 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2017, 10:21:59 AM »
Thank's ScranJ51
The Wever thing is derived from his foresight before his death - re the imperative need for the Luftwaffe to have and use long-rang heavy bombers against Germany's enemies! Something I think he was proven correct...

Im open to other suggestions mate  ;)

For me personally, Blamey became too much of a political populist animal and was very unpopular with his subordinates - sorry having a close affiliation with the 39th Battalion, 'Rabbits caught in the spotlight' doesn't go down with the men fighting and dying aimlessly for Blamey to divert criticism from MacArthur  ::)   

M.A.D

If I recall correctly Blamey was actually saying that the way to fight the Japanese was to chase them down their rabbit holes, not that the 39th had run like rabbits as often assumed.  The thing that stuns me is the tall poppy cutting of Blamey while Bennet, who from everything I have read appears to have been an egocentric incompetent, is put on a pedestal.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2017, 11:00:34 AM »

Quote
If I recall correctly Blamey was actually saying that the way to fight the Japanese was to chase them down their rabbit holes, not that the 39th had run like rabbits as often assumed.  The thing that stuns me is the tall poppy cutting of Blamey while Bennet, who from everything I have read appears to have been an egocentric incompetent, is put on a pedestal.

Fair enough mate.
But speaking and knowing these men of the 39th, Id have to take their point of view and experience, as they were there, as opposed to a later revisionist perspective of trying to save ones [Blamey's] dignity.

But this isn't really the subject at hand.

As per usual, I value your opinion and input Volkodav


M.A.D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 12:32:59 PM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 01:13:45 PM »

Quote
If I recall correctly Blamey was actually saying that the way to fight the Japanese was to chase them down their rabbit holes, not that the 39th had run like rabbits as often assumed.  The thing that stuns me is the tall poppy cutting of Blamey while Bennet, who from everything I have read appears to have been an egocentric incompetent, is put on a pedestal.

Fair enough mate.
But speaking and knowing these men of the 39th, Id have to take their point of view and experience, as they were there, as opposed to a later revisionist perspective of trying to save ones [Blamey's] dignity.

But this isn't really the subject at hand.

As per usual, I value your opinion and input Volkodav


M.A.D

Just read this again.....Sorry Volkodav, please don't interpret my statement as me accusing you of being a revisionist! Contrary , I'm meaning the person you've quoted Blamey was actually saying that the way to fight the Japanese was to chase them down their rabbit holes - I think it was his Adjutant??

M.A.D

Offline ScranJ51

  • Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!
Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 02:10:29 PM »
M.A.D

I understand about Wever - I had to brief about him on Staff Course.  Agree that had he survived - things may well have been VERY different!!

Re Collins - RAN.

I base my proposal on both his wartime record plus the fact he spend over 6 years as Head of the Navy effectively.  While the RAN reached the post-war zenith in the early-mid 60's with 2 Carriers etc. which were acquired during or just after Collin's time - so I believe he would have been influential in their acquisition and planning around building the Fleet Air Arm etc.  I'm not sure Farncomb had as much influence post war.  Just so you know - my father served on HMAS SHROPSHIRE under both these guys - so I may be a little bias.

I stick by my guns about Moreshead - the more I learn the more I think he is YOUR man for what you want.


I'll get back to you about the RAAF.  One to consider might be Schergher (did I spell that right?  32years RAAF you think I'd know how) - I need to do some more digging.

Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 05:56:21 PM »
Thank you ScranJ51, you've afforded me some great insight, and I greatly appreciate your assistance!

It sounds like you've had an interesting life and career thus far!

I got your PM thanks, and will delve into it asap!

M.A.D

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2017, 02:28:27 PM »
Found something interesting on Blamey, an AWM review of a book on him, I may need to get a copy.

https://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j34/bridgerev/

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
Found something interesting on Blamey, an AWM review of a book on him, I may need to get a copy.

https://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j34/bridgerev/

Thank's Paul, an interesting quick read  ;)
By my own admittance, I may be biased against Blamey, but more I read about him, I think he might have sufficed in a desperate political environment of politician's/population desperation at the moment of hysteria about impending Japanese invasion, as opposed to his true command and tactician capacity. I'm still of the opinion that it's easy for historians to write/interprete/reinterprete history years, decades after, when those who were there, personally experienced and physically bleed are overlooked. But I digress..... I really wonder how effective Blamey would have been post-WWII, as an organiser, a listener to younger front line men who saw and understood modern post-WWII technology, tactics and doctrine, which deviated from what Blamey knew or comprehended.
I have a numb feeling in my mind that in post-WWII Blamey might have been a little like Goring in a sense, when he established the Luftwaffe - Somewhat living in a romantic past as a war hero, wanting to appease his political masters, maybe even his own political aspirations, when the world had moved on and his focus on task of designing, implementing a new ADF.

No disrespect intended to you Paul or Blamey  :-[

But as Greg often says:
Quote
"remember, this is what if
!" ;)

M.A.D
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 03:46:50 PM by M.A.D »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2017, 06:08:53 PM »
Ok, disclaimer first up: I'm a South Australian, so I may be a little biased.

However, I'd like to put Sydney Rowell into the mix. The secret is not to look into his war history (the colour of which depends on whether the author is pro- or anti-Blamey ... & I've yet to read a history that wasn't one or the other) but, rather, at who he mingled with between the wars & what he actually did post-war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Rowell

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/rowell-sir-sydney-fairbairn-11575

https://www.awm.gov.au/people/P10676605/
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2017, 06:33:52 PM »
Thank's for your interest and contribution Old Wombat (Even though you are a crow eater  ;D

Thank's for the links mate!
Between the links supplied by yourself, volkodav and 
ScranJ51, I'm getting educated  :P

M.A.D

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2017, 02:50:36 AM »
I think he might have sufficed in a desperate political environment of politician's/population desperation at the moment of hysteria about impending Japanese invasion, as opposed to his true command and tactician capacity.

I believe his capacity as a commander and tactician was well proven during WW1.  Not only did he participate right at the front line in places like Gallipoli (incl leading patrols to gather intel') but also as a Staff Officer on the Western front under bother Sir William Birdwood and Monash.  and whilst many like to deride the role of 'Staff Officers' remember that in reality, only the best and brightest were given these roles.  In fact, his contributions to the successful battles at the end of the war (The Battle of Hamel, Battle of Amiens and the Battle of the Hindenburg Line) were highly regarded.  In fact, one could argue that these laid down the pattern for many subsequent combined arms operations for the next 100 odd years.  Not a small undertaking.

During WWII, one could argue that he was a 'prisoner of circumstance' being forced to share the limelight with Douglas MacArthur (something the latter probably wouldn't have liked...).  Moreover, I find the following statement by official historian, Dudley McCarthy, quite telling:

Quote
At the very peak of this leadership development was General Blamey himself. His greatness was demonstrated almost daily by a knowledge unparalleled in Australia of how an army should be formed and put to work; by his exercise of the vital field command at the same time as he kept within his grasp a vastly detailed control of the Australian Army as a whole; by his sagacity and strength in meeting the rapidly changing demands of a difficult political situation; by his ability speedily to encompass the requirements of the new war and plan far ahead of the events of the day as he controlled them; by his generally unappreciated humanity.

I really wonder how effective Blamey would have been post-WWII, as an organiser, a listener to younger front line men who saw and understood modern post-WWII technology, tactics and doctrine, which deviated from what Blamey knew or comprehended.

By all accounts Blamey was extremely interested in technological innovation and was a keen advocate for them, being a leading proponent for introducing aspects such as tanks and the like.  He was also shown to advocate the development of appropriate tactics and strategies for their deployment.  This was shown both in the military and the Police force. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't have continued to be relevant post war had the opportunity presented itself  As it was, one of the things he devoted himself after the war was the promotion of the welfare of ex-service personnel.  An admirable undertaking.

Also, remember that he was not one of the 'old guard'.  In fact, it is often overlooked that he was directly involved in creation of the RAAF as an independent service arm - again showing a willingness to adapt.

I have a numb feeling in my mind that in post-WWII Blamey might have been a little like Goring in a sense, when he established the Luftwaffe - Somewhat living in a romantic past as a war hero, wanting to appease his political masters, maybe even his own political aspirations, when the world had moved on and his focus on task of designing, implementing a new ADF.

On what basis do you make this statement?

I recommend you have a closer read of his life and reconsider his abilities.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Australia's Guderian, Dönitz, Wever..????
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
Greg, in the interests of the forum, topic and foresight of what I’m trying to achieve, I wish to relinquish and abstain from replying to this valid question.
I don’t want to get bogged down in a quagmire of words - :(

M.A.D