Author Topic: NZ Defence Acquisitions  (Read 3793 times)

Offline KiwiZac

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NZ Defence Acquisitions
« on: December 16, 2016, 09:06:18 AM »
Every so often someone suggests the RNZAF should've gone for/should get Gripen. What're y'all's thoughts about that?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2016, 09:27:16 AM »
Your country can't afford them Zak    ;)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2016, 12:47:42 PM »
Your country can't afford them Zak    ;)

Well, Saab does lease Gripen;)  Negotiations on a Gripen lease deal for the Slovak AF just stalled. Maybe jump on that opening?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2016, 02:27:12 PM »
NZ is actually pretty well off, they just have some weird accounting processes that makes defence acquisitions more difficult, combined with an entrenched isolationism in some quarters that makes justifying defence spending very hard at times.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2016, 02:31:12 PM »
On a defence site I belong to an individual made an interesting claim (that I imaging will see him firmly put in his box by the mods in short order), that though probably impractical, if not just plain impossible, sounded very interesting, JAS39M flying from HTMS Chakri Naruebet

Offline upnorth

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2016, 03:16:51 PM »
Your country can't afford them Zak    ;)

Well, Saab does lease Gripen;)  Negotiations on a Gripen lease deal for the Slovak AF just stalled. Maybe jump on that opening?

As the Hungarians have learned in the past few years, leased fighters get quite expensive if you crash them. They damaged one beyond repair in a landing incident here in the Czech Republic in 2015.

They lost another in the same time period when the pilot had to eject near their home base.

As the aircraft still belong to Sweden, Hungary was not happy to be presented with the bill for replacement aircraft.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2016, 02:39:42 AM »
Every so often someone suggests the RNZAF should've gone for/should get Gripen. What're y'all's thoughts about that?

IMHO the Gripen would be an excellent choice for the RNZAF.  Far better in fact than the F-16s that were looked at.  That said, I understand and can agree with the New Zealand Govt's choice to do away with their fighter capability.  Take the emotion out of it and one can see that it was far better for New Zealand to spend their limited Defence budget on helicopters, army and the like.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2016, 05:18:10 PM »
Every so often someone suggests the RNZAF should've gone for/should get Gripen. What're y'all's thoughts about that?

IMHO the Gripen would be an excellent choice for the RNZAF.  Far better in fact than the F-16s that were looked at.  That said, I understand and can agree with the New Zealand Govt's choice to do away with their fighter capability.  Take the emotion out of it and one can see that it was far better for New Zealand to spend their limited Defence budget on helicopters, army and the like.

Or even more to the point P-8A and a HALE/MALE for EEZ and regional surveillance missions, as well as strategic transports able to support their Antarctic missions.  Not as sexy as fighters but far more economically and diplomatically important for a country in NZs position.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2016, 10:41:49 PM »
Every so often someone suggests the RNZAF should've gone for/should get Gripen. What're y'all's thoughts about that?

IMHO the Gripen would be an excellent choice for the RNZAF.  Far better in fact than the F-16s that were looked at.  That said, I understand and can agree with the New Zealand Govt's choice to do away with their fighter capability.  Take the emotion out of it and one can see that it was far better for New Zealand to spend their limited Defence budget on helicopters, army and the like.

Or even more to the point P-8A and a HALE/MALE for EEZ and regional surveillance missions, as well as strategic transports able to support their Antarctic missions.  Not as sexy as fighters but far more economically and diplomatically important for a country in NZs position.

Off topic a bit but along the same lines, I've always thought that the C-17 purchase Canada did was a very sensible decision ---  Now a RNZAF C-17 would be something ---

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 02:57:18 AM »
Now a RNZAF C-17 would be something ---

It was seriously looked at though deemed impossible due to there only being one C-17 left available (NZ needed at least two),  All others are already allocated and the C-17 is out of production.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2016, 03:07:36 AM »
They do have a ongoing requirement for C-130/B-757 as well as P-3K replacements.  It is not urgent though - at least for the P3Ks.  In recent months a RFI has been conducted that focussed on the transport requirements with a secondary inquiry regarding a possible link to a surveillance capability.  IMHO, the leading contender is a KC390/P-99 combination though it is be no means certain and certainly does contain some limitations.  Other contenders are:

Some C-130Js
Some A330/A320 mixes including leased options
C-2/P-1 pairing - a very capable, albeit possibly expensive option
A-400Ms
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Re: Saab JAS-39 Gripen
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2016, 03:09:33 AM »
Or even more to the point P-8A and a HALE/MALE for EEZ and regional surveillance missions

The NZDF should just be merged in with the ADF to create an 'ANZAC' Defence Force and a few more P-8s/UAVs added to the Australian order.  Add another couple of squadrons of F-35s, a couple more AWDs, a third LHD, new FFH class and make us all happy... ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2016, 09:27:54 AM »
I'd better be careful here but I can't see a merged ANZAC DF working, there are too many cultural differences.  From what I've seen first hand the Kiwi's are actually (in general) more professional and proficient than their Australian counterparts in many instances (possible exception being RAAF Engineering which is pretty much worlds best practice across the board). 

NZs procurement and naval engineering / project management is in general far superior, their problem being political disinterest and limited money.  I suspect this is because they haven't had their engineering and support organisations gutted in the way the Australian Army and RANs were in the 90s and 2000s and political disinterest can actually be preferable to excessive political interference, i.e. the total wrecking of a reasonable system in the late 90s for political gain and then adding layer upon layer of compliance and non-decision making to address the problems created by the originally politically inspired reorganisation.

The system that successfully acquired the Leopards, FFGs, Fremantles, F/A-18, Seahawks, Blackhawks, ANZACs and Collins to name a few (with no major program failures to mention) was replaced with a very bureaucratic system that resulted in the Super Sea Sprite, FFGUP, LCM2000, MU90, MRH90, ARH Tiger, M-113 upgrade, multiple attempts at an ANZAC upgrade before something reasonable resulted (but with platform issues yet to be addressed), Armidale Class Patrol Boats, Vigilaire, etc.  Basically procurement and project management became more onerous and difficult, accountability disappeared, ownership was often impossible to determine, service requirements were often ignored, industrial requirements were ignored except where pork was involved, and at the end of the day many decisions were made personally by the PM.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2016, 12:37:05 PM »
I'd better be careful here but I can't see a merged ANZAC DF working, there are too many cultural differences.  From what I've seen first hand the Kiwi's are actually (in general) more professional and proficient than their Australian counterparts in many instances (possible exception being RAAF Engineering which is pretty much worlds best practice across the board). 

I'd concur with that, at least as far as their Army is concerned.  They have little but they do a lot with it and often for far longer than the Australian Army does.   Their M41s, Scorpions lasted long past their use by dates and were still kept going.   Their LAV-IIIs were a smart choice as their replacements, for use overseas as part of peace-keeping forces.

In reality, New Zealand doesn't need a large defence force.  It is isolated enough to only worry if a potential enemy gains a foothold on either PNG or the east cost of Australia.  As neither is likely, they have little to fear.  What they do need is long range maritime recce assets, for asset protection, and Search and Rescue, far out to sea.  They also need a small long range transport group, to support their forces when they are deployed overseas.   As far as their navy is concerned, several Frigates/Destroyers and some close inshore surveillance craft should be sufficient to protect the Cook Islands and New Zealand itself, while also allowing it to protect it's sea assets.

Offline KiwiZac

  • Who said Kiwis can't fly...though this one can organise for a kit of the Fletcher FU24 to be produced!
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Re: NZ Defence Acquisitions
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2016, 03:01:51 PM »
I'd like for us to get P-1s to replace the P-3Ks, based on looks and novelty.
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