Author Topic: M.A.D's 'Alternative Australian Defence Force Order of Battle' Questions please  (Read 31429 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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I would like to see the ADF being more geared to an Israeli-like mentality of appreciating and learning from one’s own and others combat experience and military trends, as opposed to the reality of Australia’s near subservient follower of American and British trend setting.

I would caution against people putting the Israeli Defence Force (and by default their equipment) into some sort of 'ideal' example.  The mythology of the Israeli preeminence as a fighting force is just that, a myth!  If anything, it is simply an example of a force fighting for their lives surrounded by less than competent enemies.  Moreover, having had a bit to do with some of their equipment/companies/operating methodologies in recent years I wouldn't necessarily rate them any better than their US or other counterparts...often worse.

Moreover, when you talk about Australia following the US/UK trends, maybe you should also look to what Israel has done...I don't see them being so different or for that matter using anything different in terms of equipment.

Quote
The psyche that first Britain, and then, as now, the United States would come and save us in time of crisis/war.

Hmmm...I somehow think the various Israeli wars (eg. 1973 Yom Kippur War) might have been slightly different if the US in particular hadn't been willing to supply equipment.
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Offline Weaver

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The A-5's linear bomb bay already had fuel tankage in it, two fuel tanks as well as the munitions store.  There was a refueling system developed to replace the munitions with a hose and drogue unit; there's even a photo of one refueling another which is also refueling a third.  It wouldn't be that difficult to develop dedicated KA-5's to support the A-5/RA-5/EA-5 fleet in extending range.

Yes I know, but they don't fit efficiently in the available space because they have to be able to fit in a long tube that extends through sever fuselage frames and slide out backwards. If you had rectilinear bag tanks fitted between the frames, that extended to the corners of the available volume, you'd have significantly more fuel.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Hmmm...I wonder about a linear bombbay that still ejects conventional munitions out the back?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Weaver

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Hmmm...I wonder about a linear bombbay that still ejects conventional munitions out the back?

Very inflexible.

If you only want to drop one out your three bombs, the CofG moves forwards.

If you want to drop a new bomb that's an inch wider (that maybe you didn't design), tough.

If you want to launch a missile, it pretty much has to be specially designed for your aircraft.

If you want to carry a recce pack instead: tough.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Kelmola

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I would like to see the ADF being more geared to an Israeli-like mentality of appreciating and learning from one’s own and others combat experience and military trends, as opposed to the reality of Australia’s near subservient follower of American and British trend setting.
Israel-like mentality? As in "we've been denied Mirages, so let's make a knockoff copy (Nesher) and then jury-rig it with J79 (Kfir) because those are all we can have"? Or "we made a light fighter cheaper than F-16 but almost as capable (Lavi), but let's not manufacture it at all since our main weapons supplier told not to because it would eat into their market"?

It's more like Israel has always had to make do with whatever is available rather than having a free choice, and the last few decades only the US has been willing to sell them equipment with no strings attached regarding their deployment (yet direct competition with US equipment by local industry is still frowned upon).

Offline The Big Gimper

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Hmmm...I wonder about a linear bombbay that still ejects conventional munitions out the back?


Very inflexible.

If you only want to drop one out your three bombs, the CofG moves forwards.

If you want to drop a new bomb that's an inch wider (that maybe you didn't design), tough.

If you want to launch a missile, it pretty much has to be specially designed for your aircraft.

If you want to carry a recce pack instead: tough.


The RA-5C had for its Nuclear strike role a linear bomb bay.





The technical issue was that the Vigilante wasn't looking very promising in the strike role anyway. The linear bomb bay scheme sounded nice on paper, but it was a nightmare in practice. The bomb bay tube ran up the fuselage between the engines, and since it was much longer the nuclear store, expendable fuel tanks were tacked on in the rear of the store. During a strike, the entire assembly was popped out the tail with an explosive cartridge driving it down launch rails. Not only did the scheme prove unreliable, the store also tended to "draft" behind the aircraft, preventing the pilot from laying it down accurately. The linear bomb bay would never actually be used for weapons delivery in practice.

And here is what happens it falls out while taking off: “Ah…605, I BELIEVE YOU LEFT A TANK BEHIND”
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:00:02 AM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline Rickshaw

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I am sure the problem of the nuclear weapon "being dragged along" could have been solved relatively easily with some drag inducing devices on the weapon.   As for "accuracy" it all depends on what sort you're looking for.  If it is pin-point accuracy, I don't think that will ever be achieved.  City-busting accuracy, could be easily achieved.  The USN was looking for the former, not the latter.  The RAAF would like it but as the primary job of the RA-5C would be destroying Indonesian or Chinese cities, I think they'd accept the limitations inherent in the design.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 09:07:49 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline M.A.D

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Rickshaw
Mate, I had the opportunity to speak to a couple of highly regarded RAEME guru’s yesterday, regarding the Panhard EBR and the feasibility of relocating its engine, and how it might affect its differential arrangement between its four sets of wheels’ arrangement!
Both agreed, that it wouldn’t be much of a technical issue to move the engine and gearbox rearward, as the vehicle wasn’t amphibious, its CG wasn’t a fundamental issue! In fact, they agreed that by moving the engine to the rear, as I proposed, the complication of the four driveshafts could probably be eliminated and a simpler arrangement could be applied. They also made note of the cooling arrangement and crew comfort would be substantially improved, with a rear-mounted engine arrangement, with separating firewall!

Greg, I enquired into your suggestion of adopting the German Sd.Kfz. 234 8x8 armoured car. One of the RAEME guru’s, made note of an issue he states that they’ve had with the LAV-25/ASLAV series, that he might envisage with a ‘Conon 75mm SA50’ gun armed Sd.Kfz. 234, being that of a disproportionate ‘top-heavy CG’, when operating over harsh open terrain, like that found up North! It was interesting that he noted this ‘top-heavy CG’ with the LAV’s because the American adoption of the vehicle elected to use smaller diameter wheels, as opposed to the larger wheels of the original MOWAG Piranha 8x8 it was based on! (interesting and duly noted, as I’ve operated in LAV’s over the years!). But saying this he admits he’s no expert on the Sd.Kfz. 234!

So at this stage, the Panhard EBR is looking a good option for this Alternative ADF ORBAT, for this given timeframe, with the following modifications/incorporations:
- The original EBR’s four inner metal wheels are replaced with four additional rubber tyres, as used on the main-drive wheels.
- Paramount to the selection of the Panhard EBR, by the Australian Army, was the designs capability to be modified to have its engine relocated, so as to give far better and sensible access for maintenance and replacement in the field. To achieve this, Panhard, in cooperation with the Australian Directorate of Armoured Fighting Vehicles Production, redesigned, built, and tested two ‘modified EBR’s to validate the designs capability to meet the Australian Army’s requirements, before it committed to contract and licences-production in Australia.
-To relocate and accommodate the new diesel engine [engine type/design still to be decided!] to the rear chassis and body area required the complete elimination of the rear drivers compartment and steering gear.
Other modifications and incorporation included-
-Attachments for external long-range fuel tanks;
-Attachment points for water Jerry Can’s
-The incorporation of the longer barrels, higher velocity ‘Conon 75mm SA50’ gun, which offered superior anti-tank capability.

P.S. As both a side note and of some relevance to this Alternative ADF ORBAT, I might have finally made some headway in obtaining more information and a contact re Australian Army’s ‘Project Waler’ of 1970-80’s! Which I'm very excited about!!

M.A.D



Offline M.A.D

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Apophenia
Re Reply #3
I too enquired as to these RAEME guru’s input regarding the Daimler-Benz MB 507C 12-cylinder liquid-cooled diesel engine. They said that if the MB 507 was stereo-typically anything like the MTU MB 838, that they’d worked on with the Leopard’s, then they’d support the notion of reverse engineering it! One concern they brought up, was our then experience (re metal ergie) with aluminium casting. But saying this he would like to think that if the program was deemed so nationalistically important, we should have been able to meet the challenge! Which is reassuring! So perhaps this is our diesel engine for our re-engined Centurion tanks, what with 800hp and all that toque?

M.A.D

Offline apophenia

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M.A.D: I haven't found a great deal of info on the MB 507. I wonder if it had steel cylinder inserts? That would certainly simplify casting the aluminium block.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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It's more like Israel has always had to make do with whatever is available rather than having a free choice, and the last few decades only the US has been willing to sell them equipment with no strings attached regarding their deployment (yet direct competition with US equipment by local industry is still frowned upon).

Rubbish!  Israel has certainly not been lacking for choice of weapons.  And as for "strings attached", there are always strings attached no matter who sells!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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an issue he states that they’ve had with the LAV-25/ASLAV series, that he might envisage with a ‘Conon 75mm SA50’ gun armed Sd.Kfz. 234, being that of a disproportionate ‘top-heavy CG’, when operating over harsh open terrain, like that found up North!


I suppose it really depends upon the role you want the vehicle to take.  Personally, I believe a version derived from the Sd.Kfz. 234/2 with 50mm cannon would be more than sufficient for most encounters.  If you want to give it more anti-tank punch, maybe equip it with an early ATGM.




In fact, the Sd.Kfz. 234/1 with 20mm cannon would probably suffice as well - same solution re tanks.


« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:34:40 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline finsrin

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Modernized Sd.Kfz. 234 with 21st century armament, sensors, armor, engine could be built 1/35 if not 1/1.

Offline M.A.D

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I haven't forgotten this Post! Still working away at it, with some appreciated support and cooperation of fellow forum members!!

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Its a sad sad day  :(
My Word document of forty odd pages of my of Alternative ADF ORBAT backstory and supporting information has been corrupted :o
So much effort and so much work ........Ahhhhhhh Frustrating!!!!!

My apologies to all those who have thus far contributed and supported me! I will have to contact forum members and request you send me these profiles again  :-[
Back to the drawing board :(

M.A.D

Offline finsrin

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Uh Oh,,, Now the Russians are meddling in your computer !

Offline tankmodeler

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An early 60s SdKfz 234 built by the Swedes in the 50s and sold to Australia, could work. New diesel engine, modified 57mm/6 pdr in the turret and a couple of SS-11s on a rack on the turret as part of a scouting/tank hunting force in the Aussie Northern territories in the mid-late 60s.

??

Paul

Offline M.A.D

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Thank's for the idea tankmodeler / Paul
My notion of less alliance and dependence on the Britain/U.S. would have the ADF being more open to alternative options, if it meets their needs/requirements!

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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SITREP

Ok, after being very down on my hard and enjoyable efforts (more than six months of work, research and numerous assistance of talented profilers from this website) being lost, I think I'm getting my mojo back.
I was really wanting to do my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT' backstory all in one.
But I'm now I'm seriously considering posting the backstory in smaller segments, thanks to the kind efforts and talent s like your Mark (jonesthetank)!

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Ok, it's been far to long since I've visited this  :(
As I've conveyed, I lost 80% of my backstory due to a computer crash, but I'm in the process of reconfiguring my story!!

As an acknowledgement of the amazing profile work this forums members have been so generous in supporting me, I'm posting some edited profiles to tantalize!!

First off work by dy031101 - Thank you Donny for your talent  :P


M.A.D

« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 03:20:39 PM by M.A.D »

Offline M.A.D

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The exceptional work of CiTrus90, thank you Luca for your contribution  :P

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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The exquisite detailed work of scorchio  :P

Thank you my friend for your patients and countless modifications to my requests!



M.A.D
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 04:40:44 AM by M.A.D »

Offline ScranJ51

  • Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!
so - when will we all see your ORBAT?    8)
Fast Jet, Fast Prop, Fast Racing Cars - thats me!!

Offline M.A.D

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so - when will we all see your ORBAT?    8)

Thanks for your interest ScranJ51
Im hoping to begin posting at the beginning of February my friend. :-[

Fortunately for me, generous forum members have graciously stepped forward and have been doing more and more specialised/tailored profiles pertaining to my backstory, which Im confident that you'll undoubtedly agree are well worth the wait, when you see them!  :P

M.A.D

     

Offline M.A.D

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G'day gents

Ok, I have another question pertaining to my on going Alternative Australian Defence Force Order of Battle

Quote
“During 1960, the RAAF started the process of evaluating a replacement for the CA-27 Sabre. Whilst the F-104G was a contender, the ultimate choice was for the Mirage IIIE. Dassault had experimentally built an Avon engined Mirage and had investigated air-air refuelling for it, however the final decision was to stay with the standard IIIE.  The variant was dubbed the Mirage IIIO, “O” being for “Orstralian”. The initial order was placed in late 1961.”

(Source: GAMD (CAC built CA-29) Mirage IIIO https://hars.org.au/gamd-cac-built-ca-29-mirage-iiio/ )

Now thank's to the amazing skills and talents of CiTrus90, I'm very excited to say that we (well Luca) have the
Quote
Avon engined Mirage
issue squared away  :P
But what I would like to lean on the forum's vast knowledge is in regards to 'Dassault's investigated air-air refuelling for the Avon engined Mirage IIIO'. Does anyone have any knowledge of what flight refuelling probe Dassault was investigating; or failing this, would anyone like to have an educated guess as to what flight refuelling probe Dassault might have come up with?  :-\

1/ a Mirage F1 fixed-nose mounted probe arrangement. (Can anyone enlighten me please as to when the fixed-nose mounted probe arrangement was incorporated into the Mirage !!!/Mirage 5 series, for the sake of time frame?);
 
2/ a starboard fixed externally fuselage plumbed probe arrangement as used on Israeli and South African derivatives of the Mirage - Kfir and Cheetah; oh and the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk of course?

3/ a wing leading edge-type flight refuelling probe - eg de Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen and North American FJ-2/3 Fury?'

4/ a drop tank mounted probe arrangement as utilised by many early carrier-based fighter-bombers - eg Douglas F4D-1 Skyray?

Ok, now saying this, if flight-refuelling wasn't permissible in 1961, when in real-world terms, that the Australian government/RAAF ordered the Mirage III, if I was to later upgrade my Mirage IIIO's with a flight-refuelling capability, which would be the most easiest and cost effective means of doing this - 1/,2/, 3/ or 4/?

P.S. I think it might be worth a go contacting and asking Dassault itself about this!

Keenly awaiting your reply and input  :P 


M.A.D
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:34:24 PM by M.A.D »