Author Topic: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?  (Read 1781 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« on: December 07, 2015, 02:58:52 AM »
Scenario inspired by this '50s poster (which easily looks like it could have come from the early '40s or even '30s:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline mrvr6

  • Accidentally created a Tejas….
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 03:14:34 AM »
final solution wouldnt have happened?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 08:14:39 AM »
Israel would have been an active national participant in the Allied cause?  It's size would have precluded more than a few units/air units/naval units but they would have been involved heavily in the Mediterranean and their losses would have more than likely been heavy.  National and personal survival tends to do that to people. 

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2015, 09:19:18 AM »
Pre-war, as well as Palestine another location considered for a Jewish home land was the Pilbara region in north west Australia, ironically the location of much of the resources exploitation that has been a cornerstone of the Australian economy for the last decade and a half.

Anyway back to the Palestine option there were considerable numbers of Jewish settlements in the area during the campaign against the ottoman empire during WWI with British Commonwealth forces finding these, along with the Palestinian Christian and the majority of Syrians (irrespective of ethnicity) far more friendly and helpful than the Bedouins.  It is conceivable that had the anti -French element in he foreign office and military been somehow diverted, the Arab / Wahhabist uprising liberating the oppressed people of the Middle East fiction could have been ignored and some sensible borders drawn up.  i.e. without the need to placate the "Arab Victors" there could have been an Israel, secular Palestine, Syria, Kurdistan and Iraq and hopefully no KSA or Gulf States.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 02:28:03 AM »
I can easily picture a P-40 or a Hawker Hurricane or perhaps a M.S.406 wearing the Star of David.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 11:27:47 AM »
final solution wouldnt have happened?

The Holocaust would still happen as Hitler was not only against Jews but also Gypsies, ethnic East-Europeans like Lituanians, Romanians & anyone with mental or severe physical disabilities etc.


The first Jewish settlers (from Russia) went to what later became Israel in 1909 ... so if well-off German Jews also went then, they could've established Israel (Britain being willing) & been in power by 1920.  Before WW2, they were more conciliatory & inclusive than modern Israel - you wouldn't see a separate Palistine / Israel (subject to any social & political power of the fundamentalist Jewish faction).  You may not see any of the Arab-Israeli wars developing at all.  As in the real world, you'd see many British & American Jews joining the IDF rather than the UK forces for the duration of WW2.

Between 1920 & 1942, Britain had precious little weaponry to spare -- maybe, like Spain, Israel would initially get a few French Schneider & St.Schamonds for self-defence - later getting Char B1s & Renault/Hotchkiss 35 etc until British armour was available ?
Israeli troops with British, later American, arms would probably see greater combat with Italian forces, than German in WW2.
IDF Hurricane & Beaufort ? ..... or just all the cast-offs like Hawker Furys, Dragons, Heyfords, Whitleys, Wellingtons & Manchesters with Vickers Mk.IVs, Matilda Is & old Cruisers for tanks ?  IDF would get Spitfires & Beaufighters eventually - say late 1944 onwards ?

What effect would an older & more established Israel have on arms design & manufacture ?  A modified (better & more reliable) Matilda II, Crusader, rifles etc or some home-grown Israeli designs ?  However they didn't have large local resources for manufacturing materials.


I can easily picture a P-40 or a Hawker Hurricane or perhaps a M.S.406 wearing the Star of David.
an Israeli Ms-406 sounds great :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 11:29:44 AM by raafif »

Offline upnorth

  • Distorting a reality near you.
  • Reinvented Austria and the Stuka....Now what?
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 03:05:35 PM »
A good twist might be for some of those Jewish settlers from Russia to retain some contacts there and to maybe be able to pull the strings to get some hardware from there. Not likely in reality, but good for story telling.

Imagine the Star of David on the Petlyakov Pe-2, Yak-3, Lavochkin La-5 and 7 or even the Shtumovik.
Pickled Wings, A Blog for Preserved Aircraft:
http://pickledwings.wordpress.com/

Beyond Prague, Traveling the Rest of the Czech Republic:
http://beyondprague.wordpress.com/

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 08:36:55 PM »
A good twist might be for some of those Jewish settlers from Russia to retain some contacts there and to maybe be able to pull the strings to get some hardware from there. Not likely in reality, but good for story telling.

Imagine the Star of David on the Petlyakov Pe-2, Yak-3, Lavochkin La-5 and 7 or even the Shtumovik.

Not as bizarre as it sounds.  Until 1956, the fUSSR was quite a friend to Israel.   It was the first nation to recognise the existence of Israel IIRC.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2015, 12:13:50 AM »
Here's an idea, both the Palestine and North West Australia Jewish settlement plans proceed, perhaps with Australia being seen as a safe zone, a fall back if Palestine failed.

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 04:44:31 AM »
comments on cams ?

What was the reasoning behind the blue / brown cam anyway ?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 04:46:11 AM by raafif »

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 06:47:04 AM »
What was the reasoning behind the blue / brown cam anyway ?

I believe that the Earth Brown and Dark Sea Blue on top and light grey on the bottom camouflage colours, which were adopted mainly for Israeli ground attack aircraft in the mid '50s, were devised to make attacking aircraft less conspicuous from above - i.e. it being a mix of the Mediterranean sea blue and the brown land.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: What if Israel existed as an independent nation before WW2?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 07:06:53 AM »
Instead of attacking via the Sinai, this was devised for aircraft that formated far out to the west over the sea then attacked up the Nile valley so blue & brown would be better than a sandy cam.

" Prior to the October 29, 1956 Suez War, the IAF experimented with a brown and blue over grey scheme. The use of blue in the upper surface scheme were adopted to coincide with operation "Moked" (Focus) which entailed forming up over the Mediterranean Sea, away from Egyptian early warning radar, prior to heading into Egypt from different way points. All ground attack jets participating in the Six-Day War namely; Ouragan, Mystere IV, Super Mystere, Vautour and Fouga Magister were painted in gloss hard edge masked colors consisting of RAL8008 brown, RAL5008 blue over RAL7044 grey. "