Author Topic: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 11253 times)

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2015, 08:58:31 AM »
I've always wondered about the asymmetry of the Saladin's turret.  I think I'd prefer a new turret, with a 30mm Rarden and four side mounted, elevating Swingfires, to the twin Swingfire, 76mm version.  That would eliminate the need for the mounting structures and of course, provide more room in a rear overhang for reloads.   8)

Alternatively, you could go with just 8 Swingfires on  the turret rear which elevate to fire...  :-*

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2015, 10:03:07 AM »
There was a Ferret turret with four elevating Swingfires, but it was only a one-manner with a 7.62mm for backup. RARDENs have been put into one-man turrets, but since it's a clip-feed job there's still a manual 'loader' task to perform.

Wonder what the Delco turret with a 25mm bushmaster + 2 x TOWs would look like on it?

The problem with using any traditional armoured car for ATGWs is space for reloads. An APC hull has the volume to carry many more.

An interesting option would be a refit by some country with Warsaw Pact support: AT-3 Sagger rail on the turret roof, or maybe two on the bacik of the turret?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 10:15:48 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2015, 10:09:59 AM »
Wonder if the AMX-13 DCA SPAAG turret would go it? An AMX-13 isn't very big and a similar but different turret was a standard option on Panhard AML (4x4) and ERC (6x6) hulls.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2015, 02:56:30 PM »
There was a Ferret turret with four elevating Swingfires, but it was only a one-manner with a 7.62mm for backup. RARDENs have been put into one-man turrets, but since it's a clip-feed job there's still a manual 'loader' task to perform.

Wonder what the Delco turret with a 25mm bushmaster + 2 x TOWs would look like on it?

The problem with using any traditional armoured car for ATGWs is space for reloads. An APC hull has the volume to carry many more.

An interesting option would be a refit by some country with Warsaw Pact support: AT-3 Sagger rail on the turret roof, or maybe two on the bacik of the turret?

The advantage of using all your missiles (and not carrying reloads) is that you don't have to exit the vehicle to reload the launcher.  Just load at the time of bombing up and when expended, return to the bombing up point and reload.   All you need is a "shelf" on the rear of the turret which the missile cannisters clip to and which elevates their muzzles over the front of the turret.  The Ferret Mk.5 was a similar system with four missiles.  My idea is something closer to the Striker version of the  CVR(T) but with a rotating turret.

The 30mm clip is a problem with the Rarden but I understand from my reading that a belt fed version was designed but never introduced into service.  The weapon though, has a bad problem with "Rarden-Thumb" - which apparently effects many gunners - where they reach into the breach and feel with their thumb to see if a round is loaded or not and at that point, the working parts slam forward, removing/smashing their thumb very badly.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2015, 08:26:44 PM »
This is a Jordanian Scorpion refitted with a Russian 2A42 30mm cannon and two ATGWs. Don't know if it went into production or what the ATGWs were:



A similar update would go well on the Saladin. The gun would fit easily and have belt feed, thereby reducing crew tasks, and the tall, narrow turret would take the ATGWs in vertical pairs without overhanging the hull.

Actually, looking at the asymetry of the Saladin turret, it might be better to have the ATGWs in a quad pack on left side of the turret.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 08:31:58 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline apophenia

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2015, 12:50:23 PM »
The missiles are KBP Kornet-E (9M133, aka AT-14). JMSS (Jordan Manufacturing and Services Solutions) was offering Scorion and Scimitar rebuilds with Steyr diesels. The Scimitar was to be armed with the 30mm 2A42 (presumably for commonality with Jordanian BMP-2s).

There's no mention of those CRV-T projects on the KADDB website now so, I suppose, there were no takers.
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2015, 03:10:03 AM »
Some more inspiration:

Halftrack:



Smaller gun:



Scifi:



Various:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2015, 03:16:51 AM »
Did anyone ever put a RARDEN on a Saladin? I know we've talked about it earlier in this thread, but that always seemed like an idea with some potential to me.

Thanks,

Logan

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2015, 09:08:25 AM »
Not that I am aware of Jon.  I agree, it would have been a sensible upgrade path but it was one that was never pursued.  I would also suggest any of the upper range of 30-57mm automatic cannon would have been a good bet to replace the 76mm.   Perhaps we should buy all the Saladins we can and regun them?  ;)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:29 AM »
Is that top black and white one a TEL for a Blue Water?

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2015, 10:54:39 AM »
Did anyone ever put a RARDEN on a Saladin? I know we've talked about it earlier in this thread, but that always seemed like an idea with some potential to me.

Thanks,

Logan

There are a whole bunch of potential upgrades that you could do but which were never looked at. The Saladin must be one of the least supported by upgrades armoured cars out there, certainly relative to it's potential. I suspect part of the problem was that, by the time they were ripe for upgrades, the same manufacturer was heavily pushing the CVR(T) range, and they didn't want to queer the export pitch for those by offering a cheaper alternative.

Personally, I've always wanted to see a medium velocity 90mm on one, the GIAT F2 (AML-90) or Cockerill Mk.II (Cascavel & others) being likely candidates.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:56:18 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2015, 01:44:07 PM »
Is that top black and white one a TEL for a Blue Water?

Yes.  It was proposed but never built.   I have a model somewhere or other of it.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2015, 08:47:52 PM »
A number of the old blokes in my reserve unit came up through Saracens and according to them they were pigs to drive (makes you wonder what the Humber Pig was like?).  I also recall hearing the Stalwart suffered durability issues in addition to being difficult to drive, this may be why there weren't too many upgrades for the types.

That said though if you have ever seen a photo of a Saracen next to an Abbott they are not that different in size, so maybe an SPG version using an Abbott turret could be done.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2015, 10:20:51 PM »
A number of the old blokes in my reserve unit came up through Saracens and according to them they were pigs to drive (makes you wonder what the Humber Pig was like?).  I also recall hearing the Stalwart suffered durability issues in addition to being difficult to drive, this may be why there weren't too many upgrades for the types.

I've heard similar stories.  Saracens were particularly noteworthy for needing extra grease to be pumped into their drive trains while on the move during extended road marches.   I've heard stories of troopers being stationed in the crew compartment pumping with foot pumps continuously during trips from Adelaide to Port Agusta.  Must have been a hell.  I've also been in the back of one which was kept as a "recovery training aid" when it's roared around El Alamein doing skid turns around the corners because the steering system was stuffed.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Alvis Saladin (and associated) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2016, 08:36:56 AM »
Saladin turret on a cut-down Chinese Type 63 (YW531) APC chassis produced by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka:





It looks like what they did was cut a horizontal slice out of the hull and then moved the engine to the back. Damned neat job for a 'garage mod'. :thumbsup:

Thanks to Logan for correctly identifying what they did. :)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith