Author Topic: Upgunned Tanks  (Read 16579 times)

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2012, 07:49:58 PM »
I don't think that would work.  You'd see an increase in both calibre and velocity, earlier.  The ceramics wouldn't be hard enough to withstand the penetration of the kinetic energy rounds.  You might see chemical energy weapons later.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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ARL-44...... Upgunning them even more?
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2013, 06:54:15 AM »


Other than giving French weapons engineers time to get up to speed, the one saving grace ARL-44 had is its aim to carry a gun capable of effective beating the Tiger II.

What if WWII lasted long enough for E-75 (88mm/L100 or 10.5cm gun) to show itself on the battlefield, or maybe the Soviet for some reason turned hostile, and the Allies found themselves now facing the IS-3?

Did ARL-44 have the potential for an even larger gun?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2014, 05:02:14 AM »
Reposting Cockerill's old chart of 90mm gun options (low-pressure Mk.3 and medium tank grade Mk.8 guns) as an upgrade:



Something I'm paying attention to this time: is the Mk.8 really an upgrade from SK-105's 105mm gun?  Or is the Mk.8 somehow more effective against armours than SK-105's gun?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 05:08:00 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2014, 10:35:28 AM »
Both rely on HEAT.  You might get a higher MV out of the Mk.8 but I doubt it's HEAT round would be spectacularly more effective than the Mk.3.  Of course with higher MV comes higher recoil.  You'll note that the Mk.8 is only fitted to larger vehicles.  You need a higher AUW and a larger turret to absorb the recoil.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2014, 12:05:15 PM »
Oh well, I also found out just today that I can presumably go for the SK-105A3, which is armed with a LRF version of MBT-grade 105mm gun......



I wonder if the AMX-13 can be upgraded with that turret though.  Google suggests that the A3 turret is three-tonne heavier than stock......
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 12:07:23 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2014, 12:57:07 AM »
Which one, the French 105mm or those developed in the rest of Europe, is better-developed as an anti-armour weapon?

I've been under the impression that the French 105mm, at least with the exception of its latest MBT-grade iteration, is not NATO-compatible; but then again, most of NATO quickly moved on to the Rheinmetall 120mm......
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 04:13:02 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2014, 06:15:02 PM »
The French 105mm was optimised to fire HEAT.  It was non-STANAG standard.  It utilised shallower grooves and a lower twist than the Vickers L7 and its derivative guns.   It also utilised a specific HEAT round called "Opus-G" which had a teflon slip ring, which stop (well actually significantly decreased) the round from spinning.  HEAT's effectiveness is decreased by spin, which is why most modern HEAT rounds are designed not to spin.   However, in order to ensure accuracy at longer ranges, the round must have some spin imparted by the rifling, even if it is significantly lower than other rounds.

Anyway, NATO guns were designed primarily to fire kinetic energy rounds (AP/APDS), with HEAT or for the British HESH as a secondary round.   So they retained their twist and deeper rifling.  The French reversed that priority.   While HEAT relies on chemical energy to penetrate, muzzle velocity becomes a secondary consideration as well.  However, to ensure a flatter trajectory and faster time of flight (and hence ease the fire control computations), standard NATO 105mm guns fired their HEAT at a higher MV than the French.

With the development of long-rod penetraters, all that went by the wayside and HEAT and HESH were basically relegated very much to second-place as far as anti-armour use goes.   Low pressure guns rely on them still, though.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2018, 04:45:38 AM »
Found some scans on the FL-12 oscillating turret HERE.

And with at least a gun upgrade to CN105-G1 standard, APFSDS would be available for use as well ( la the SK-105; I think the SK-105's turret is designated FL-15; correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone know the total length of an APFSDS ready round for the CN105G1?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 02:11:32 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2018, 12:18:53 PM »
105x527R cartridges for the rounds used in the AMX-10RC.

105 x 528R, 120 mm rim diameter for CN 105 G1/CN-105-57 gun.

105 x 607-617R, 147 mm rim diameter for the CN 105 F1






Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2018, 12:07:09 PM »
MECAR KEnerga 90/46.  The Cockerill Mk.8 is a licenced-built version of it.

Both companies have their own turrets designed for the gun; Cockerill offers the autoloader-equipped LCTS-90, whereas MECAR's product seems very similar to the old Cadillac Gage turret and can be more-comfortably fitted to lighter vehicles.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 12:11:34 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?