Author Topic: Upgunned Tanks  (Read 16048 times)

Offline dy031101

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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2012, 12:45:40 AM »
Top: With a high-velocity 47mm gun.

Bottom: First time in action.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2012, 02:13:35 AM »
Interesting.  WW1 era?
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2012, 02:41:39 PM »
It'd still be a bit too early for Pz. II and Pz. 35(t) as victims.  ;D

(Ignore the T2 for a sec. here)

Now upgraded Matilda tank in 3D, again courtesy of World of Tanks.

Top: with Cavalier turret and QF 6-pounder gun.

Bottom: with ZiS-96 76mm gun.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 03:59:50 PM »
Churchill Mk.I re-equipped with a 6-pounder gun turret.  Hull-mounted howitzer is retained since 6 pounder has ineffective HE shells anyway.

(WoT actually allows for it to be armed with Vickers 75mm HV as its biggest gun, but I don't think it's do-able in real-life: Churchill has a smaller turret than Cromwell, IIRC, and Cromwell couldn't take the 75mm HV......)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline arc3371

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2012, 07:53:10 AM »
I have been thinking about a T-28 based TD with the 107mm M-60 gun (that I love in WoT, the gun not the tank)

Offline dy031101

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Tank Hunter Theme
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2012, 12:00:26 PM »
While I was cursing WoT a while ago for taking away my T-28's 85mm gun and putting in its place a ZiS-4, I was reminded of the T-34-57, a tank hunter version of the pre-85mm T-34.

Then I figured that a tank hunter theme might not be so bad after all...... so here come the two tanks in my inventory armed with ZiS-4.  Good against distracted enemy tanks.

I heard the 75mm gun used by early versions of the M4 Sherman uses the same ammunition of the famous French 75?  I couldn't think of a scenario for this to happen, but I couldn't help to think of how a 75mm tank gun with the same kind of upgrade that made the German Pak-97/38 (muzzle brake, HEAT shells, amongst others) might have performed, either......

(I know it'll never beat the 76mm gun M1A1, and WWII HEAT shells weren't exactly the most reliable stuff, but that ought to still bring about some improvement......)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 12:02:04 PM by dy031101 »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Tank Hunter Theme
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2012, 05:23:32 PM »
I heard the 75mm gun used by early versions of the M4 Sherman uses the same ammunition of the famous French 75?

Well, essentially any 75mm gun can fire the shell from any other 75mm as they are the same calibre.  As the US 75mm tank gun was indeed essentially the French 75mm slightly tarted up and put in a tank, the shells they fired were from the same stocks that had been put aside for the 75mm Field Gun.

M3 Grants/Lees used German 75mm shells (after they were remanufactured to British standards) in the Western Desert in 1942-3.

The German captured Russian 76.2 Field Guns used German 75mm ammunition with changed/enlarged driving bands to ensure they engaged the lands in the barrel properly, when the Russian shells ran out.  When Russian cartridge cases ran out, they "rechambered" (essentially gave it a new breech) the weapons to accept German rounds as a complete unit.


Offline dy031101

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Re: Tank Hunter Theme
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 07:53:39 AM »
M3 Grants/Lees used German 75mm shells (after they were remanufactured to British standards) in the Western Desert in 1942-3.

Curiosity...... did they have a chance to see how far they could go with Ex-German HEAT projectiles?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Tank Hunter Theme
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 04:58:28 PM »
M3 Grants/Lees used German 75mm shells (after they were remanufactured to British standards) in the Western Desert in 1942-3.

Curiosity...... did they have a chance to see how far they could go with Ex-German HEAT projectiles?

I don't think there were any HEAT rounds in the Western Desert.  Hunnicutt who mentions the remanufacture of German shells only refers to HE rounds.  The shells had to have their driving bands machined to allow them to fit the US 75mm barrel and they had to be put on US 75mm shell cases (the powder from the German shells was reused).  Apparently they had to make the lathes run in reverse because running them clockwise had an unfortunate effect on the fuses - arming them!  :o

Offline dy031101

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Re: Tank Hunter Theme
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 01:58:55 PM »
I don't think there were any HEAT rounds in the Western Desert.  Hunnicutt who mentions the remanufacture of German shells only refers to HE rounds.

I see- it would still have been interesting to see if HEAT round would have been a (all be it crude and temperamental) way to counter "Mark 4 Special" and even Tiger I......

The top attachment is a T25E1 equipped with a larger turret and a 105mm gun; granted my fascination is with the T25 with HVSS (below attachment)......

In addition, I also wonder how that turret can be up-amoured.  Magach-like armour pack, or Russian/Ukrainian-style ERA placement?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2012, 02:43:32 PM »
To be realistic, I think you're going to encounter the same problems they did in real life with trying to put massive heavy tank turrets on medium tank hulls - it becomes too heavy for the suspension/engine and mobility suffers.  it also becomes top heavy and unstable.  The only up-armouring which could actually save you from that is ERA.  It's lighter than passive steel armour.  However it means your vehicles no longer have close infantry protection.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2012, 01:42:09 AM »
 
Quote from: Rickshaw
The only up-armouring which could actually save you from that is ERA.  It's lighter than passive steel armour.  However it means your vehicles no longer have close infantry protection.

Well you can... just not for long.

What about an early version of Chobham armor/armour? Reactive and ceramic armor were developed/built at about the same time. The ceramics would still be heavy, but not as heavy as a thick steel armor plate.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 11:09:24 AM by Frank3k »

Offline dy031101

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2012, 10:59:38 AM »
To be realistic, I think you're going to encounter the same problems they did in real life with trying to put massive heavy tank turrets on medium tank hulls - it becomes too heavy for the suspension/engine and mobility suffers.  it also becomes top heavy and unstable. 

Okay, I see.  But the capacity to increase its turret ring to 80 inches seems to open up a few possibilities...... can I assume that's also what the M26/M46 is theoretically capable of?

(Oh...... for some reason I'm thinking East-meets-West again......)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 11:24:04 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 06:36:56 PM »
Quote from: Rickshaw
The only up-armouring which could actually save you from that is ERA.  It's lighter than passive steel armour.  However it means your vehicles no longer have close infantry protection.

Well you can... just not for long.

Not after the first tile goes off anyway.

Quote
What about an early version of Chobham armor/armour? Reactive and ceramic armor were developed/built at about the same time. The ceramics would still be heavy, but not as heavy as a thick steel armor plate.

The US Army experimented with glass armour, utilising both blocks of glass and glassfibre mats on tanks in the 1950s when HEAT was the most common AT round.   Worked but was considered too fragile to be able to be used on a battlefield.

The Royal Navy experimented with asphalt armour in the 1940s but found it wasn't effective against AP ammunition.

Chobham's primarily designed to defeat kinetic energy rounds, with a secondary role against chemical energy ones.

I think you have to be clear as to what time period you're talking about.   I don't think Chobham was possible before aluminium armour and that doesn't appear until the 1960s when aluminium comes into widespread use in the civilian market and the automatic industry started looking at "crushability" as a safety feature in cars.  The combination, plus a bit of lateral thinking created Chobham.

If however, you were talking about the 1950s, an asphalt and glass fibre combination - the glass fibres held in an asphalt matrix might have had possibilities in defeating HEAT rounds, and it would have been durable.   Wouldn't work in hot climates though.  ;D

Ceramics have real possibilities but don't really start being developed for industrial uses until the 1970s.  The Soviets ingeniously used to pour ceramic marbles into a steel matrix for the T-72 turret, so you got a combination of both which made it highly resistant to HEAT and kinetic energy rounds.  I wonder, now if someone had thought of that with glass beads, in the 1950s, what effect do you think that would have had on tank design?

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Upgunned Tanks
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2012, 04:35:14 AM »
Ceramics have real possibilities but don't really start being developed for industrial uses until the 1970s.  The Soviets ingeniously used to pour ceramic marbles into a steel matrix for the T-72 turret, so you got a combination of both which made it highly resistant to HEAT and kinetic energy rounds.  I wonder, now if someone had thought of that with glass beads, in the 1950s, what effect do you think that would have had on tank design?

From a link on the Wikipedia entry on Chobham armor: "In 1918 Maj Neville Monroe-Hopkins found that a thin layer of enamel improved the ballistic performance of a thin steel plate"

So this was a possibility even before aluminum - imagine thinner steel armor faced, bonded or sintered with a ceramic layer. I don't know how advanced large scale powder metallurgy was in the late 40s and 50s, though, so this may still be a 60s-70s technology. Dropping ceramic powder pellets into molten steel (like the T-64 armor) is probably similar in principle.