Author Topic: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 17799 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« on: December 11, 2014, 09:08:12 PM »
Box Artwork for soon to be released kit:



I'm thinking one in this scheme:




Would have been nice but wasn't a contender because of timing concern with the Zulu and the Whiskey was seen as being at the end of its development cycle.  Ironically the Whiskey would have provided Australia with a deployable capability when we needed it, while the Zulu achieved FOC with the USMC before the Tiger achieved IOC with the ADF and would likely have also been available for deployment.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 03:40:16 AM »

Would have been nice but wasn't a contender because of timing concern with the Zulu and the Whiskey was seen as being at the end of its development cycle.

Errr…it was offered in the form of the Bell ARH-1Z.
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 07:08:55 AM »

Would have been nice but wasn't a contender because of timing concern with the Zulu and the Whiskey was seen as being at the end of its development cycle.

Errr…it was offered in the form of the Bell ARH-1Z.

That would have been awesome. T700 series engines to go with the Navy and Army H-60s too.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 10:10:57 AM »

Would have been nice but wasn't a contender because of timing concern with the Zulu and the Whiskey was seen as being at the end of its development cycle.

Errr…it was offered in the form of the Bell ARH-1Z.

I was under the impression that we were offered the in service W and the Z but the Z was eliminated early on because it wouldn't be ready in time and was still developmental while the buying the Whiskey with a future upgrade to Zulu being more expensive than the Tiger.  I could be wrong but that was the story I was told.  As you worked the project though you'd know more about it than me with my mix of, possibly miss remembered, reading and conversations.

A mate of mine was the CSM for the RAEME support detachment for the Tigers, he was not a fan believing we should have gone either Cobra or Apache for the simple reason the full support package would have been available from the start meaning we would actually have had a deployable asset rather than one where it was hard to get a single helicopter in the air some days due to lack of spares.  He actually also said he wished the RAAF had kept the helicopters because they were so time consuming, expensive and difficult to operate and maintain, especially considering a lack of understanding / air mindedness in the upper echelons who just expected a "can do attitude" from the maintainers rather than all the safety / certification BS which some of them just saw as excuses.  We all know where the "can do attitude" got the RAN FAA.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 10:25:21 AM »
Considering that the "Zulu" is primarily a "Whiskey" with a four-bladed rotor system similar to that already flying in the Bell 412, I wouldn't think it that big a gamble.  Yes, there are system upgrades, but, really, that's the major difference.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 10:54:33 AM »

Would have been nice but wasn't a contender because of timing concern with the Zulu and the Whiskey was seen as being at the end of its development cycle.

Errr…it was offered in the form of the Bell ARH-1Z.

That would have been awesome. T700 series engines to go with the Navy and Army H-60s too.

Getting miles of the topic here but my idea ADF helicopter force would have skipped the MRH90 and Tiger and opted for the Merlin as the initial additional lift asset and then Sea King replacement then go for either the Whisky, Zulu or Apache for the ARH mission, the MH-60R (Romeo) to replace the SH-60Bs and Super Sea Sprites and then the MH-60S (Sierra) and UH-60L or M to replace the Blackhawks.  Common base engine through the fleet, all proven in service, high degrees of commonality through the various S70 models, all bar the Merlin would have been FMS.  Oh, also expand the CH-47D Chinook fleet then look to replace them with Fs or King Stallions.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2014, 11:28:00 AM »
Considering that the "Zulu" is primarily a "Whiskey" with a four-bladed rotor system similar to that already flying in the Bell 412, I wouldn't think it that big a gamble.  Yes, there are system upgrades, but, really, that's the major difference.

Yes but you are talking common since and reality, I am talking ADF procurement from the late 90s to the mid to late 2000s.  Layer upon layer of compliance and bureaucracy, multiple gateways, then the department of Prime Minister and Cabinet does whatever they want, irrespective of the official and expert recommendation.  Basically if a company can put together a good presentation that convinced the PMs team they got the contract, no matter what the services actually wanted or needed, not even the defence minister had much, if any, say, the service chiefs were ignored and the actual operators for all intents and purposes didn't exist for the amount of attention they received. 

It was absolutely ridiculous, there was this huge bureaucracy and the services themselves, with all these talented and experienced people putting huge amounts of effort into selecting the right gear who were given all these hoops to jump through, road blocks to get around and then they were just ignored and the PM signed off on what ever his department told him was cheapest, or would win the most votes with no regard to actual capability needs, risk, or true through life costs.

Sorry about the rant but we could have had Whiskys or Apaches in the 90s at less cost than the still not FOC Tigers.  The latest Australian Aviation has an article on the Tigers and says that replacement of the fleet with AH-64Es instead of a mid life upgrade is an option that is seriously being considered, if this is the case then what a complete, total waste of money the initial buy was.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2014, 02:09:11 PM »
I was under the impression that we were offered the in service W and the Z but the Z was eliminated early on because it wouldn't be ready in time and was still developmental while the buying the Whiskey with a future upgrade to Zulu being more expensive than the Tiger.  I could be wrong but that was the story I was told.  As you worked the project though you'd know more about it than me with my mix of, possibly miss remembered, reading and conversations.


The original AI87 offerings were:  Boeing/BAE Systems Australia with the AH-64D Apache; Agusta/Tenix Defence Systems with the A129 Scorpion; Bell Helicopter Textron/Raytheon Australia/Helitech Pty Ltd/Rockwell Australia Ltd with the ARH-1Z; and Eurocopter /ADI Ltd/Celsius Hawker Pacific Pty Ltd/Brown & Root Services Asia-Pacific with the Tiger.

The ARH-1Z was very enticing especially since it also included a proposed license to complete development and subsequent manufacture a family of UAVs based upon the of the Eagle Eye Tilt Rotor UAV (see below) in Australia for sale worldwide.



Ultimately I believe it lost out since the basic platform was felt to be at the end of its development potential.  Plus the USD:AUD exchange rate was not pretty.

A mate of mine was the CSM for the RAEME support detachment for the Tigers, he was not a fan believing we should have gone either Cobra or Apache for the simple reason the full support package would have been available from the start meaning we would actually have had a deployable asset rather than one where it was hard to get a single helicopter in the air some days due to lack of spares.  He actually also said he wished the RAAF had kept the helicopters because they were so time consuming, expensive and difficult to operate and maintain, especially considering a lack of understanding / air mindedness in the upper echelons who just expected a "can do attitude" from the maintainers rather than all the safety / certification BS which some of them just saw as excuses.  We all know where the "can do attitude" got the RAN FAA.


I would say that a lot of people don't understand how these programs go down and what looks obvious to those on the outside may not necessarily be so when one has the facts at hand...
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2014, 02:15:04 PM »
The ADF came ever so close to having Cobras back in the early '70s - see here

And just to inspire you further:

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Offline jcf

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2014, 02:25:01 PM »
A former USMC CH-53 crew-chief Gulf War One vet I worked with at Heli-pro (avionics shop primarily S-61 but also supported Bell 205/212/214 and 206) in the mid-90s related to me that the Whiskeys performance in the hot conditions of the Gulf left much to be desired. His heavy unit was assigned as support to the Cobras and according to him the Whiskeys often missed missions due to high temperatures or operated at half weapons/fuel load. But if temps topped 115-120 F, they simply couldn't take-off even with reduced loads, and that was at sea level.

So based on that and the realities of conditions in Oz, the Whiskey might have been a white elephant,
although they would have looked impressive posed on the apron.  ;D
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2014, 02:53:29 PM »
Considering that the "Zulu" is primarily a "Whiskey" with a four-bladed rotor system similar to that already flying in the Bell 412, I wouldn't think it that big a gamble.  Yes, there are system upgrades, but, really, that's the major difference.

Yes but you are talking common since and reality, I am talking ADF procurement from the late 90s to the mid to late 2000s.  Layer upon layer of compliance and bureaucracy, multiple gateways, then the department of Prime Minister and Cabinet does whatever they want, irrespective of the official and expert recommendation.  Basically if a company can put together a good presentation that convinced the PMs team they got the contract, no matter what the services actually wanted or needed, not even the defence minister had much, if any, say, the service chiefs were ignored and the actual operators for all intents and purposes didn't exist for the amount of attention they received. 

It was absolutely ridiculous, there was this huge bureaucracy and the services themselves, with all these talented and experienced people putting huge amounts of effort into selecting the right gear who were given all these hoops to jump through, road blocks to get around and then they were just ignored and the PM signed off on what ever his department told him was cheapest, or would win the most votes with no regard to actual capability needs, risk, or true through life costs.

Sorry about the rant but we could have had Whiskys or Apaches in the 90s at less cost than the still not FOC Tigers.  The latest Australian Aviation has an article on the Tigers and says that replacement of the fleet with AH-64Es instead of a mid life upgrade is an option that is seriously being considered, if this is the case then what a complete, total waste of money the initial buy was.

It is a little bit different to that.  Political considerations will usually trump service and technical ones, no matter how much you moan about it.  It happens in all nations, be they dictatorship or democracy.

The Apache was never going to be bought.  It was too expensive and if you think the Tiger is complex, the Apache is a hell of a lot more.

The problem is Army never really figured out what it wanted.  The Tigers were intended to replace the Kiowas, a light scout helicopter.  Did Army want a light replacement or a heavy assault chopper?   The Tiger was a compromise as are all defence procurements and considering the shenanigans which were gone through to get a purchase, its surprising they ever arrived at a decision.

Personally I believe they should have got the A129 Mangusta.   It was simpler than the either the Tiger or the Apache.  It was not American (an important consideration) and it was cheaper than the Tiger.  It was in production and in service.  It was based on an in service chopper's mechanicals.

However, any decision always had to get past not only the Minister of Defence, it had to run the gauntlet of Treasury and as you note, PM and Cabinet.  All had their own views on the matter and all would put their oars in to stir the mix.   Politics is how the system works and it's what often makes the decision.  The most famous two decisions for Army which illustrate this was the M60 GPMG and the ASLAV vehicles.  The first was chosen, despite losing the selection competition and the second didn't even come from Army but was foisted on it by the Minister.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 09:16:53 PM »
A former USMC CH-53 crew-chief Gulf War One vet I worked with at Heli-pro (avionics shop primarily S-61 but also supported Bell 205/212/214 and 206) in the mid-90s related to me that the Whiskeys performance in the hot conditions of the Gulf left much to be desired. His heavy unit was assigned as support to the Cobras and according to him the Whiskeys often missed missions due to high temperatures or operated at half weapons/fuel load. But if temps topped 115-120 F, they simply couldn't take-off even with reduced loads, and that was at sea level.

So based on that and the realities of conditions in Oz, the Whiskey might have been a white elephant,
although they would have looked impressive posed on the apron.  ;D
One of the main drivers behind the more efficient & capable 4-bladed rotor of the "Zulu"; you can only push a 2-bladed rotor so far.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 02:14:34 AM »
Random idea:  5 or 6 bladed rotor
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 02:20:51 AM »
AH-1W VTCAD:

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 02:59:50 AM »
Random idea:  5 or 6 bladed rotor
Once development and testing is complete, you could probably upgrade the Zulu with the transmission and rotor from the 525 Relentless (heck, the technology testbed/demonstrator is based on a 214ST and uses a 4-bladed rotor) which work with the same basic engines.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2014, 06:16:32 AM »
I wanted to see a Cobra using the Bell 412CF mechanicals, in CF service of course. :)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2014, 01:10:13 PM »
I wanted to see a Cobra using the Bell 412CF mechanicals, in CF service of course. :)
That sounds like an AH-1J, or developments there from, with upgraded engines and transmission.

FWIW, Whiskey, Yankee, and Zulu models all drew engine and transmission experience from the 214ST.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2014, 01:34:51 PM »
A former USMC CH-53 crew-chief Gulf War One vet I worked with at Heli-pro (avionics shop primarily S-61 but also supported Bell 205/212/214 and 206) in the mid-90s related to me that the Whiskeys performance in the hot conditions of the Gulf left much to be desired. His heavy unit was assigned as support to the Cobras and according to him the Whiskeys often missed missions due to high temperatures or operated at half weapons/fuel load. But if temps topped 115-120 F, they simply couldn't take-off even with reduced loads, and that was at sea level.

So based on that and the realities of conditions in Oz, the Whiskey might have been a white elephant,
although they would have looked impressive posed on the apron.  ;D

The Whiskey would not have been ideal but remember the RAAF and army operated two bladed Iroquois and Kiowas for decades.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2014, 01:50:33 PM »
Considering that the "Zulu" is primarily a "Whiskey" with a four-bladed rotor system similar to that already flying in the Bell 412, I wouldn't think it that big a gamble.  Yes, there are system upgrades, but, really, that's the major difference.

Yes but you are talking common since and reality, I am talking ADF procurement from the late 90s to the mid to late 2000s.  Layer upon layer of compliance and bureaucracy, multiple gateways, then the department of Prime Minister and Cabinet does whatever they want, irrespective of the official and expert recommendation.  Basically if a company can put together a good presentation that convinced the PMs team they got the contract, no matter what the services actually wanted or needed, not even the defence minister had much, if any, say, the service chiefs were ignored and the actual operators for all intents and purposes didn't exist for the amount of attention they received. 

It was absolutely ridiculous, there was this huge bureaucracy and the services themselves, with all these talented and experienced people putting huge amounts of effort into selecting the right gear who were given all these hoops to jump through, road blocks to get around and then they were just ignored and the PM signed off on what ever his department told him was cheapest, or would win the most votes with no regard to actual capability needs, risk, or true through life costs.

Sorry about the rant but we could have had Whiskys or Apaches in the 90s at less cost than the still not FOC Tigers.  The latest Australian Aviation has an article on the Tigers and says that replacement of the fleet with AH-64Es instead of a mid life upgrade is an option that is seriously being considered, if this is the case then what a complete, total waste of money the initial buy was.

It is a little bit different to that.  Political considerations will usually trump service and technical ones, no matter how much you moan about it.  It happens in all nations, be they dictatorship or democracy.

The Apache was never going to be bought.  It was too expensive and if you think the Tiger is complex, the Apache is a hell of a lot more.

The problem is Army never really figured out what it wanted.  The Tigers were intended to replace the Kiowas, a light scout helicopter.  Did Army want a light replacement or a heavy assault chopper?   The Tiger was a compromise as are all defence procurements and considering the shenanigans which were gone through to get a purchase, its surprising they ever arrived at a decision.

Personally I believe they should have got the A129 Mangusta.   It was simpler than the either the Tiger or the Apache.  It was not American (an important consideration) and it was cheaper than the Tiger.  It was in production and in service.  It was based on an in service chopper's mechanicals.

However, any decision always had to get past not only the Minister of Defence, it had to run the gauntlet of Treasury and as you note, PM and Cabinet.  All had their own views on the matter and all would put their oars in to stir the mix.   Politics is how the system works and it's what often makes the decision.  The most famous two decisions for Army which illustrate this was the M60 GPMG and the ASLAV vehicles.  The first was chosen, despite losing the selection competition and the second didn't even come from Army but was foisted on it by the Minister.

Mangusta would have been interesting, especially if Lynx was bought along side it to serve in a utility role.

The services rarely have much say in what they get and when.  As the link Greg posted pointed out, the AH-1G was selected then cancelled, even though it was supported by both air force and army.  The M-60 was a travesty, selected for commonalty with the US, but the ASLAV worked out, although what the Army was really hoping for was the M-3 and M-1A2. 

Had we acquired the AH-1G then the logical progression would have been the S and then the Apache.  Ironically, the machine that seemed to best fit the Australian requirement was the subsequently cancelled Comanche.

Offline upnorth

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 07:35:00 PM »

Personally I believe they should have got the A129 Mangusta.   It was simpler than the either the Tiger or the Apache.  It was not American (an important consideration) and it was cheaper than the Tiger.  It was in production and in service.  It was based on an in service chopper's mechanicals.



I would have thought the Rooivalk from South Africa might have been a better fit for Australia given some of the climatic similarities between the two countries.

Operations in hot, arid conditions with bare bones support were critical factors in the Rooivalk's development
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 06:17:41 AM »
I wanted to see a Cobra using the Bell 412CF mechanicals, in CF service of course. :)
That sounds like an AH-1J, or developments there from, with upgraded engines and transmission.

FWIW, Whiskey, Yankee, and Zulu models all drew engine and transmission experience from the 214ST.

Closest analogue I think is the experimental Bell 309 with the TwinPac. Add on the 412's main rotor, a FastFin and Strakes from BLR Aerospace. Maybe make a fun build one of these days.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2014, 09:29:56 AM »

Personally I believe they should have got the A129 Mangusta.   It was simpler than the either the Tiger or the Apache.  It was not American (an important consideration) and it was cheaper than the Tiger.  It was in production and in service.  It was based on an in service chopper's mechanicals.



I would have thought the Rooivalk from South Africa might have been a better fit for Australia given some of the climatic similarities between the two countries.

Operations in hot, arid conditions with bare bones support were critical factors in the Rooivalk's development

I'd agree but Rooivalk was always seen as an outsider in the competition and eliminated quite early on because of questions about support.  At the time of the original competition start up, the old RSA had just dissolved and there were questions over the new RSA's viability.

Online dy031101

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2014, 12:17:31 AM »
Taiwan now has a new hunter-killer team: Longbow Apache is the hunter (though the Kiowan Warrior is still around to share that role, AFAIK), and Super Cobra is the killer.

And I'm still rooting for the chance for the Super Cobra to evolve into Viper as well......
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 06:59:59 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2015, 01:58:46 PM »
I have a 1/35th AH-1W Cobra & UH-1N Gunship to be built in my Royal Australian Marines plan. The Huey is getting Live Resin mini-guns to replace the kit versions & both will be getting the still-in-development RAM camouflage scheme.

I just wish someone would do a CH-46 Sea Knight & CH-53 Sea Stallion variants in 1/35th so I could add them to the mix.

However, I'm tossing up doing UH-60 Black Hawk & CH-47 Chinook troop transport variants, instead.

Now, though, what I need most are decent operational (flying) crew sets with pilots & gunners (& troops?) doing their thing.
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Offline gogs007

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2015, 06:56:56 PM »
I believe live resin are going to release some flight crew figures

Offline LemonJello

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2015, 10:29:21 PM »
I have a 1/35th AH-1W Cobra & UH-1N Gunship to be built in my Royal Australian Marines plan. The Huey is getting Live Resin mini-guns to replace the kit versions & both will be getting the still-in-development RAM camouflage scheme.

I'll be looking forward to your builds of these two.  I have a second -1W in the stash with the turned exhausts and Cobra Co updates as well as the -1N (also with Cobra Co updates) waiting to be built as real world USMC machines.   Just have to find the courage to start chopping off plastic to replace with resin.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2015, 12:32:06 PM »
Now, though, what I need most are decent operational (flying) crew sets with pilots & gunners (& troops?) doing their thing.

There are quite a few kits out there.  I am unsure how good they are though.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2015, 08:55:19 AM »
Now, though, what I need most are decent operational (flying) crew sets with pilots & gunners (& troops?) doing their thing.

There are quite a few kits out there.  I am unsure how good they are though.

From what I've seen quality varies greatly, few have both pilots seated & even fewer have gunners, let-alone posed in weapon-handling stances.
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2015, 11:11:26 AM »
I was under the impression that we were offered the in service W and the Z but the Z was eliminated early on because it wouldn't be ready in time and was still developmental while the buying the Whiskey with a future upgrade to Zulu being more expensive than the Tiger.  I could be wrong but that was the story I was told.  As you worked the project though you'd know more about it than me with my mix of, possibly miss remembered, reading and conversations.


The original AI87 offerings were:  Boeing/BAE Systems Australia with the AH-64D Apache; Agusta/Tenix Defence Systems with the A129 Scorpion; Bell Helicopter Textron/Raytheon Australia/Helitech Pty Ltd/Rockwell Australia Ltd with the ARH-1Z; and Eurocopter /ADI Ltd/Celsius Hawker Pacific Pty Ltd/Brown & Root Services Asia-Pacific with the Tiger.

The ARH-1Z was very enticing especially since it also included a proposed license to complete development and subsequent manufacture a family of UAVs based upon the of the Eagle Eye Tilt Rotor UAV (see below) in Australia for sale worldwide.



Ultimately I believe it lost out since the basic platform was felt to be at the end of its development potential.  Plus the USD:AUD exchange rate was not pretty.

A mate of mine was the CSM for the RAEME support detachment for the Tigers, he was not a fan believing we should have gone either Cobra or Apache for the simple reason the full support package would have been available from the start meaning we would actually have had a deployable asset rather than one where it was hard to get a single helicopter in the air some days due to lack of spares.  He actually also said he wished the RAAF had kept the helicopters because they were so time consuming, expensive and difficult to operate and maintain, especially considering a lack of understanding / air mindedness in the upper echelons who just expected a "can do attitude" from the maintainers rather than all the safety / certification BS which some of them just saw as excuses.  We all know where the "can do attitude" got the RAN FAA.


I would say that a lot of people don't understand how these programs go down and what looks obvious to those on the outside may not necessarily be so when one has the facts at hand...


And isn't ironic that the Australian Army has had a gut full of the Eurocopter Tiger and now wants to replace them with Apache's! The bloody ADF....I'd be happy to say to the Army - 'You know what... you selected the Tiger over all the other proven and tested designs in Air87! You as a service selected the one and only design that was still in development, not in operational service....and now you want to say thanks, but no thanks! Well try these refurbished Bell H-47 on for size!!!'

As for the record, I would have selected the Agusta/Tenix Defence Systems with the A129 Scorpion proposal! It was simple, cost effective, compact and operationally proven!

P.S. I dare say your aware that we in actual fact ordered Bell AH-1G's during the Vietnam War? Yes but as per usual with the Australian Government, the order was cancelled on 'cost grounds' Yep sad and pathetic!! (I'll try and find the article!!)



M.A.D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 11:14:35 AM by M.A.D »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 11:42:11 PM »
Question folks:

I'm building the Special Hobby Huey Cobra at the moment, and it has lots of optional parts, but no explanation of what they are and what applies to which version! The thing I'm particularly wondering about at the moment is the rotor mast. Two different versions are provided:

1. Shorter mast with a flat plate base that seals off the hole in the top of the fuselage.

2. Longer mast with a "frying pan" base that leave the hole in the top of the fuselage recessed.

What's the difference between them and which is earlier or later?
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2015, 05:41:41 AM »
According to Floyd Werner (former Cobra pilot) on ARC, those things were aerodynamic covers. They were quickly removed in the field after it was found that they didn't offer much of an aerodynamic improvement. He said about 99% of Cobras didn't use the cover.
Cheers,
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2015, 06:32:57 AM »
According to Floyd Werner (former Cobra pilot) on ARC, those things were aerodynamic covers. They were quickly removed in the field after it was found that they didn't offer much of an aerodynamic improvement. He said about 99% of Cobras didn't use the cover.

Many thanks - just what I needed. :)
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2015, 02:28:30 AM »
I previously knew of the ADF's plan to purchase AH-1G in the early '70s.  The advert below though is something I have not previously seen:

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2016, 11:42:06 AM »
I don't know about anyone else, but I think these look REALLY sharp.





Defence24: Bell Helicopter - Offer for Poland and Czech Republic

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2016, 03:05:52 PM »
The 2nd picture is great! It takes an idea straight out of my head & makes it almost real - right down to the colours, only in Czech markings instead of Royal Australian Marines. :D

I have a 1/35 UH-1N & an AH-1W for the project.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2016, 04:36:51 AM »
Some AH-1 proposals:


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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2016, 10:36:34 AM »
The engine would be easy enough and the MMS could come from the OH-58D.  Anyone make a Model 412 kit in 1/72?

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2016, 02:18:41 PM »
^ Italeri do: LINK! Already got one in the stash to nick the rotor from to make that Cobra proposed to the Germans.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2016, 02:45:22 PM »
The engine would be easy enough and the MMS could come from the OH-58D.  Anyone make a Model 412 kit in 1/72?

I just finished scrapping a pair of MRC 1:35th scale OH-58D Kiowa 'Warrior' kits and was going to dispose of the rotors until I realized that the 1:35th scale Kiowa 4-blade rotor would work very well on a 1:48th scale AH-1 or UH-1. 

Maybe you can do the same thing with a 1:48th scale OH-58D and a 1:72nd scale UH-1 or AH-1 ?
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2016, 08:34:46 PM »
Anyone make a Model 412 kit in 1/72?

Italeri and reboxed by Revell.  Got two or three in my stash

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2016, 09:11:29 PM »
^ Italeri do: LINK! Already got one in the stash to nick the rotor from to make that Cobra proposed to the Germans.

Also worth noting that the 212 boxings have most of the 412 rotor parts on the sprues too, all marked as unused.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2016, 10:36:53 PM »
^ Italeri do: LINK! Already got one in the stash to nick the rotor from to make that Cobra proposed to the Germans.

Also worth noting that the 212 boxings have most of the 412 rotor parts on the sprues too, all marked as unused.

Oops! missed Moritz reply ----   :-X

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2016, 11:44:10 PM »
Random idea: how about Huey-based helicopter world speed record contender?

Serious lifting wings in place of the stub wings

Retractable skids as per the prototype

Turret removed and faired over

Four or five bladed main rotor

Depending on the era, you might have BERP rotor tips and depending on the rules, you might have small turbojets/turbofans on the wings for extra thrust.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 04:09:47 AM »
Random idea: how about Huey-based helicopter world speed record contender?


I'm liking your thinking. :)
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2016, 08:44:44 AM »
Random idea: how about Huey-based helicopter world speed record contender?

Serious lifting wings in place of the stub wings

Retractable skids as per the prototype

Turret removed and faired over

Four or five bladed main rotor

Depending on the era, you might have BERP rotor tips and depending on the rules, you might have small turbojets/turbofans on the wings for extra thrust.
Perhaps a variation of the changes Piasecki is making to a YSH-60F for the X-49.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2016, 03:12:40 AM »
In other words, a cleaned up version of this:

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2016, 10:23:17 AM »
Yep!  That does look tasty.  I'll be it would really be nasty of derived from an AH-1Z.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2016, 04:01:34 AM »
Wheel undercarriage anyone:

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2016, 05:46:34 AM »
Think of the skid kids  :icon_crap: errr children !
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 07:01:11 AM by taiidantomcat »
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2016, 05:59:47 AM »
Make it so Number 1!  :)
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2017, 04:15:36 AM »
Is it just me or does this look to have a British roundel on it:

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2017, 04:49:16 AM »
Nope.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2017, 04:03:29 AM »
Ah well, back to this one then... ;)

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2018, 05:59:47 AM »
AH-1F with near-AH-1Z level sensors and weapons suite.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2018, 06:21:15 AM »
AH-1F with near-AH-1Z level sensors and weapons suite.
Retains T53 powerplant or upgrade to T700?  If I was upgrading without budget restrictions, I'd go for the T700 and upgrade the transmission to handle a Model 412 rotor system.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2018, 10:59:15 AM »
Retains T53 powerplant or upgrade to T700?


Almost definitely the former.  The chopper photoed is apparently meant as an active-service machine (as opposed to a prototype), and there is no prototyped attempt at T700 conversion for single-engine Huey/Cobra that I know of outside of the Ultra Huey......

If I was upgrading without budget restrictions, I'd go for the T700 and upgrade the transmission to handle a Model 412 rotor system.


Personally I do love the idea of re-engining single-engine Huey and Cobra with the T700 purely on the ground of potential performance improvement, but what arrangement would offer the best compromise between being economical (throughout lifetime) and being technically straightforward (in aspects such as training) in the event of a mixed fleet of single- and twin-engine Hueys and Cobras?  To keep them in their commercially-available set ups (i.e. AH-1F & Huey II + AH-1W/Z & UH-1Y) or to pursue as much commonality as possible?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 10:29:35 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2018, 06:45:09 PM »
Ah well, back to this one then... ;)




Is that a real one Greg, or is that photoshopped ?

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2018, 10:49:08 AM »
Will need to check my source to confirm
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2018, 02:59:48 PM »
Wheel undercarriage anyone:




Love the wheels version. Is it peruvian?

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2018, 06:00:37 PM »
It looks photoshopped, to me.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2018, 03:07:44 AM »
It looks photoshopped, to me.
But a fairly well done photoshop.  To the best of my knowledge, as of the time I left Bell, there were no AH-1Z's (and, with a four-bladed rotor that has to be one) with wheeled undercarriage.  Now, since there is a wheeled undercarriage option for the Model 412 (you'd love it Brian, such nice spats), I could see a derivative of that fitted to a UH-1Y and then a variant of that added to the AH-1Z, but that would be a tricycle gear, not what's seen here.  The gear shown here almost looks like it's off a MH-60B or other navalized H-60/S-70 variant.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:29:48 PM by elmayerle »

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2018, 08:33:36 AM »
It looks photoshopped, to me.
But a fairly well done photoshop.

Yup. The only real give-away is the wheels, they have flat spots around the lower 1/3 & the colouring looks slightly off.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2018, 09:43:03 AM »
Wheel undercarriage anyone:




Love the wheels version. Is it peruvian?


It was a proposal to Turkey I believe
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2018, 02:54:42 AM »
Birth of the Cobra. Mike Folse proved that a helicopter could fly and shoot at the same time.

Folse and the first official AH-1 drawing.



Read more at https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/13_aug2017-birth-of-the-cobra-180963930/#JbHgUXfV6xoSt3y8.99
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2018, 08:03:20 AM »
Great article! Thanks for posting.

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2018, 01:20:02 AM »
 :smiley:
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« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2019, 02:18:22 PM »
What if early attack helicopter


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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2019, 02:46:21 AM »
Random idea:  AH-1 with 30mm M230 Chain Gun from AH-64.
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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2019, 07:29:51 AM »
Random idea:  AH-1 with 30mm M230 Chain Gun from AH-64.

Regarding which the Salamander "Modern Fighting Aircraft" volume on the AH-1 Cobra from 1987 has the following to say (p.38):

"General Electric's universal turret was introduced to the AH-1S as apart of the AH-1S Upgun programme. Developed as a replacement for the M28, it was designed to carry either the 20mm M197 or the 30mm Hughes M230 Chain Gun, the gun saddle being made compatible with quick-release pin mounting f the 20mm or the slide mount of the 30mm. The designers intended that the turret be convertible from one weapon/calibre to the other in less than 30 minutes, a task which involved changing the gun, ammunition chuting and feed system.  Ammunition is carried in a rectangular magazine located within the aircraft fuselage immediately behind the turret, and detachable partitions were devised to convert the magazine from the 30mm round to the shorter 20mm pattern.
The M230 was for use on the larger McDonnell-Douglas AH-64A Apache, and is carried beneath the belly of all operational examples of that aircraft. It was never adopted for the Cobra however - the universal turret on all AH-1S helicopters is armed with the 20mm M197.
"   

Caption for image of M230:

"Retrofitting the 30mm M230 Chain Gun at a later date would be simple, since mounting points for this larger weapon are already provided in the Universal Turret. To date, the US Army has shown little interest in the weapon."

Apparently a not-too-difficult what-if.... :smiley:
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Moritz

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2019, 01:43:30 AM »
Thanks for the heads up.  Here is some more information:

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2019, 03:41:25 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2019, 10:22:37 AM »
On the other hand is the US Forest Service conversion of a couple of Cobras into Firewatch Cobras to help fight wild fires. I’ll post some pics when I get home.

Here we go,



« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 03:58:40 AM by kerick »

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2019, 03:08:51 AM »
I wonder:  The above PAH-2 Cobra proposal combined with the 30mm Upgun proposal.  Almost giving you an Apache in a Cobra.  Might be best to do off the back of one of the twin engined variants though for the extra power.
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Offline TurboCoupeTurbo

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2019, 05:37:16 AM »



Almost looks like a flamethrower Cobra instead...  ;)

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2019, 05:52:08 AM »
I wonder:  The above PAH-2 Cobra proposal combined with the 30mm Upgun proposal.  Almost giving you an Apache in a Cobra.  Might be best to do off the back of one of the twin engined variants though for the extra power.
I think the T700 has roughly the same power as a PT6T "Twin-Pac".  Going with two T700s puts you in AH-1W/Z territory.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2020, 02:01:26 AM »
This just has to be built:

« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 02:03:29 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2020, 07:33:18 AM »
A viable solution to traffic congestion
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2020, 09:35:43 AM »
 ;D 8)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2021, 07:18:36 AM »


Following a thread on SPF, someone was querying this helicopter as it appeared in the background of the Tiger helicopter. I could see it was a Cobra but the 4-blades through me off. It took a while, but I managed to find an image of the aircraft and what it was, which was the Model 249. Web search of that revealed it was serial number 70-16019, also called a YAH-1S. I found quite a few photos of it and also that it appeared at the 1980 Farnborough Airshow. I also found it was demonstrated to the RAF.
First photo below is what started my search, and then the next one that is really revealing in details. However, the canopy shape in the first pic seems to show curved glass --- so now not sure what it is.

Now I have found I have all the parts to make a model of it in the second photo. I'll just have to make some decals for it.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:30:58 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2021, 07:29:59 AM »
Looking at that first photo up close, I don't think it's a flying aircraft. The rotor mast just looks like a bit of pipe, the exhaust has something which is turning the end upwards and the mast fairing looks a lot like an AH-1G. Definitely not like the second photo.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Bell Huey Cobra Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2021, 07:37:55 AM »
Is it just me or does this look to have a British roundel on it:




On the kits I have, there's a decal that looks just like that, possible the fuel cap ??????