Author Topic: Small Arms  (Read 7405 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Small Arms
« on: June 27, 2014, 08:51:42 PM »
Re the SLR, wasn't it also converted to imperial measurements from metric, and although some parts were interchangeable, quite a lot wern't?


As was the L2A1 AR (Automatic Rifle) which also had the auto safety and heavy barrel.  Always thought an AR with a conventional fore stock would have been a good thing.  It was a mean looking weapon but my experience of a triple feed and jam on the range did temper my view of them.  I often carried one as No.2 on the gun in my Uni Regiment days, the idea being that in the event of a major stoppage on the M-60 the No.1 and Section 2IC would fix the gun and I would provide suppressive fire with the AR.

Is this getting to the point that its worth splitting off into a separate topic on FN FALs and derivatives?


Yes.

The L2a1 was a copy of the Canadian C2a1, without the C2's dust cover which allowed loading of the magazine with stripper clips, without having to remove it first.

L2a1:


C2a1:


L2s were pretty much exclusively an ARes weapon, although they were originally intended for use by Armoured troopers but the Regulars after they realised how bad the weapon was, pretty well abandoned it.   Its major problem was that it was prone to stoppages and misfeeds from fouling of the gas system unless it was kept scrupulously clean. I used to fire the L2a1 on various ARes exercises.  I much preferred the L4a4 Bren personally as an LMG.  Much more reliable.  Both suffered from the lack of a proper foregrip though and I've burnt my hand on both of them at various times.  It was always bloody inconvenient having a bare barrel just where you were likely to grab the weapon when getting up off the ground.

For diggers who liked to look "warry" the 30 round magazine was a favourite as it would fit the standard L1a1, although it made it rather front heavy.  Both pictures show the earlier straight 30 round magazine.  It was later replaced with a slightly curved one because they found it fed better.   The 30 round magazine was also used on the L4a4 Bren.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:07:01 PM by Rickshaw »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 08:21:47 PM »
What if a 12.70 mm version of MG-42


Offline jcf

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 02:39:55 AM »
Or perhaps an infantry version of the MG 131?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_131_machine_gun

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And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 03:24:10 AM »
Or perhaps an infantry version of the MG 131?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_131_machine_gun


Something like these perhaps?

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Offline jcf

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 03:50:49 AM »
Nope, a proper redesign for the infantry role, rather than the extemporized
emergency measure version.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2016, 12:51:32 AM »
 or perhaps a further development of the abandoned TuF MG?

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2016, 01:03:19 AM »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 06:43:58 PM »

Offline jcf

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 01:41:04 AM »
The Colt Model 1911 Mk IV Series 80 is real and compensators of various types are available.



"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 04:41:51 AM »
Did you know this?

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseitenneu/Mauser06.htm


The Gerat 06/StG45(M) prototype led to the Spanish CETME Modelo C service rifle which led to West Germany's Heckler & Koch G3.

Some MP44 whifs here: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg103563#msg103563
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 05:38:52 AM »
The Colt Model 1911 Mk IV Series 80 is real and compensators of various types are available.






I am sure you know much more than me on this issue. But for me, they do not look equal: trigger guard, catch on front of slide, ... Is it just a variant?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 05:53:10 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 02:14:30 PM »
Used to own on of these (thinking of buying another at some point) which could be upgraded through buying kits quite easily to a full blown race gun for IPSC competition shooting.

Offline jcf

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 03:02:11 PM »
I am sure you know much more than me on this issue. But for me, they do not look equal: trigger guard, catch on front of slide, ... Is it just a variant?


That's because it looks like Aoshima is flogging a poor copy of a Marui BB gun, that does look like the Colt.  8)
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/tokyo-marui-centimeter-master-sv-ebb-pistol.html#.VslfZfh7BSU
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2016, 03:28:49 AM »
Not sure if this qualifies as a "small" arm:  Lahti L-39 20 mm anti-tank rifle

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2016, 04:07:18 AM »
Not sure if this qualifies as a "small" arm:  Lahti L-39 20 mm anti-tank rifle



FAIL!  :)

That rifle in the image you posted is not an L-39 Lahti (click on html to view image and description of this weapon at Wikipedia).

The rifle in that image is actually an Solothurn S-18/100 20mm Anti-Tank Rifle chambered to fire the 20X105B cartridge. 

The Finnish designed L-39 Lahti was chambered to fire the larger 20X138B cartridge that was also used in the Solothurn S-18/1000 (semi-auto fire only) and S-18/1100 (semi-automatic fire and full auto fire capable), Italian Breda and Scotti 20mm anti-aircraft guns as well as the German FlaK 30, FlaK 38, and C-30 20mm anti-aircraft guns. 

By the way, CMK offers that Solothrun S-18/100 in 1:35th scale as a resin accessory/detail item if you are interested. 

I picked up a couple as it is unique and unusual.  Just wish there was an injection molded plastic Solothurn S-18/1000 available in 1:35th scale.  Criel Models (Italy) used to offer one in resin but they are now OOB and it was a bit anemic looking (have two in the stash waiting to be exploited). 


***edit to fix the html and obvious sentence structure errors :(
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 04:53:15 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2016, 02:28:08 AM »
Fair enough.  Either way, its still a big "small" arm. ;)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2016, 04:54:53 AM »
Fair enough.  Either way, its still a big "small" arm. ;)
A two man carry at minimum, four if you really want to move quickly ;)
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2016, 08:03:37 PM »
Fair enough.  Either way, its still a big "small" arm. ;)
A two man carry at minimum, four if you really want to move quickly ;)

Bugger that! Mount it on a sidecar! :)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2016, 11:04:21 PM »
Fair enough.  Either way, its still a big "small" arm. ;)
A two man carry at minimum, four if you really want to move quickly ;)
Bugger that! Mount it on a sidecar! :)

The larger Solothurn S-18/1000 did come with a two wheel mount/carriage that could be towed or hauled by several soldiers.  The trails rotated to lock the barrel in place and a "T-Bar" was attached to the gun barrel and used to pull the weapon. 

This thumbnail image from Wikipedia shows some of the details:

See the larger image at the source page
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Offline perttime

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 03:33:26 PM »
I am sure you know much more than me on this issue. But for me, they do not look equal: trigger guard, catch on front of slide, ... Is it just a variant?


That's because it looks like Aoshima is flogging a poor copy of a Marui BB gun, that does look like the Colt.  8)
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/tokyo-marui-centimeter-master-sv-ebb-pistol.html#.VslfZfh7BSU

The venerable 1911 has been made - and is still being made in a huge range of variants. Details differ but the way they work on the inside is the same.

This one has a heavy barrel and no barrel bushing:

Offline Story

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2016, 06:13:16 PM »
How about the whole Caseless Ammunition rabbithole, with the potential for heavier belt-fed support weapons?



http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?16042-THE-GUN-THAT-NEVER-WAS-Heckler-amp-Koch-G11

« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 06:17:38 PM by Story »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2016, 09:22:16 PM »
This is a great Youtube channel and website for obscure and interesting guns:

https://www.youtube.com/user/ForgottenWeapons

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 05:34:09 AM »
Not sure if this qualifies as a "small" arm:  Lahti L-39 20 mm anti-tank rifle




Ah, for someone who spent a good part of his military time carrying a M60 and MAG-58 GPMG, you know where you can keep that Lahti L-39 GTX  ;)

M.A.D

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 08:22:27 PM »
M-60.......Shudder......almost impossible to strip without drawing blood.  Best bit was the second there was blood there was a medic with a tetanus shot, if you couldn't tell the date of your last booster they jabbed you, I ended up with so many antibodies that when I donated blood they used it to make more tetanus vaccine.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 09:34:34 PM »
M-60.......Shudder......almost impossible to strip without drawing blood.  Best bit was the second there was blood there was a medic with a tetanus shot, if you couldn't tell the date of your last booster they jabbed you, I ended up with so many antibodies that when I donated blood they used it to make more tetanus vaccine.

LMAO!!!!  ;D
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2016, 05:19:31 AM »
M-60.......Shudder......almost impossible to strip without drawing blood.  Best bit was the second there was blood there was a medic with a tetanus shot, if you couldn't tell the date of your last booster they jabbed you, I ended up with so many antibodies that when I donated blood they used it to make more tetanus vaccine.

Ha ha, so true.
At least the additional blood would have lubricated the bloody thing.
It's ironic, but for years I attempted too come up with a make-shift foregrip for the 60, but the 'system' use to flip out about "unauthorised modifications.....".
It was only years latter when training with the Yanks, that I had the opportunity in the form.of the M60E, to appreciate the comfort and usability of a foregripped 60 (add to this the relief and foresight of moving those stupid blood legs from the barrel to the body!!!)
Saying this, I would given the spleen of my enemy to have had the same foregrip on the ungainly to carry MAG-58!! :P

M.A.D

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2016, 08:18:58 PM »
M-60.......Shudder......almost impossible to strip without drawing blood.  Best bit was the second there was blood there was a medic with a tetanus shot, if you couldn't tell the date of your last booster they jabbed you, I ended up with so many antibodies that when I donated blood they used it to make more tetanus vaccine.

Ha ha, so true.
At least the additional blood would have lubricated the bloody thing.
It's ironic, but for years I attempted too come up with a make-shift foregrip for the 60, but the 'system' use to flip out about "unauthorised modifications.....".
It was only years latter when training with the Yanks, that I had the opportunity in the form.of the M60E, to appreciate the comfort and usability of a foregripped 60 (add to this the relief and foresight of moving those stupid blood legs from the barrel to the body!!!)
Saying this, I would given the spleen of my enemy to have had the same foregrip on the ungainly to carry MAG-58!! :P

M.A.D

I believe 6 RAR used the perforated sheet from the M-60 bi pod on the MAG-58 to make it easier to carry, they also apparently were able to obtain BRENs when they changed from Scout/Command, Gun and Rifle group in each section to two fire teams before they were issued with Minimis (F89 in Australian service)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2016, 04:31:00 AM »
While you two reminisce about good times how about some fictional weapons:

M41A Pulse Rifle (from "Aliens")





M56 Smart Gun (also from "Aliens"):



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2016, 07:08:41 AM »
M-60.......Shudder......almost impossible to strip without drawing blood.  Best bit was the second there was blood there was a medic with a tetanus shot, if you couldn't tell the date of your last booster they jabbed you, I ended up with so many antibodies that when I donated blood they used it to make more tetanus vaccine.

Ha ha, so true.
At least the additional blood would have lubricated the bloody thing.
It's ironic, but for years I attempted too come up with a make-shift foregrip for the 60, but the 'system' use to flip out about "unauthorised modifications.....".
It was only years latter when training with the Yanks, that I had the opportunity in the form.of the M60E, to appreciate the comfort and usability of a foregripped 60 (add to this the relief and foresight of moving those stupid blood legs from the barrel to the body!!!)
Saying this, I would given the spleen of my enemy to have had the same foregrip on the ungainly to carry MAG-58!! :P

M.A.D

I believe 6 RAR used the perforated sheet from the M-60 bi pod on the MAG-58 to make it easier to carry, they also apparently were able to obtain BRENs when they changed from Scout/Command, Gun and Rifle group in each section to two fire teams before they were issued with Minimis (F89 in Australian service)

British Army sections often used to carry a Bren in the days when the official equipment scale was one GPMG (MAG-58) per section. Got a pic somewhere of the two gunners and it doesn't half make the size difference clear.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2016, 07:23:46 AM »
While you two reminisce about good times how about some fictional weapons:

M41A Pulse Rifle (from "Aliens"):


M56 Smart Gun (also from "Aliens"):



If I remember correctly, the Pulse Rifle was a Thompson M1A1 SMG fitted with the guts of a Franchi SPAS-12 auto-shotgun to provide the 'grenade launcher'. People in the replica props world make kits of the moulded bodywork so that you build your own (obviously easier in the US where you've a reasonable chance of getting hold of the donor guns). You can also get Airsoft and Paintball versions of it.

The Smart Gun was a hacked-around MG-42 machine-gun fitted with motorbike handgrips and controls and attached to a modified Steady-Cam harness. Can't recall what the triangular frames were but they were 'salvagel too IIRC I don't think there's much available as off-the-shelf conversions for this one because there really wern't many custom parts on it anyway, so it's pretty easy to throw together if you can get the bits. Again, there are Airsoft and Paintball versions too.

EDIT: just realised what the triangular frames were: they're motorcycle pillion footpeg brackets, presumably off the the same scrap bikes they took the hand controls from.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 07:27:19 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2016, 09:00:59 AM »
Yep, definitely looks like a Thompson / SPAS and an MG42, I was actually going to post something about it when I saw you beat me to it.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2016, 10:35:48 AM »
I could never figure out why anybody would want to have a weapon, like the MG3 clone, which could only be operated when the firer was upright.  It just makes the firer a bigger target.

I wonder how much the Pulse Rifle contributed to the XM25 development concept?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2016, 03:31:41 AM »
Not sure if this qualifies as a "small" arm:  Lahti L-39 20 mm anti-tank rifle




Well look what popped up on Forgotten Weapons today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qHv_XEAZg

Not just a tech/history talk but some actual shooting too. Think the biggest danger from this gun is that if Ian's grin gets any wider the top of his head will fall off...  ;D
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline perttime

  • The man has produced a Finnish Napier Heston Fighter...need we say more?
Re: Small Arms
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2016, 03:16:32 PM »
I think somebody already pointed out that the gun in the photo is not the Lahti "Norsupyssy" (Elephant Gun).
Weight    49.5 kg (109 lb)
Cartridge    20×138mmB
Action    Gas-operated
Muzzle velocity    800 m/s (2,600 ft/s)
Feed system    10 rounds box magazine

Here's some re-enactors playing with a dual anti-aircraft version - at a laid back airshow...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8YzSleYxos

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Small Arms
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2017, 08:07:33 PM »
Pay attention to MP-44 and MG-42 sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-oB-iTRb6k

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2018, 05:19:45 PM »
With Panzerfaust



Again Kar98, MP40, MP44
 

Offline Story

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2018, 04:12:43 AM »

The larger Solothurn S-18/1000 did come with a two wheel mount/carriage that could be towed or hauled by several soldiers.  The trails rotated to lock the barrel in place and a "T-Bar" was attached to the gun barrel and used to pull the weapon. 

This thumbnail image from Wikipedia shows some of the details:

See the larger image at the source page

Imagine waiting with that weapon to break a Matilda's track at kissing distances.

Offline Story

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2018, 06:16:28 AM »
or perhaps a further development of the abandoned TuF MG?



An air-cooled version of this would be ideal for the main battery onboard a Pulp Dieselpunk Zeppelin.


Offline Story

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2018, 06:30:07 AM »

Again Kar98, MP40, MP44
 

Extend barrel, add bipod and w/o the fully-loaded spring-powdered 100 round 7,92x33 dopple trommel, come in at around 17 lbs.


Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2018, 09:36:09 AM »
^^^^
You got a nice design!

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2018, 10:23:29 AM »
@Story - The S-18/1000 is my all time favourite 20mm AT Rifle.  Huge and heavy but oh so pretty.  :)

I have had three models of the S-18/1000.  The first was cast pewter/lead/white metal and may have been 1:32nd scale.  I have no idea who made this metal model but at the time it was probably the only one available until resin became a more widely used modeling material.  I sent the metal model to LemonJello several years ago to give him a shot at figuring out what to do with the thing after some correspondence on the subject. 

The next model of the S-18/1000 was in resin from a now out of business Italian company called Criel.  It was a step up from the metal model in that it included a carriate and the two ammunition chests plus the ground mounting feet for the weapon.  Very flimsy and fragile and the barrel never looked quite right.  I ended up with two, one I know is original and the other I suspect is a copy made from an original.  Both were purchased from the same person but several years apart.  One of these will be going to a new forever home with LemonJello as soon as I finish sorting some other things out for his "care package." 

The third model of the S-18/1000 was recently offered by CMK and it is far superior to the metal model from the unknown company and resin model from Criel.  Both of these models look rather primitive in comparison to what CMK has created.  Here is a link to the model at the CMK e-Store: https://www.cmkkits.com/en/detail-sets-accessories/129-3140/.  It may be OOP at the moment but if you like the Solothurn S-18/1000 this is by far the best model yet of this subject. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:25:35 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Story

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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2018, 02:29:27 PM »
@Story - The S-18/1000 is my all time favourite 20mm AT Rifle.  Huge and heavy but oh so pretty.  :)

I have had three models of the S-18/1000.  The first was cast pewter/lead/white metal and may have been 1:32nd scale. 

I think I had the same kit, shoe-horned it into a resin CV-33/35. No pics, gave that one away.

Meanwhile, Hungarian.


Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2018, 05:40:06 PM »
^^^ Who needs brakes! ;) ^^^
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Story

  • Nicht mein Zirkus, nicht meine Affen...
Re: Small Arms
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2018, 02:34:08 AM »
The crew looks like they stepped off the set of the Grand Budapest Hotel (an excellent film).
Behold, Republic of Zubrowka Federal troops circa 1932.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:44:38 AM by Story »

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
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Re: Small Arms
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2018, 11:27:22 AM »
^^^ Who needs brakes! ;) ^^^
To keep from going backward when fired from a stopped position?