Author Topic: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations  (Read 7238 times)

Offline Volkodav

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County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« on: April 21, 2014, 09:54:16 AM »
Atlantic Models 1/350 HMS Glamorgan

http://www.steelnavy.net/AtlanticGlamorgan350Bustelo.html

Too big and too expensive for my whiffing budget but wow!

Love the Counties, so big, so much potential, such a waste in the end with some retired after only 13 years service.  Discussions on other threads about the Spruance's, being reminded of Weavers alternate US equipped RN FAA etc. and then reading this review on the Glamorgan kit got me thinking about the RN in general but this class specifically. 

From Friedman's "Post War Naval Revolution" it appears the UK was limited in how many Sea Slug systems, or specifically directors they could manufacture, this in turn led to a restriction in the number of ships that could be built. i.e. one cruiser with two directors or one destroyer with one director each a year.  Lets say the UK decided to adopt US missile systems under MAP instead of using Sea Slug on some or all of their missile ships.  Thus instead of being limited by Sea Slug the Counties could have been ordered in three distinct variants.

1. Talos CLG incorporating type 984 radar, a modified Mk7 GMLS as used on the Cleveland Class CLGs for 30-40 Talos missiles inplace of the Sea Slug, with two directors aft.  Forward B turret would have been replaced with either a Mk11 or a Mk13 GMLS for 40 Tartar and A turret replaced with a single Vickers Mk6 3"L70 twin and twin 35 or 40mm in place of Sea Cat.  Depending on top weight, maybe no gun at all.

2. Terrier DLG, basically a RN County but with Terrier and two directors vs Sea Slug and one director

3. Tartar DDG (also exported to Australia), helicopter flight deck moved to extreme aft where Sea Slug launcher had been situated, large hanger built semi-recessed into the hull under old Helicopter flight deck.  Mk11 or Mk 13 GMLS installed immediately forward of the hanger recessed into deck, two directors installed in dechhouse between launcher and aft funnel.  Forward of aft funnel as for DLG version.

All I need now is an affordable 1/700 County to bash.

Another option is a scaleorama 1/600 to 1/700 County CLAA with the 5.25" twins I have left from my KGV BBG WIP, a sort of a RN equivalent to the Colbert, Giuseppe Garibaldi, De Ruyter post war Euro CGs

Offline Cliffy B

  • Ship Whiffer Extraordinaire...master of Beyond Visual Range Modelling
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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 10:36:07 AM »
A Terrier (1 Mk-10 with 2 SPG-55s) equipped County would have made for a far more capable ship.  If you want ideas, look at the USN Farragut Class DDGs (DDG-37-46).  The County's are more or less RN versions of the USN ships.  Dimensions, displacements, layouts, all very similar. 

I'd personally slot some Harpoons some amidships later in life and add an ASROC launcher in place of B turret.  Phalanx can go in place of the Sea Cats or possibly Light weight Sea Wolf in 4 round box launchers or 2 round trainable launchers with integrated reloads (think mini RN Sea Dart or USN Mk-26 but with fully enclosed missile boxes and not exposed rails).  If LW Sea Wolf if chosen then Phalanx can go amidships somewhere.

I honestly believe if they had had a better missile system then they would have lasted in service far longer.
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 11:31:09 AM »
A Terrier (1 Mk-10 with 2 SPG-55s) equipped County would have made for a far more capable ship.  If you want ideas, look at the USN Farragut Class DDGs (DDG-37-46).  The County's are more or less RN versions of the USN ships.  Dimensions, displacements, layouts, all very similar. 

I honestly believe if they had had a better missile system then they would have lasted in service far longer.

Pretty much exactly my thinking, Terrier or Talos to replace Sea Slug and Tartar as an alternative setup.  Possible upgrades to the class in the 70s could have included Seawolf but also Sea Sparrow (see Tromp or the Audace upgrade).  Phalanx definitely post Falklands but twin 35mm Oerlikon or 40mm Breda Bofors before hand. 

On my scaleorama multiple Oto Melara 76mm could be a possibility or even a Tiger Class Gun armament with missiles replacing the aft 6". i.e. 6" or 5.25 forward in A, 3" twin in B and a pair or 3" mid / aft port and starboard.

If the ships had US systems the RAn would likely have bought  / built three of them instead of the CFA DDGs

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 07:59:38 PM »
The dubious missile system was certainly one reason why they were retired early, but another was manning: you could get a lot more lean-manned, fully gas-turbine-powered Type 42's for your wages budget than you could Counties or COSAG Type 82s.

The County was so utterly designed around Sea Slug that's it's hard to imagine an alternative being a viable refit. The ships could certainly have been designed from scratch to use US missiles and probably should have been: after all, it was the RN who asked for Tartar in the first place!  ::). However, they would have been unrecognisably different from the historical Counties.

Shipbucket now has a much-improved weapons page with some below decks diagrams and this gives you a real sense of just how much volume all long-range SAMs take up:

http://www.shipbucket.com/images.php?dir=Parts Sheets/Royal Navy Weapons Parts.png
http://www.shipbucket.com/images.php?dir=Parts Sheets/US Navy Missile Launchers 5.png

1. Note that the vertical Sea Slug magazine shown on the RN link was never built.

2. Note how particularly compact the Mk.11 and Mk.13 launchers for Tartar/SM-1 are for the number of missiles they carry. This is why they're so popular with other, smaller navies. Had the RN gone for Tartar, you might well imagine the Sea Dart (which owed more to the excellent Bloodhound than Sea Slug) having it's dimensions slightly tweaked to fit the same launcher, which would then have opened up the prospect of serious exports, perhaps even to the USN! (Don't get carried away though: Sea Dart also needed seriously big fire control radars)

As an aside, I think the Mk.13 GMLS is one of the most beautiful bits of industrial design I've ever seen: talk about making the box better by thinking outside it!  8)

My personal favorite mod for the Counties is the one that Chile did for real on two of their second-hand ones: make it a DDH. Dump the Sea Slug entirely, extend the helo deck to the stern and the hangar to the deck edges and carry two seriously big ASW helos (Pumas for Chile, but Sea Kings would fit too). Air defence of the Chilean ships is two Israeli Barak VLS on the old Seacat director platforms with fore and aft fire-control radar with excellent arcs.

You might imagine that a slightly richer RN could do the same thing to the Counties in the 1970s. As each Sea Dart ship (Type 42/type 82/whatever) comes into service, a County goes in for the DDH treatment. The result would be 16 extra Sea Kings in the fleet without taking up one square inch of space on the carriers, and that would allow the Invincibles to carry 10-12 SHARs instead of 6.

Chilean Counties:


(before the Baraks were added)





 
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 10:12:55 PM »
Thanks Weaver, great shots of the Chilean Counties, I hadn't seen those before.

Designing the County around US systems is the idea as trying to replace Sea Slug in a refit would be near impossible, better to have never used it at all.
I could be wrong but I believe Talos in the Cleveland conversions took up less space than Sea Slug in the Counties.

http://www.okieboat.com/Talos%20launching%20system.html

The Talos CLGs with Tartar and Type 984 would have been manpower intensive ships but would have made sense in the late 50s when they were looking at 18000-20000ton new build cruisers and had previously been considering converted battleships and even re-engine (for more power and speed) CVLs for the air defence role.  I suppose its my take on a RN equivalent to the Longbeach or probably more like a cheaper to run alternative to an Albany type conversion of a cruiser, BB or carrier, an escort leader and or flagship.

The Terrier County was exactly that, a County built around Terrier instead of Sea Slug, a contemporary and equivalent to the Farragut / Coontz Class, the DLG, the purpose designed high end carrier escort.

The Tartar County has no RN equivalent but would have been a larger more capable DDG than the US Charles F Adams Class and a replacement for the Daring and Battle Class DDs.  Replacing Sea Slug with Tartar would have reduced manning requirements, don't know by how much 50-75 just guessing, as its a DDG and not a DLG remove some of the command overheads the DLG was designed with.  Retaining the helicopter well actually improving on the helicopter facilities would also be a priority.  Look at the aft quarter shot of the Chilean County, imagine a squared off flight deck at quarter deck level, hanger built in below or very slightly raised above the main flight deck level and a MK13 sitting flush roughly between where the Allouette III is sitting and the hangers and the directors mounted where the hanger is.  THis is the one I want to build, I know what it looks like in my mind but just need to build it so I can show everyone what I mean.

From discussions on this thread already I think I can add a fourth County type to the mix, the DDH, massive hanger, big flight deck, possibly the forward Tartar / 3" L70 arrangement of the Talos ship, maybe a Mk22 instead of Mk13.

Final part, as suggested, UK adopts Tartar and then develops Sea Dart to fit not just the Mk11,13,22 GMLS but also does a long booster version to fit the MK10 on the Terrier Counties there by retaining the type into the 90s.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 11:25:30 PM »
On a slight tangent (and something easier to model I hope) the other related project is the Super Daring.  Can't lay my hands on it at the moment but I have a write up in one of my books outlining the sketches and proposals that spaned from the Darings through to the Counties. 

Most of them were iterations of the Super Daring, 2x Type 12 plant producing 60000 shp, four turrets A, B, X, Y, a bank of torpedoes and Limbo.  The guns were permutations of the MK6 4.5" and the 3"L70, i.e. 4.5" in A, B and Y with 3" in X and another was from memory 4.5" A and Y, 3" B and X. 

My take on this is Australia seeing the County as too large, complex, manpower intensive and expensive opted instead for an evolved Super Daring to be constructed locally in the early to mid 60s.  The ship had 4.5" in A and Y, US Mk22 GMLS in B and X for Tartar, two missile and two gun / missile directors Ikara magazine and launchers between the funnels in place of the heavy weight torpedoes 4 twin or single power operated light automatics (30, 35, or 40mm) to counter low level air threads and light surface targets or two twin and a pair od Sea Cat.  Basically a tough GP DDG designed and built based on RAN experience in SEA.

Will be requesting permission to buy an OZMODS Vampire to build this one

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 01:51:52 AM »
Not sure the Talos County would have been affordable, but how about this for a late-1950s/early-1960s plan?

DDG : 8 x new County class hulls (instead of the real ones) with one twin 3" Mk.6 in A-pos, octuple ASROC in B-pos, SPS-39 in place of Type 965, two Seacat port and starboard amidships, two SPG-51 in place of the helo hangar and type 901, one Mk.10 GMLS aft for 40 x Terrier.

(ASROC was available well before Ikara. I know Mk.10 can fire ASROC as well, but having the separate launcher means you get the maximum number of SAM rounds)


DLG : 8 x refitted Darings with twin 3" Mk.6 in A-pos, extended bridge covering B-pos (need the command space), two Seacat port and starboard amidships, all TTs landed and replaced by radar offices, SPS-39 in place of Type 965, two SPG-51 aft, Mk.11 or Mk.13 GMLS with 40 x Tartar in X-pos, squid ASW mortar on the quarterdeck.

(The French T-47s were the same size as the Darings and four of them were refitted with Mk.13, so the claim that the latter were too small is clearly bunk.)


DDH : when it's realised that the rundown in carreir numbers will create a shortage of ASW helos, do NOT refit the two Tigers. Instead build four new DDHs based on the County design but with split deck-edge rear (GT) funnels and a mack in place of the forward (steam) funnel. Armament is one twin 3" Mk.6 in A-pos, one Mk.13 GMLS with 40 x Tartar in B-pos, three Wessex/SeaKing in a hangar that extends between the aft funnels, helo deck to the stern with VDS underneath it, twin Seacat on the hangar roof.


That gets you eight Terrier and twelve Tartar systems to sea, all of them upgradeable to Standard or Sea Dart as required.


I might do Shipbucket profiles for these yet, but not tonight - already supposed to be doing something else!  ::)





« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:55:47 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 04:05:55 AM »
The County was so utterly designed around Sea Slug that's it's hard to imagine an alternative being a viable refit. The ships could certainly have been designed from scratch to use US missiles and probably should have been: after all, it was the RN who asked for Tartar in the first place!  ::). However, they would have been unrecognisably different from the historical Counties.

I've been kinda thinking of the possibility to simply fitting an adequate modern seeker to the missile and corresponding fire control improvement to the ship.

Granted, such an undertaking would still imply some open access to US and Western European technologies, and the natural conclusion to such open access would be outright purchase of Standard or Sea Dart system ships......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 04:34:34 AM »
No I've often thought that too: build what amounts to a new missile that uses the Seaslug launcher and magazine. The trouble is that by the time it was worth doing technically, there were only eight ships in the world that might use it, so not much of a market. You'd also still have the problems of the slow rate of fire of the launcher/magazine, and the single target designator radar on the Counties.

Another thought would be to make the Seaslug launcher actually fire Sea Darts. You might be able to make a boxed "quad pack" of Sea Darts that could be loaded onto the modified launcher in place of one Seaslug, thus giving eight ready-fire rounds for every reloading. you could probably store more quad packs than Seaslugs too, since you wouldn't need the assembly and check-out area: Sea Dart is a "round of ammunition". However the quad packs would be pretty heavy things, and you'd still have to find space up top to mount two 909s to make it a worthwhile exercise.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 06:04:50 AM »
I really should learn how to do Shipbucket profiles to illustrate my ideas, just never gotten around to it.  You been doing it long Weaver, how difficult / time consuming is it?

Failing that I could buy a couple of OzMods Vampires and play with them.

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 04:56:14 AM »
Never done one from scratch and never submitted one to shipbucket. I just nick profiles from their database, modify them to explore my ideas and post them on modelling forums. I do try to stick to shipbucket rules as much as possible though, in particular, always crediting the artists who drew the original profile I modified.

It's not difficult, since the principle picture editor is MS Paint which is about as simple as it gets. It can be very time-consuming though, 'cos Paint has no "smart" features or layers and very simplistic drawing tools, so you have to do everything pixel by pixel. You have to be very methodical too, because the picture is just one layer of pixels and the Undo function has limited memory, so once you've changed something it stays changed.

I end up working on a much bigger canvas than the final profile so that I can make safety copies of each area I work on before starting to screw it up!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 05:01:47 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 06:36:58 AM »
Great, thanks for that.  Looking at the parts sheet you linked I think i will have to give it a go.

The dream is to one day draft and print components and models like Uncle Les does but cant see it happening any time soon.  One of the streams I studied in my mech eng was CAD CAM and another was Detail Design so I actually have qualifications and experience in a variety of 2 and 3D modelling / drafting packages.  Always wanted to apply this to my hobby but due to time and expense, never have.  With 3 D Printing taking off it is getting even more tempting but still the old issues of time and money come back.  The thought of being able to draw an item, say a hull, then just print it before mating it to a modified superstructure and then simply dropping in the selected printed equipment, sort of like a 3D Shipbucket.  Seriously looking at refreshing my skills again for career reasons, i.e. getting too old and broken for the hands on stuff but could see myself updating drawings, producing repair plans etc for workpacks, if it just happened to tie in with my hobby as well..... 8)

Probably should lift a County profile and try one of my concepts and see who it goes.  Really want to do the DDG and see if the concept works in the "pixels"  ;)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 09:59:00 AM »

Probably should lift a County profile and try one of my concepts and see who it goes.  Really want to do the DDG and see if the concept works in the "pixels"  ;)


I did a very rough check on the Terrier County using shipbucket bits the other night. I think it works, though you only get two magazine rings in. The new parts sheets with below decks layouts and deck levels are very helpful.

Incidentally, loads of Seaslug info here: http://www.littlewars.org.uk/seaslug.html
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 11:26:09 AM »
I am pretty confident that a Mk13 would slot through the fight deck quite easily and that the Sea Slug system loading bay could be converted into a hanger with a new flight deck on the quarter deck.  What would be interesting is if part of the space used for the sea slug magazine further forward could be used for Ikara and then Ikara launchers installed port and starboard in cut outs or behind doors in the hull sides in the midriff of the ship.  Another thought is replace the MK6 4.5" in A with a Mk42 5" and the one in B with a Mk6 3" twin or alternatively Sea Cat, BPDMS, Sea Chaparel or even a Mk22 GMLS for a double ended Tartar arrangement.

The other thought I had ref the scaleorama 1/600 County to 1/700 CLG is a Mk26 6" in A, a Mk6" 3" in B and another pair of 3" arranged port and starboard adjacent to the hanger with Talos aft.  Hears hoping Orange Hobby offer the Type 984 as an accessory.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2014, 04:56:11 AM »
I am pretty confident that a Mk13 would slot through the fight deck quite easily and that the Sea Slug system loading bay could be converted into a hanger with a new flight deck on the quarter deck. 

Hmm, some things to think about:

1. The Seaslug magazine is not immediately below the flight deck: it's one deck lower and there's a level of "normal" compartments above it (mess decks IIRC), so anything you fit through the flight deck also goes through those. That's by no means impossible of course, since you could always re-arrange those compartments elsewhere, but it needs thinking about. A Mk.13 GMLS is two decks deep, so it would definately need some rearranging.

2. The Seaslug magazine is only one deck high whereas even the smallest helo hangars are two decks high, so you couldn't simply convert the former into the latter. Again, if you were redesigning the ship on the drawing board, you could re-arrange the compartments, but everything has to go somewhere and the two components, hangar and magazine, are not the same shape.

3. The quarter deck has very low freeboard: possibly too low for a flight deck. The step down to the quarter deck is two decks high, so you could perhaps have a stern flight deck one level lower than the real one, but not two, and in that case, the new hangar wouldn't fit under the existing flight deck level.

Suggestion: if you don't want too big a helo, what you could do is make a stern flight deck that's also an elevator. The hangar floor is level with the quarterdeck, the helo is rolled out backwards onto the flight deck, and the flight deck them elevates two decks to conduct flight ops. Is this a good idea? maybe, maybe not, but there are semi-precedents: the Tribal class frigates had an elevating hangar floor for their Wasps, several Soviet types had semi-sunken hangars where the helo rolled in (the hangar roof folded back) and the floor them dropped a deck before the roof was closed again, and the USN Virginias had a below-decks hangar at the stern with an elevator, although in that case the elevator was enclosed.


Quote
What would be interesting is if part of the space used for the sea slug magazine further forward could be used for Ikara and then Ikara launchers installed port and starboard in cut outs or behind doors in the hull sides in the midriff of the ship. 

Certainly doable, since Ikara was way smaller than Seaslug, but only with the RAN Ikara system with it's horizontal magazine next to the launcher. The RN Seaslug had a totally different magazine arrangement, deep below the waterline like a gun magazine (of course the Leander installations were converted gun magazines, but Bristol was built like that) with the missiles stowed vertically and lifted up to the assembly room on a hoist. The reason for this difference was that the RN wanted the option of using a nuclear depth bomb on Ikara, and felt that the Aussie magazine was too vulnerable, insecure (since it wasn't manned) and didn't allow the selection of two different missiles or for a nuclear bomb to be fitted and armed.

As it turned out, the RN never got it's nukes for Ikara, so in whiff world, you could say that they gave up on them earlier and bought the horizontal magazine system, and it's associated electric launcher rather than the over-complicated hydraulic one the RN actually bought, instead. I've certainly used the horizontal magazine in some of my RN ideas as it gives useful options for side-mounted launchers that don't use centreline space.

Quote
Another thought is replace the MK6 4.5" in A with a Mk42 5" and the one in B with a Mk6 3" twin or alternatively Sea Cat, BPDMS, Sea Chaparel or even a Mk22 GMLS for a double ended Tartar arrangement.

I think you could probably get a Mk.13 in B pos.  Mk.22 was designed to literally drop into the same hole in the deck as a 5" gun mount, but Mk.13 is actually about the size of most below-decks gun houses, so if you're willing to cut a bigger hole in the deck, you can have a LOT more missiles.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2014, 10:17:16 AM »
A double ended "Tartar" County class DDG sounds good to me, it would definitely make the extra size and crew worth while.

Offline dy031101

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  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 06:07:58 AM »
you could probably store more quad packs than Seaslugs too, since you wouldn't need the assembly and check-out area: Sea Dart is a "round of ammunition".

One thing that has just started to puzzle me now is this: how did the scheme with assembly and check-out area come to be?  Why didn't the British design the magazine to just house ready-use Sea Slug missiles?

Wikipedia states that the four Batch 2 vessels carried some of their missiles in partially disassembled form to increase their complement of missiles.  What about Batch 1- do they still have the assembly and check-out area?  What exactly is the difference between the handling facilities of Sea Slug Mk.1 and Mk.2?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 08:07:46 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 08:41:00 AM »
One thing that has just started to puzzle me now is this: how did the scheme with assembly and check-out area come to be?  Why didn't the British design the magazine to just house ready-use Sea Slug missiles?


Just a few minutes ago I finally had some luck over Google:

According to this, Sea Slug Mk.I had liquid-fuel boosters that are said to have to be stored empty before combat and fuelled prior to being sent into ready-use magazine, hence the assembly and check-out areas.  Sea Slug Mk.II had solid-fuel boosters, but by the time they came around, it's too late to change the handling facility for the Batch 2 Counties.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 11:41:17 PM »
Assembly and check-out areas wern't uncommon for 1st gen SAMs. Somebody posted a detailed description of the Talos magazine system on Cleveland class cruisers and it had all these features. Even Terrier and SM-1ER had to have fins manually fitted when used from Mk.10 launchers. The checkout function is needed because all these weapons have relatively fragile vacuum tube electronics that require routine inspection and maintenance, so you need the ability to "shunt" a missile into a checkout area, without blocking the magazine-to-launcher path, inspect and repair it, and then return it to the magazine. Essentially they're more like little aeroplanes than gun rounds.
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Offline davecov

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 02:35:55 AM »
I served on HMS Antrim from 1978 to 1981 and have some memory of the Sea Slug system. Whenever we were doing a Sea Slug shoot I was a Sea Slug sentry. Sentries were placed on all openings to the upper deck in the aft area of the ship to prevent people going up onto the upper deck during a firing. I manned the hatch by the galley which opened onto the upper deck next to the starboard side of the hangar. The downside of being the sentry was that we used to have a four-hour countdown. There were two perks of being sentry though. Firstly, I could pop my head up through the hatch and see the missiles go off - a very impressive sight! Secondly, my mates in the galley would keep me fed with bacon rolls!

If I remember rightly, the missiles were stored in the main magazine and there were side lanes to port and starboard which were used to shuffle the missiles around, depending on whether drill or live rounds were to be used. I think the aft part of the main magazine was where the final assembly was carried out. The bulkheads on each side of the magazine had blast doors which in the event of an explosion within the magazine allowed the force of the blast to exit the magazine and travel along the passageways.

When we left Singapore, the Sea Slug side lanes were filled with fifty bicylces that the crew had bought ashore. To make matters worse, our Sea Cat ready use magazines were filled with stereos and electronic equipment we had bought in Japan, Hong Kong and China. We would have lost a lot of gear if we had to go to war!

The Sea Slug system was already obsolete as an AA weapon when I was onboard. However, we did try a surface shoot and the missile hit the water in front of the target, went underneath it, and came out of the water the other side!

BTW, there was talk about converting the Batch II Counties to minelayers with the Sea Slug mags filled with mines. Obviously it never came to anything.

Dave
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 04:29:06 AM by davecov »

Offline dy031101

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 01:21:28 PM »
Assembly and check-out areas wern't uncommon for 1st gen SAMs......
I served on HMS Antrim from 1978 to 1981 and have some memory of the Sea Slug system......

 :)

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Most materials I came across seem to make a point distinguishing between Batch 1 Counties with Sea Slug Mk.1 and Batch 2 with Sea Slug Mk.2; are the two systems that incompatible with one another?

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No I've often thought that too: build what amounts to a new missile that uses the Seaslug launcher and magazine. The trouble is that by the time it was worth doing technically, there were only eight ships in the world that might use it, so not much of a market. You'd also still have the problems of the slow rate of fire of the launcher/magazine, and the single target designator radar on the Counties.

I'm kinda wondering which one of them is easier to reverse-engineer purely from a hardware point of view: Terrier or Sea Slug?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 06:58:16 PM »
Assembly and check-out areas wern't uncommon for 1st gen SAMs......
I served on HMS Antrim from 1978 to 1981 and have some memory of the Sea Slug system......

 :)

=====================================================

Most materials I came across seem to make a point distinguishing between Batch 1 Counties with Sea Slug Mk.1 and Batch 2 with Sea Slug Mk.2; are the two systems that incompatible with one another?

=====================================================

I think I'm right in saying that you can't use Mk.1 missiles in the Mk.2 system. To be honest, it probably would have been possible to upgrade the Batch 1 ships to Batch 2 standard and then upgrade all eight of them to a hypothetical Seaslug Mk.3. The reason why it wasn't done was more to do with changing politics and budgets. The Counties were originally conceived as aircraft-carrier escorts and with the declared end of carrier aviation in the late 1960s, the cancellation of the follow-on Type 82s and a general move towrds smaller, cheaper ships, the Counties began to look like an expensive, over-manned anachronism. The RN really didn't get much usage out of them: some lasted little more than a decade.

My little world has the Counties replaced by eight Type 84s (hypothetical stretched Type 82s) and then converted to ASW destroyers with a "Chilean job" double helo hangar and flight deck fitted in order to get ASW helos off the carriers and enable them to carry more strike aircraft. However, that's a world where the UK in general and the RN in particular has a significantly larger budget and an unswerving commitment to carriers.




Quote
No I've often thought that too: build what amounts to a new missile that uses the Seaslug launcher and magazine. The trouble is that by the time it was worth doing technically, there were only eight ships in the world that might use it, so not much of a market. You'd also still have the problems of the slow rate of fire of the launcher/magazine, and the single target designator radar on the Counties.

I'm kinda wondering which one of them is easier to reverse-engineer purely from a hardware point of view: Terrier or Sea Slug?

Probably not much in it in the sense of replacing vacuum tube electronics with digital. However the real problem is that a "re-build" of a Sea Slug would have to be so extensive (fitting a SARH head in the nose in particular) that it would probably be easier to just design a new missile that used the same motor and boosters.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 08:08:19 PM »
Pathe news reel about Glamorgan here: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/hms-glamorgan-computer-ship-of-the-future

Worth watching, for both info and comedy nostalgia value.... ;D
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline davecov

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2014, 03:17:33 AM »
Everything is relative, I guess. One day we will be chuckling at video clips of the Type 45s - if we are not already doing so!

Dave

Offline dy031101

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2014, 10:13:52 AM »
Probably not much in it in the sense of replacing vacuum tube electronics with digital. However the real problem is that a "re-build" of a Sea Slug would have to be so extensive (fitting a SARH head in the nose in particular) that it would probably be easier to just design a new missile that used the same motor and boosters.

That's where I see it eventually going towards, too.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: County Class Destroyers Ideas and Inspirations
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
Here's another thought: the RN was serious about using Sea Slug in the anti-ship MICAWBER mode. What if they'd taken it a stage further and, after new Sea Dart ships came in to do the AAW work, converted the Counties to pure anti-ship? The Sea Slugs get MARTEL homing heads (both anti-radar and TV), the 901 is taken off and the hangar extended to take a Sea King adapted for missile targeting.

The Sea King would have ESM gear and MARTEL data-link aerials on either side. First it would find the target ship by passive ESM, then it would send that info back to the County so that a pair of Sea Slug ARM rounds could be tuned. Then, after an ARM salvo has degraded the target's AAW capability, the Sea King switches on it's radar while flying parallel to the target, the spine-mounted aerial being able to see both the target and the County. It then uses it's data-link aerials to guide Sea Slug TV rounds, first tracking them by radar then locking their homing heads onto the target. If the target's still in any servicable shape after 4+ Sea Slug hits, the County can then close in with it's 4 x 4.5" guns.....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith