Author Topic: Antipodean Armourfest!  (Read 7512 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2014, 11:30:17 AM »
All I can see is "this image is current unavailable"...

Fixed
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2014, 11:30:45 AM »
And another view of the M1A1:

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Offline raafif

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2014, 01:58:24 PM »
"It was a bonza idea of yours to dump that extra armour & mount the slabs of beer, mate ! Now we won't haft'a wait for the supply trucks to catch us up."

« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 02:05:24 PM by raafif »

Online Rickshaw

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2014, 08:31:39 PM »
"It was a bonza idea of yours to dump that extra armour & mount the slabs of beer, mate ! Now we won't haft'a wait for the supply trucks to catch us up."




"But didcha have to get XXXX?"   :o

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2015, 02:15:20 PM »
Weird ideas rattling around in my head again, at least the voices have gone.

How about a couple of quite minor changes in WWI and between the wars. 

First Lt Gen Harry Chauvel is able to obtain tanks, armoured cars and armoured lorries in sufficient numbers to reequip a brigade of the Desert Mounted Corps by late 1917.  As successful as the horse cavalry are the armoured and mechanised brigade is even more so, in fact so successful is the integration of armour, motorisation, aviation and traditional cavalry that the fiction that the Arabs captured Damascus is impossible to engineer as the whole world witnesses the combined arms campaign that captures not just Palestine and Syria but also most of Turkey south of the Dardanelles.

In France Monash is not only delivering on his immensely successful, precise, planned to the minute battles, but has secured significant equipment to create a tank corps, converting five AIF infantry brigades into motor brigades to provide each division with its own organic tanks, armoured cars and troop transport, also dramatically expanding the AFC to provide direct support to the Australian Corps.  This had the effect of dramatically reducing casualties, while even further increasing their successes, in the last year of the war meaning Australian forces were able to remain at the forefront through to Armistice, gaining much greater recognition than they actually did.

Finally, armed with the proven effect of combined arms operations and evidence that it could actually provide Australias military, with its limited man power, much greater combat effect, the government listens to Monash and Chauvel when they recommend the formation of a standing motorised / mechanised army.  The AIF becomes the standing army and although greatly reduced in size, is fully motorised and partially mechanised over the next two decades.  Initially the 1st and 2nd Brigades, including their organic armour become regular, as do a number of other individual infantry, Light Horse, artillery, engineer and other regiments and battalions.  Remaining units are reserve for the rest of the 1st Division and 1st Light Horse Brigade being at the highest level and fully manned with large full time elements, while the remainder of the AIF is maintained at least cadre strength.

Additionally back in Australia a visionary industrialist, Edward James Devlin of Melbourne and his partners had dramatically expanded the embryonic lorry, coach and engine building division of their company, Devlin Holdings, Devlin Automotive, to not only licence produce regular cars and lorries but also design and manufacture armoured cars and armoured lorries.  Additionally Devlin ramped up a munitions arm, and as a matter of some urgency secured mining leases in the Pilbara Region of Western Australia, where massive iron ore reserves had been found in the 1880s, as well as large copper reserves in central South Australia, to feed the nations factories and the war effort.  While much of this came to fruition too late to contribute to the war it came to drive the growth of robust local automotive, transport, construction, mining, refining, shipping, shipbuilding and other industries with associated growth in road, rail and transport which inturn drove major road, rail and port projects through until rearmament took over in the late thirties.  Ironically a major export partner emerged in Japan, originally for ore and primary produce but also to a lessor degree manufactured goods, there was very real concern over Japans expansionist tendencies but overall it was considered more beneficial to work with them than to isolate them.

During the war substantial numbers of vehicles, munitions and raw materials were exported to, not only by the AIF and British Commonwealth Forces, but also by the US, French and Italians.  Armoured cars and lorries, in particular, were supplied in their tens of thousands directly to the United States as they had nothing comparable anywhere near production.  The 1929 Wall Street crash was a major shock but the infra structure programs were already underway and were more expensive to stop than continue, which meant the associated employment continued which kept the economy as a whole going.  Basically these projects drove immigration and population growth, so while times were hard, Australia suffered a series of recessions rather than a depression, the biggest factor in this was, instead of a crippling war debt, Australia was debt free and owed money by other nations, the main issue was the debtors were struggling to pay causing cash flow issues.

Back onto armour, the 2nd AIF is formed as in reality but as the 1st AIF still exists as a standing army and its reserve the 2nd AIF is named the Australian Expeditionary Force (as in the British Expeditionary Force) and its subordinate formations and units are numbered consecutively from the existing AIF formations and units, i.e. 61 Battalion, 16th Brigade, 6th Division AEF instead of 2/1 Australian Infantry Battalion.  As in reality the AEF is initially deployed to Palestine but the 8th Division is sent to the UK instead of Malaya, where as a matter of urgency, following the sock collapse of France, the 8th in the UK and 1 Corps in Palestine are converted from Infantry to Motor Infantry as quickly as possible.  This is achieved through reorganising the original four battalion per brigade establishment to three battalion brigades British establishments with the three spare battalions being converted to infantry tank battalions, thus each AEF (and subsequently AIF) division gains an infantry tank brigade, while the divisional cavalry are converted into cruiser, light tank, or armoured car regiments.  The AIF cavalry, long converted to armoured cars and lorries, gain cruiser tanks, tracked and half track APCs.

Post war armour is reorganised into six main steams.
- Armoured Cavalry with fast universal tanks (Comets / AC4/5 then Leopards), Kangaroo type Cavalry Fighting Vehicles, and tracked support elements including SPGs, tracted mortars, engineering vehicles etc.
- Cavalry with armoured cars and wheeled CFVs (Saladin, Saracen etc. then more modern types through to Centauro Ferricias etc.)
- Army Tank Brigade with five battalions of the Armoured Regiment Infantry tanks then MBTs (Churchill
- Royal Australian Regiment with an armoured support company in each battalion including fast universal tanks, SP tank destroyers / assault guns etc.
- Light Cavalry Regiment to support light forces (airborne and light infantry brigades)
- Marine Armoured Regiment to support RAM (USMC type armour)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2015, 12:48:20 AM »
Australia creates an independent Tank Brigade to support the 2nd AIF divisions in North Africa pending the arrival of the 1st Armoured Division.  As the brigade is formed from re-rolled Infantry battalions the decision is made to maintain the battalion structure, accordingly the 2nd AIFs 1st Tank Brigade is made up of the 1st through 5th battalions of the Australian Tank Regiment.  Initially it is equipped with Matildas but then re-equipped with Churchills, ending the war with MkVIIs and VIIIs, supported by AVREs, ARVs and bridge layers and most interestingly Black Prince tanks are issued one per troop, one troop per squadron and one squadron per regiment. 

Post war the brigade, along with the Royal Australian Regiment, becomes the core of the new standing army and it is re-equipped with Centurions during the early 50s, which in turn are replaced by Conquerors in the late 50s with the Centurions being passed to the CMF.  Eventually the Conquerors give way to Chieftains and Chieftains to Challengers.

There is a 2nd and 3rd Tank Brigade in the Citizen Military Forces with the 6th through 10th Btns forming the 2nd Bde and the 11th through 15th Btns, the 3rd Bde.  As more modern tanks are delivered to the 1st Tank Bde the older vehicles are modernised and cascaded to the CMF.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2015, 09:51:24 AM »
OK! Love the idea of the Chieftain!

I was going to question that decision but, after refreshing my memory against its major competitors (M-60 & Leo 1), it's not such a bad choice.

Shorter range & not as fast as the Leo but that big 120mm is sweet compensation, while the Chief's better range (67% better) & equal speed put the M-60 out of the picture.

Plus I'm a touch Anglophile, so British is good. ;)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2015, 02:46:10 AM »
Fuelling your idea:



From here
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2015, 09:41:48 PM »
OK! Love the idea of the Chieftain!

I was going to question that decision but, after refreshing my memory against its major competitors (M-60 & Leo 1), it's not such a bad choice.

Shorter range & not as fast as the Leo but that big 120mm is sweet compensation, while the Chief's better range (67% better) & equal speed put the M-60 out of the picture.

Plus I'm a touch Anglophile, so British is good. ;)

This is a whiff so how about the Australia ends up with all three, the Chieftain, Leopard 1 and M-60.  Basically the Tank Brigade (as well as its two CMF equivalents) are equipped with the better protected, bigger gunned British MBTs, Churchill, Centurion, Conqueror, Chieftain, Challenger and Challenger 2.  The Cavalry Regiments become ACRs with their light tanks and armoured cars replaced by Comets and Centurions then Leopards replacing both.  Then there is the RAM, previously mirroring the RM, begins mimicking the USMC and as such, among other changes, adds tanks to their ORBAT, initially M3 Stuarts then Lees and Grants and Shermans, skip the M-26, M-46, M-47 and M-103 but adopt the M-48, M-60 and M-1.

Anyway cunning plan time. Australia and Israel are both involved in the development of the Chieftain and neither is impressed with the Leyland L60 opposed 12 multi fuel.  Israel pushes for the adoption of the Continental V12 TD of the M-48A3,  Australia initially supports this but when Israel drops out the Australian army decides to used the more powerful MTU V10 of the Leopard (which, along with the Chieftain, is to be license produced locally) instead of the Continental as the M-48s are being procured through FMS.  This is an easy conversion as the engine bay had already been modified to fit the larger V12 Continental.

I am about to start building my Trumpeter 1/72 Challenger 1, trying to decide if its Australian based with the tricolour RAAC scheme, or a desert scheme for either the 91 Gulf war or possibly even the 2003 Iraq Invasion.

follows US practice and replaced light tanks with MBTs in their armoured cavalry / reconnaissance regiments, however as the Conqueror and Chieftain are clearly too heavy and lacking in mobility a lighter type is selected, i.e. the Leopard 1, which is in turn supplemented and replaced by improved Leopard 1 versions, then Leopard 2 and its improved versions.  As the Leopard has been selected as the cavalry tank the RAAC is familiar and impressed with its MTU V10 and recommend that the Australian Chieftain be fitted with this engine instead of the Leyland L60

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2015, 04:19:13 AM »
This is a whiff so how about the Australia ends up with all three, the Chieftain, Leopard 1 and M-60. 

Fine for a whiffverse but painful in the real world...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 04:22:02 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2015, 09:36:15 AM »
This is a whiff so how about the Australia ends up with all three, the Chieftain, Leopard 1 and M-60. 

Fine for a whiffverse but painful in the real world...
Agreed, the logistics "tail" would be large and expensive.  Now, standardizing between the three of them where you can could help, but still...

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2015, 11:25:03 PM »
Very true, I am usually the real world bloke asking why we are introducing something new or unique when there's already something suitable in use.  It could be a single bolt or an entire platform but it is always worth a look at where you can achieve commonality just so long as you don't go stupid, or make too many sacrifices, trying to achieve it.

What I'm proposing is complete fantasy and pretty unjustifiable, the only possible justification could be the units in question are actually aligned with larger formations within an alliance structure and as such the commonality required is with those allied organisations not the ADF.

The RAM is easy, they would have been closely aligned with the USMC and simply slotted into their logistics tail, we could even say that there was a joint training facility and prepositioned USMC equipment in Australia in an arrangement going back to WWII.  The equipment of the RAM with USMC standard gear could have been payment for the Australian facility.

Maybe the Tank Brigade could be an integral part of BAOR, rotating regiments through Germany, there would of course also be other elements, infantry, artillery, engineers.  Still thinking on the way forward, does my Tank Brigade support my armoured infantry or is it used to harden my light infantry?  If the later that means I get to add heavy armour to my armoured infantry ORBAT.  Maybe Hetzer, replaced by E-10 with 77mm HV, a 20pdr casemate TD (maybe a modified Kanonenjagdpanzer) as a replacement for the 6pdrs of the AT platoon and how about light tanks on a reconnaissance platoon?  If I'm being silly I may as well go all the way 8).

The Armoured Cavalry Regiments will be the cornerstone of continental defence and as such the only armoured force that actually requires a unique Australian logistics structure.  I just need to decide whether the armoured infantry ties in with the ACRs or the Tank Brigade.  It doesn't really matter as I can start building and sort out the back stories later.

1. ACR set up for continental defence, only deployed outside Australia in dire circumstances
2. Commonwealth solidarity sees Australia commit to NATO and rotate a tank battalion through BAOR, the rest of the Tank Brigade is assigned as reinforcements and even deploys during Reforger exercises.
3. The RAM armour is pretty much identical in doctrine, structure and equipment to the USMC, is designed to seamlessly integrate with the USMC and forms part of Australia's primary expeditionary capability.


Offline Volkodav

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2015, 08:07:20 PM »
It just dawned on me that my ideas of sand / buff painted Australian armour in Iraq / Afghanistan is irrelevant as ASLAVs and Bushmasters assigned to those theatres retained their standard Australian three tone cam.  Basically the scheme probably should work in most of the scenarios I've listed.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2015, 02:58:29 AM »
Afghanistan is actually quite green in areas:

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Online Rickshaw

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Re: Antipodean Armourfest!
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2015, 09:00:52 AM »
Afghanistan is actually quite green in areas:




In Spring/Early summer.   In high summer, it's usually green only down in the valleys where moisture is - particularly rivers/streams/creeks.   Otherwise in Summer/Winter it's pretty dreary apparently.