Author Topic: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas  (Read 70600 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #250 on: July 09, 2019, 05:16:57 AM »
Closer to the original F-16 concept of a simple light weight fighter.
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Offline perttime

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #251 on: July 09, 2019, 02:47:54 PM »
And more like the early MiG-21, when they were still good looking.
I think F-16 started in an era when you needed to have something that lets you see BVR.

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #252 on: July 10, 2019, 03:51:04 AM »
I think F-16 started in an era when you needed to have something that lets you see BVR.

If you look into the history of the F-16 and especially the lightweight Advanced Day Fighter (ADF) and Light Weight Fighter (LWF) programs that led to it, you will see that they were looking for something focussed originally on daytime dogfighting, with only minimal avionics being provided.  For instance, the YF-16 was closer to this when you compare to later production variants:




The below shows some of the changes made when making the F-16A let alone the later versions:

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Offline perttime

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #253 on: July 12, 2019, 09:05:32 PM »
Nobody bought it without radar.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #254 on: July 13, 2019, 04:27:55 AM »
Nobody bought it without radar.


Was anyone offered?

Maybe a simplified radar arrangement akin to the Mirage 5/50:



Or even the F-100:



Basically, creat a WVR dogfighter F-16 without BVR or similar.
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #255 on: July 13, 2019, 09:29:04 PM »
I think F-16 started in an era when you needed to have something that lets you see BVR.

If you look into the history of the F-16 and especially the lightweight Advanced Day Fighter (ADF) and Light Weight Fighter (LWF) programs that led to it, you will see that they were looking for something focussed originally on daytime dogfighting, with only minimal avionics being provided.  For instance, the YF-16 was closer to this when you compare to later production variants:

I think the LWF RfP originally only called for a ranging radar, a 20mm M61 and two Aim-9's 😯

MAD
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 06:29:46 AM by M.A.D »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #256 on: August 09, 2019, 07:59:28 AM »
Crossing F-104 and F-16


Offline finsrin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #257 on: August 09, 2019, 02:10:43 PM »
Surprising how well tail change combos work.  Great pics !

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #258 on: March 03, 2020, 12:05:30 AM »


 :-* :-* :-*
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #259 on: March 03, 2020, 03:14:35 AM »
I wouldn't say the noise level was comparable.  Where I live I get to hear F-16s, F/A-18s, and F-35s and the F-35's engine is definitely the loudest by far; though the comparability might be in burner, all trigger car alarms when taking off with afterburners going.

Offline sanka

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #260 on: March 03, 2020, 03:52:10 AM »
I wouldn't say the noise level was comparable.  Where I live I get to hear F-16s, F/A-18s, and F-35s and the F-35's engine is definitely the loudest by far; though the comparability might be in burner, all trigger car alarms when taking off with afterburners going.


The F-35 at least doubles the racket of the F-16. American Air bases done some measerments..

The Nellis EIS, reported the F-35 at minimum (cruising) power at 1,000 feet was 103 db, and the F16 at 89 db (a 14 db difference).
The Burlington Vermont EIS, reports that the F-35 produces 115 db at ground level, on take-off, while the F-16 produces 94 db (a 21 db difference).

http://www.citizensforalivableboise.org/news/-5-f-35-noise-studies-show-the-f-35-is-much-louder-than-the-f-16-and-a-10

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #261 on: March 03, 2020, 04:09:08 AM »
I wouldn't say the noise level was comparable.  Where I live I get to hear F-16s, F/A-18s, and F-35s and the F-35's engine is definitely the loudest by far; though the comparability might be in burner, all trigger car alarms when taking off with afterburners going.


The F-35 at least doubles the racket of the F-16. American Air bases done some measerments..

The Nellis EIS, reported the F-35 at minimum (cruising) power at 1,000 feet was 103 db, and the F16 at 89 db (a 14 db difference).
The Burlington Vermont EIS, reports that the F-35 produces 115 db at ground level, on take-off, while the F-16 produces 94 db (a 21 db difference).

http://www.citizensforalivableboise.org/news/-5-f-35-noise-studies-show-the-f-35-is-much-louder-than-the-f-16-and-a-10


Well the engine is 1 1/2 times more powerful, why would it be quieter ?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #262 on: March 03, 2020, 06:49:55 AM »


 :-* :-* :-*

4th Gen looks like a twin-engined, twin-tailed Viper with canards - cool!  8)
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #263 on: March 04, 2020, 12:15:44 AM »

4th Gen looks like a twin-engined, twin-tailed Viper with canards - cool!  8)

Exactly  :-*
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #264 on: March 04, 2020, 02:57:05 AM »
I see F-16 merged with Typhoon and F/A-18
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Offline sanka

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #265 on: March 04, 2020, 04:03:39 AM »
Well the engine is 1 1/2 times more powerful, why would it be quieter ?

About 20 jears of development past the F-100, and they can't make the bloody thing (F-135) a bit less noisy???

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #266 on: March 04, 2020, 06:02:01 AM »
Well the engine is 1 1/2 times more powerful, why would it be quieter ?


About 20 jears of development past the F-100, and they can't make the bloody thing (F-135) a bit less noisy???


Rather than renew F-35 vs the world Round 58,762, I really posted that because it was a neato F-16 variant I thought people would be interested in and put it in the F-16 thread for that reason. We have a place for F-35 complaining:

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=349.0

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #267 on: March 04, 2020, 06:31:49 AM »
Well the engine is 1 1/2 times more powerful, why would it be quieter ?

About 20 jears of development past the F-100, and they can't make the bloody thing (F-135) a bit less noisy???

And how are you going to do that ?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #268 on: March 05, 2020, 02:10:58 AM »
F100-PW-200   F135-PW-100
Length: 191 inches (490 cm)
Diameter: 46.5 inches (118 cm)
Dry weight: 3,234 pounds (1,467 kg)
Max thrust: 23,930 lbf (106.4 kN
   Length: 220 in (559 cm)
Diameter: 46 in (117 cm)
Dry weight: 3,750 lb (1,701 kg)
Max Thrust:  43,000 lbf (191 kN)
      <--- ~14% increase
   <--- ~1% decrease
   <--- ~16% increase
   <--- ~79.5% increase!!!

If it wasn't for a massive amount of work over the last 20 odd years the engine should be even louder when you consider the power increase compared to other elements.


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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #269 on: March 06, 2020, 01:43:36 AM »
Well the engine is 1 1/2 times more powerful, why would it be quieter ?

About 20 jears of development past the F-100, and they can't make the bloody thing (F-135) a bit less noisy???
You can absolutely make jet engines quieter today than 20 years ago.

It just takes mass and volume away from payload for sound suppression systems. That's OK, right?

On the assumption that this is not OK for a combat aircraft, the issue is that, fundamentally, low bypass turbofans generate more noise per Newton of thrust than quieter high bypass turbofans and less noise than pure turbojets.

Some of the efficiency losses in all gas turbines is lost in noise. Pure turbojets are aerodynamically inefficient and are faaaar noiser than any turbofan, while low bypass turbofans are more noisy than high bypass turbofans (a byproduct of the higher fuel efficiency of the high bypass fans). You need a low bypass fan because the frontal area and fan tip speed of the high bypass fans limit maximum speed. So, for supersonic aircraft with moderate efficiency you are stuck with a low bypass fan, in which case you are stuck with a certain level of noise.

The new GE variable cycle engine that increases fan ratio at lower speeds will probably be quieter for a given low speed thrust as it is more efficient and loses less energy to noise at the slightly higher bypass ratio. Won't be a lot, but it should be quieter.

Of course, that's on straight military or dry power. As soon as you kick in the afterburners, the efficiency goes into the toilet and a huge amount of energy gets wasted as noise, so don't expect a reduction in take-off noise even on the variable cycle engines.

Here endeth the lesson.  :smiley:

Paul

Offline perttime

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #271 on: April 10, 2020, 03:17:21 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #272 on: April 10, 2020, 03:58:49 AM »

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #273 on: April 10, 2020, 04:17:43 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-16 Inspirations & Ideas
« Reply #274 on: April 11, 2020, 03:36:53 AM »

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.