Author Topic: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 52047 times)

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 12:39:39 PM »
Single seater (maybe even the original F-4F)

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 03:17:12 PM »
The single-seater I'm planning to do is a simpler mod to a "stock" F-4E using the original low F4H-1 canopy and following F-15 convention of making the backseat area an avionics bay.  I'm just questioning if I should add other "enhancements" such as improved engines and possibly a new wing aerodynamically similar to the F-15's wing.

Offline Weaver

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 12:28:43 AM »
Fouga version with a V-tail?

My favorite What If question about the F4 is "what if it never happened?". It was so influential that concocting alternative procurements leads you into all sorts of interesting ideas....
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 01:26:34 AM »
"It never happened" leads to a couple of interesting ideas, a production F8U-3 and/or an enlarged F5D variant with a J75 and variable inlets (I'm partial to Fieri inlets like the F-105's myself).  Choice of seats (tandem for a two-seater most likely) would be up to the modeler and backstory.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 01:36:08 AM »
The single-seater I'm planning to do is a simpler mod to a "stock" F-4E using the original low F4H-1 canopy and following F-15 convention of making the backseat area an avionics bay.  I'm just questioning if I should add other "enhancements" such as improved engines and possibly a new wing aerodynamically similar to the F-15's wing.

No idea how to improve on the canopy but the suggestion of adapting the F-15 wing to the Phantom is appealing.  It should be easy enough to accomplish.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2012, 06:36:26 AM »
No idea how to improve on the canopy but the suggestion of adapting the F-15 wing to the Phantom is appealing.  It should be easy enough to accomplish.
Very easy in that the root chords are nigh unto identical (I've done the test fit with a spare set of F-15 wings).  For the canopy, I was going to use the appropriate bits from Falcon's F4H-1 conversion.  Thinking of doing it to a Testors/Italieri F-4E/F/G kit and using the leftover G parts, particularly the sensor, in doing a WW Eagle from a two-seat F-15.

Offline Weaver

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2012, 06:48:52 PM »
"It never happened" leads to a couple of interesting ideas, a production F8U-3 and/or an enlarged F5D variant with a J75 and variable inlets (I'm partial to Fieri inlets like the F-105's myself).  Choice of seats (tandem for a two-seater most likely) would be up to the modeler and backstory.

And that's just for the Navy. What might the airforce had done for Vietnam once they realised they needed a dogfighter and they were losing Thuds hand-over-fist?

1. Productionised F-107 with the intake back in the ventral position?

2. F-106 "gunfighter" (Vulcan plus fuel in the bay, twin sidewinders on new outer-wing pylons) deployed to 'Nam and the production run extended?

3. Fighter F-105 with a bigger wing, fuel in the bay and more missiles? (for all their size, Thud's did surprisingly well in air-to-air combat: most of the losses were down to ground fire, and many might have been avoided by better detail design)

4. USAF procurement of the F-8 Crusader, possibly with a J-79 and a Vulcan?

5. USAF emergency procurement of a foreign type? A J-79-engined Mirage would seem tasty, and might, of course, give other people ideas......
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2012, 06:54:32 PM »

4. USAF procurement of the F-8 Crusader, possibly with a J-79 and a Vulcan?

Mmmm.... :-*

Maybe also USAF A-6 Intruders in the strike role?
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Offline dy031101

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2012, 09:30:15 PM »


A heavier version with three engines?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2012, 11:15:45 PM »
5. USAF emergency procurement of a foreign type? A J-79-engined Mirage would seem tasty, and might, of course, give other people ideas......
Well, considering that Boeing-Wichita had the US license for the Mirage III (if built, it would have been the Mirage IIIW) for entry in the FMS competition won by the F-5, procurement of first the Mirage III and later a J79-powered version would definitely be possible.

Mind you, I think the USAF adapting the F-8 much as they did the A-7 (armament and engine changes as well as a switch in inflight refueling methods) would be more likely given the attitude set of the SecDef of the time.  I suspect the same thing might have happened in the strike role with the A-6 picking up the slack (hmm, 'twould take enlarged engine nacelles, but a TF30-powered A-6?  Using the turbofan version of the J52 would be just a bit too much).

Of course, I could also see P&W pushing to replace the J75s in the F-105 and F-106 with afterburning JT8Ds, similar to the Viggen's RM8.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2012, 11:23:38 PM »
A heavier version with three engines?
Only if you're enlarging the existing intakes to handle the needed increased airflow or are adding another intake or set of intakes (see, for example, the proposed 3-engined Vigilante).

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 02:22:13 AM »

A heavier version with three engines?

Interesting concept!
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Offline Weaver

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 02:59:46 AM »

4. USAF procurement of the F-8 Crusader, possibly with a J-79 and a Vulcan?

Mmmm.... :-*

Maybe also USAF A-6 Intruders in the strike role?


Distinct possibility...

However, another "no Phantom" scenario I've considered is "it's a Phantom Jim but not as we know it". In this version, the A-6 gets bogged down in unsolvable avionics difficulties and is cancelled before it enters service. This causes a huge scandal, ends the careers of those officers pushing for a sophisticated attack plane, and causes a change of USN policy towards a more general-purpose big, fast striker like the F-105. The Thud itself would never be carrier compatible, but MacDonnell just happened to be trying to find a niche for it's new big "fighter" by calling it the AH-1 at the time, so the Phantom WAS adopted, but in the form of a sort of "Super-Skyhawk", with a small radar, single seat, 4 x 20mm, flat 6-pylon wing, flat tailplanes and no missile bays.

The AH-1 Phantom effectively displaced the Skyhawks onto the smaller Essex class carriers, and meant that the A-7 Corsair never happened either. Big carriers now operated updated A-5 Vigilantes (in an expanded conventional role) for long-range attack/recce/tanker functions, AH-1s for heavy attack and F-8U-3 Super-Crusaders as fighters. Essexs operated orignal F-8s and Skyhawks.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 04:02:39 AM »
I like that one, Weaver, though I think aerodynamics might push the bent wings and anhedral tailplanes anyway.  Still, that would be a rather different looking McD product.  As an alternative, the demise of the Intruder sees the USN buying the Blackburn Buccaneer and McDonnell getting the US rights to build it.

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Re: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 05:54:11 PM »
Dedicated ground attack F-4 proposals:


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