Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 403761 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2525 on: May 14, 2020, 05:53:38 AM »
Stephen, the Hercules installed on Bristol Freighters were 2000hp each, about on par with early Sabres

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2526 on: May 15, 2020, 01:44:30 AM »
Yes, I'd based mine on the Vickers Valetta with similar output. Certainly enough to do the job.

My Ecuadorian Typhoon would be strictly a ground-pounder so I reckoned that the Hercules was more than enough. Besides, the best Peruvian fighter of 1945 was the Curtiss P-36G  ;)
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2527 on: May 22, 2020, 10:37:29 AM »
A pair of proposed RW Supermarine Type 224 evolution schemes ...

Bottom A Supermarine study for a straight-wing Type 224 (based upon 1/16 scale wind tunnel test results).

Over on Secret Projects, Ralph Pegram (Schneiderman) explained that Supermarine knew that its Type 224 was flawed even before it flew. Improvement schemes studied included one option to modify the prototype as quickly and cheaply as possible while introducing a straight wing. The original, cranked centre-section (NACA 0018) was eliminated and a new, constant 4° dihedral wing (RAF 34 section). The fuselage was deepened to make up for removal of the inverted-gull centre-section.

A 1/16 scale wind-tunnel models was rebuilt to test the revised features. How successful those tests were is unknown. Early in 1934, the most promising improvement candidates were submitted to the Air Ministry. This deep-fuselaged, straight-winged concept may not have made the cut. Like the built Type 224, this aircraft was to be Rolls-Royce Goshawk-powered. Exhaust and evaporative-cooling 'plumbing' seem to be simplified but the drawing lacks detailed information.

Available drawings for this improved Type 224 are a bit sketchy. The drawing shows less shapely undercarriage trousers but I'm unsure of how much of the 'change' has to do with drawing style versus intentional design. I've replicated the drawing's straighter rear line of those trousers but found the forward line less convincing (for starters, there's insufficient space for wheel travel). The rear skid has also been made much simple (again, based upon the drawing). That drawing doesn't show a wireless mast so the aerial has been omitted.

Top A Supermarine straight-wing Type 224 study on its way towards the later Type 300

A more refined Type 224 revision, this aircraft has a fuselage more like the built prototype (and, presumeably, still of roughly square section). The main undercarriage is now retractable (and hints at influence from the then-contemporary Heinkel He 70). Available drawings vary on the tailwheel. In one drawing, the tailwheel is fixed and fitted with a spat (as shown). In other drawing, the tailwheel is fully retractable.

The new wing has a swept-back leading edge (and main spar) with a nearly straight trailing edge. This is a four-gunned fighter with synchronized (Vickers?) machine guns on the lower forward fuselage sides. The twin wing guns are mounted just inboard of the retracted main wheel wells. One drawing shows wing racks for small bombs mounted just outboard of those wheel wells. The powerplant is still a steam-cooled Goshawk but now fitted with the ill-fated 'Ramshorn' exhaust shrouds. This aircraft is well down the road to the earliest incarnations of the Type 300.
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2528 on: May 23, 2020, 06:55:24 AM »
Kind of an obvious Type 224 whif. I'm not sure that BdB would have approved of the spatsectomy ... but that float gear could be though of as the world's largest trousered undercarriage  ;)

__________________________

Rejected as a land-fighter, the Type 224 prototype K2890 was modified as Supermarine's submission to meet Air Ministry Specification F.8/34 for an RAF float fighter. The modified prototype was put through its paces over the Solent  by Capt. 'Mutt' Summers in early August 1935. However, by then, the specified Rolls-Royce Goshawk engine had lost is shine with the Air Ministry and the RAF had developed doubts about the need for fighters on pontoons.
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"

Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2529 on: May 23, 2020, 08:16:13 PM »
beautiful floatplanization : nearly as beautiful as spats  ;)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2530 on: May 23, 2020, 09:49:39 PM »
Kind of an obvious Type 224 whif. I'm not sure that BdB would have approved of the spatsectomy ... but that float gear could be though of as the world's largest trousered undercarriage  ;)

__________________________

Rejected as a land-fighter, the Type 224 prototype K2890 was modified as Supermarine's submission to meet Air Ministry Specification F.8/34 for an RAF float fighter. The modified prototype was put through its paces over the Solent  by Capt. 'Mutt' Summers in early August 1935. However, by then, the specified Rolls-Royce Goshawk engine had lost is shine with the Air Ministry and the RAF had developed doubts about the need for fighters on pontoons.

I like that Stephen, but I'm thinking the struts would have been more like this.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2531 on: May 24, 2020, 06:18:42 AM »
beautiful floatplanization : nearly as beautiful as spats  ;)

Cheers Eric! I was going for the enormous galoshes look  ;D

Robert: Thanks for the 'Narvik Nightmare' image  :smiley:  My original thought was that, while Mitchell worked on other projects, this conversion work had been passed on to Arthur Shirvall. So, as floats were Arthur's forte, he stick with something more Schneideresque  :D
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2532 on: May 24, 2020, 01:09:24 PM »
As Ralph Pegram's Beyond the Spitfire makes clear the racers and Spitfire were
atypical of Mitchell's design work. The float trousers wouldn't be outré coming from
his pencil.
 ;D

Thematically they fit the 1930s Brit design "look", along with other nations like say,
France.
 ;D

HD.780 seaplane fighter:
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 11:59:09 PM by jcf »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2533 on: May 24, 2020, 07:40:08 PM »
As Ralph Pegram's Beyond the Spitfire makes clear the racers and Spitfire were
atypical of Mitchell's design work. The float trousers wouldn't be outré coming from
his pencil.
 ;D

Thematically they fit the 1930s Brit design "look", along with other nations like say,
France.
 ;D

HD.780 seaplane fighter:




Fantastic timing!

I logged onto World of Warships for some weekend relaxation and discovered I had been granted three days access to Dunkerque and that it had a nifty little seaplane on its cat, I made a mental note to checkout what it was and promptly forgot.  Start reading here and what do I find.... thanks again.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2534 on: May 24, 2020, 09:16:18 PM »

Robert: Thanks for the 'Narvik Nightmare' image  :smiley:  My original thought was that, while Mitchell worked on other projects, this conversion work had been passed on to Arthur Shirvall. So, as floats were Arthur's forte, he stick with something more Schneideresque  :D

Well I like your idea better, gives me an excuse to buy a Supermarine Type 224 (if I can find one)  ;)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2535 on: May 25, 2020, 02:25:18 AM »
Thanks folks!

Jon: Schneiderman's Beyond the Spitfire is definitely on my 'want it' list :)

I love the Dewoitine HD.780  :-*   Some time back, Alex did a bunch of whif schemes for the HD.780 (including inverted gull land fighters).
 -- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=197.msg1819#msg1819
 -- http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=197.msg3246#msg3246

From some angles, the Dewoitine HD.411 racer also had a vaguely Supermarine-ish shape.
 -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewoitine_HD.412#/media/File:Dewoitine_HD.412.jpg
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2536 on: May 25, 2020, 03:22:50 AM »
I have one of these in the stash too:

« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 03:24:24 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2537 on: May 25, 2020, 05:15:42 PM »
I have one of these in the stash too:



That will look great with your 1/48 resin Dunkerque!

(to be followed with in three weeks by a styrene mainstream version)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2538 on: May 30, 2020, 10:15:24 AM »
In model kit news ... we present the new boxing of the Airfix Boulton Paul P.82 Defiance Mk.IIA in 1:72nd scale.

The new Airfix box art features a dramatic painting by Adam Tooby depicting the Defiance in action towards the end of the Battle of Britain. Less well known than its stablemates - the Supermarine Spitfire and Hawker Hurricane - the Defiance nonetheless represented a crucial 'third arrow in the quiver'.

The Defiance began as Boulton Paul's answer to a requirement for a two-seat turret fighter. This scheme was quickly dropped and the design rejigged as a conventional, single-seat fighter. The Defiance was not quite as fast as the Spitfire nor as manoeuvrable as the Hurricane but it had a much longer range than either. This give the Defiance more patrol endurance during 'The Battle' and ensured the Boulton Paul type's future.

After the Battle of Britain, the Defiance were assigned longer-range missions over occupied France and the Low Countries. As strafers, the Defiances became the terror of Luftwaffe bomber airfields. Later, equipped with bomb racks, the 'Daffy' (as RAF personnel dubbed it) engaged in 'tip and run' raids over German-held positions. Other Defiance marks were fitted out as fighter- and photo-reconnaissance aircraft.

The Airfix kit provides decals for two Defiance variants. One set is for PS-U, a Defiance Mk.IIA  of 264 (Madras Presidency) Squadron RAF during the Battle of Britain. The second set is for an early-model Defiance PR.Mk.IV of 212 Squadron, a detachment from the Photographic Development Unit operating from RAF Fowlmere in early 1941.

______________________________________

With apologies to Adam Tooby ;)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2539 on: May 30, 2020, 10:36:58 AM »
Excellent alt-history and beautiful box art. 
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2540 on: May 30, 2020, 10:40:00 AM »
Cheers Jeff.  Adam Tooby does really nice stuff ... but it just had to be fiddled with  >:D
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2541 on: May 30, 2020, 10:12:47 PM »
Type 224 with floats is so horny - nice one ;)
I could be tempted to build that.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2542 on: May 31, 2020, 03:20:30 AM »
 :smiley:

Now where's the 1/48 version?! ;)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 02:01:34 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2543 on: May 31, 2020, 10:30:22 AM »
Greg: I wasn't going to show the 1/48 box art. But now I suppose I have to.

Personally, I think Airfix should have depicted the early Battle of Britain Defiance Mk.I conversion - or even the rare, cannon-armed Mk.IC. To my eye, the oblique-firing Defiance Mk.IA was just an odd-ball variant ...
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2544 on: June 01, 2020, 01:57:58 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2545 on: June 01, 2020, 05:37:36 PM »
Me? I'd like to see the Defiance IIB, bubble-top, rocket/bomb & cannon armed, close support version (mostly) used in the SE Asia Theatre. ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2546 on: June 02, 2020, 12:44:06 AM »
More random Defiants to come. Hadn't thought of SEA. Hmmm.  Meanwhile ...

______________________________________

In the Fall of 1938, the RAF concluded that a two-seat turret fighter would not survive under operational conditions. In the case of the chosen Boulton Paul P.82 Defiant, the power-operated turret and its gunner made up at least 10% of total loaded weight. The P.82 was an excellent airframe but the turret fighter concept had been flawed. Completed Defiant fighters were being delivered to MTUs while their fate was being decided. Then-current leanings were to transform the turret fighters into attack aircraft. [1] Design staff at Boulton Paul Aircraft Ltd. made another, alternative proposal.

The RAF's planned advanced trainer - the de Havilland Don had proved a major disappointment. The BP proposal was that Defiants be completed as two-seat fighter-trainers. Anticipating that the Ministry of Aircraft Production would be unwilling to allot frontline Merlin engines, BP suggested that trainer airframes be powered by Rolls-Royce Kestrel V-12s (the RAF having stocks of these older, less-powerful engines in storage). This scheme was accepted by the RAF and MAP and the first production turret fighter - L6950 - was returned to the manufacturer for conversion into a dual-control trainer.

The Boulton Paul Pembroke Trainer

Initially known as the 'Defiant Trainer', the conversion was not a straightforward one. The turret and belly radiator bath were stripped from L6950. Along with a new cowling, an under-nose 'chin' radiator (closely based upon those tested on the Miles Kestrel prototype) had to be fashioned and plumbed. The purpose of the new radiator installation was to re-establish the centre of gravity. The removal of turret lightened the airframe considerably, however the dry weight of a Kestrel XVI was 400 lbs less than the original Merlin powerplant. The rear cockpit control arrangement was less of a challenge since dual controls had been planned for the Defiant from the outset. With the turret removed, the rear cockpit proved rather spacious (although the instructor's field of view was somewhat restricted).

Of the first Defiant contract (No.622849/37), all but 25 of the airframes were revised as 'Defiant Trainers'- assigned the name and designation Pembroke Mk.I before entering service with the RAF's Fighter Training Schools. (The name being chosen because both Oxford and Cambridge have Pembroke Colleges.) The Pembroke Mk.IA introduced the Kestrel XXX engine and extra canopy frames for reinforcement. The final production model (to revised Contract No.34864/39 issued in Dec. 1939) [2] was for Pembroke T.Mk.IIs which could be distinguished by their Spitfire-like pilot's canopy. With the last Pembroke T.Mk.II (T4121) production ended at Wolverhampton - the RAF having finally exhausted its stocks of stored Kestrel engines.

____________________________

[1] Twenty-four Defiant turret fighters were completed as (or converted into) 'Defiant Attack' light bombers. These aircraft were fitted with wing racks for 2 x 250 lb GP bombs. Two .303 inch Browning machine guns were installed in each outboard wing panel. A single .303 inch Vickers 'K' gun armed the Bristol B.I turret which replaced the Boulton Paul Type 'A' original.

[2] A second contract (No.757867/39) for Defiant turret fighters had been placed in January 1938. This contract had been cancelled outright by December of that year.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2547 on: June 02, 2020, 02:49:23 AM »
Maybe also a post war target towing one in this sort of scheme:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2548 on: June 02, 2020, 08:55:35 AM »
Maybe also a post war target towing one in this sort of scheme:

I like it! But meanwhile ...
____________________________

A Return to Daylight Bombing

On the night of 15-16 November 1940, RAF Wellington bombers pounded Hamburg again. The raid was aimed at Hamburg docks, the Blohm und Voss shipyards, railway centres, power stations, and general industrial targets. The final wave hit dockside again just before first light at 5:30 am. As always, the results were uncertain. Hamburg was shrouded with smoke but how much of that was the result of bomb damage and how much came from decoy fires was unclear. Either way, it had been a long night for Hamburg. The Flak Hilfern and Feuerschutzpolizei were more than ready for a rest when the 'all clear' was signaled at 6:00 am. Their relief was premature.

Just before 8:00 am, more British bombers appeared over Hamburg in broad daylight. This time, the bombers were the Handley Page Hampdens. Having left Lincolnshire at dawn, the aircraft of No.83 Squadron (from RAF Scampton) and No.44 'Rhodesia' Squadron (RAF Waddington) formed up out over the North Sea just before 6:00 am.

Their targets were three oil refineries around Hamburg with an emphasis upon the Deutsche Gasolin AG facility and the nearby Ruhrchemie hydrogenation plant. IG Farben's Deutsche Gasolin was producing synthetic petroleum from coal mineral oil as military fuel. [1] The first bombs fell at 8:05 amid fairly intense flak. The first Bf 110Cs interceptors of II./ZG 76 appeared as the second wave of RAF bombers began their run-in. From the German pilots' perspective, the lumbering Hampdens appeared to be leichte Beute or 'easy prey'!

Hals- und Beinbruch!

The Zerstörer crews were in for a nasty shock. Many of the Hampdens had sprouted a new nose defence in the form of a flexibly-mounted Vickers 'K' gun. As the leader of the first Kette found to his cost, approaching Hampdens from the front had just become a bit more dangerous. The second 'bounce' came from above. That only made matters worse. Positioned amongst the Hampden Mk.Is were newly-built Hampden Mk.IIIs. [2] These Mk.IIIs had an added 'sting'. In place of the Hampdens' usual dorsal 'K' gun position, the Mk.IIIs mounted Boulton Paul Type A turrets. [3] Capable of 360° traverse, each BP Type A turret mounted four .303-inch Browning machine guns. And for Hampden Mk.III gunners, these twin-engined Messerschmitt fighters presented fat targets.

(To be continued ...)

____________________________

[1] It was on the recommendation of Standard Oil of California (via the American Kellogg Co., makers of refinery equipment) that IG Farben brought Deutsche Gasolin AG into an arrangement with Ruhrchemie (hydrogenation being a key part of synthetic fuel production).

[2] The Hampden Mk.IIs were a pair of prototypes with alternative, American-made engines.

[3] The Hampden Mk.III was that bit heavier and 'draggier' than the Mk.I (or nose-gunned Mk.IA). To compensate, the Mk.IIIs carried a reduced bombload - 3,000 lbs versus the 4,000 lb full load of the Hampden Mk.Is.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2549 on: June 03, 2020, 03:16:21 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.