Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 472092 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2650 on: September 30, 2020, 03:01:06 AM »
I wonder...were the RAAF Lances sold to anyone... ;)
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2651 on: September 30, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
Apophenia's posts tend to do much stash searching/ebaying!

True dat!  :smiley:
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2652 on: October 01, 2020, 04:58:32 AM »
Thanks folks!

I wonder...were the RAAF Lances sold to anyone... ;)

I wasn't planning to do more ... but they would look good with Kiwi roundels and slung with anti-shipping missiles  :D
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2653 on: October 03, 2020, 11:19:08 AM »
I said that I wouldn't, but I have ...  ;)

________________________________________


Project Karearea - Swedish Lance into a New Zealand Falcon

In 1974, the Government of New Zealand availed itself of the opportunity of purchasing retired RAAF aircraft at steeply discounted prices. The gem in this deal were twenty Saab (GAF) AF-32 Lance 2-seat fighters. These Swedish-built aircraft had been retired from RAAF service in 1969 and had been languishing in open storages at the Woomera Prohibited Area. The Lance was a rather large fighter but their purchase helped make up for the cancellation of a A-4K/TA-4K Skyhawk buy back in 1970.

After some refurbishment by the Government Aircraft Factory (a component of the purchase deal), the first Lances were ferried to RNZAF Base Ohakea where they were taken on strength by No 2 Squadron RNZAF - that unit later providing Lance pilot conversion for No 75 Squadron and the recently-reformed No. 26 Squadron. The latter unit was stood up again specifically for the maritime strike role. The F-32 Lance - as it was referred to by the Kiwis - certainly had the range for this role but its load-out of 30 mm cannons and unguided rockets was consider less than ideal. [1] However, armament and sensor improvements would have to wait for the time being.

Between 1976 and 1978, a series of incremental improvements and updated were made to the Kiwi F-32 fleet. That these 20-year-old aircraft were becoming outdated was obvious but the sturdy airframes had life in them yet. The most important upgrade was the replacement of the original Saab Mk 1 rocket-boosted ejection seats with new Martin-Baker PB Mk 4B 'bang seats' (as used in the RNZAF's Strikemasters). The aging CAC-built Rolls-Royce Avon engines were also replaced over time - by later-model Svenska Flygmotor RM6s (the Swedish-built variant of the Avon). Investigations were also made into modernizing avionics and sensors, but action on these items would have to wait for a more comprehensive Lance upgrade programme.

Project Karearea - Swedish Lance into a New Zealand Falcon

In 1983, the RNZAF initiated Project Karearea [2] to improve the capabilities of its ex-RAAF Saab Lance fleet. It was originally planned that the original Swedish PS-432/A radar would be replaced by the Ferranti Airpass II Blue Parrot (as on the Blackburn Buccaneer) and a trial installation was made prior to the launch of Project Karearea. Testing of the so-called F-32X 'test mule' suggested that the RNZAF should find a more modern search radar (as well as a better anti-shipping missile than the Hawker Siddeley/Matra AS 37 Marte). Fortunately, Saab had already tested the PS-37/A radar (intended for the new JA37 Viggen) on a J32 Lansen airframe. This set was chosen for the Project Karearea radar upgrade. [3]

Bottom The sole F-32X trials mule seen in later days. In No 14 Sqn service, NZ6203 was dubbed 'Te Muera' ('The Mule'). Here, the F-32X retains its unique Buccaneer radome - although, in 1989, it actually housed a General Instrument ALR-66 radar set on lone for trials.

Note that NZ6203 has also been used to trial the single-seat cockpit mod intended for the unrealized F-32NG upgrade. The rear cockpit space was largely filled with a new fuel tanks (allowing '03 to dispense with the usual Lance belly fairing). The 'hi-viz' markings sported by NZ6203 were unique on Lance wearing the overall green scheme introduced during Project Karearea.

The new LM Ericsson PS-37/A monopulse X-band radar introduced by Project Karearea was optimized for maritime tracking. The new radar's big, 70 cm diameter antenna greatly expanded the options for new anti-shipping armament.  of twin, wing-mounted Hawker Siddeley/Matra AS 37 Martel missiles. [3]


Saab proposed integrating the Rb 75, Sweden's version of the AGM-65A Maverick TV-guided missile. However, the David Lange-led Labour government which took power in 1984 was in no mood to buy US-made armaments. This proved to be of little concern to the RNZAF which had taken a shine to the new BAe Sea Eagle - a  sea-skimming, radar-guided missile. That missile was chosen and entered RNZAF service in June 1986. A key perceived advantage of the Sea Eagle was that, once the British missile was launched, it became completely autonomous. The anti-shipping Lances could safely launch their missiles from more than 100 km out and the active radar Sea Eagles would find their own way to the target.

Top A Sea Eagle-armed F-32M Lance of No 75 (Maritime Strike) Squadron, flying out of RNZAF Base Ohakea in late 1986. Note, like all F-32Ms, NZ6209 has four gun ports. In fact, only two 30 mm ADEN cannons were fitted to the F-32M as a weight-savings measure.

Two of the RNZAF's operational squadrons traded primary missions during the Project Karearea upgrades. A former fighter squadron, No 75 received F-32Ms and Sea Eagle missiles. In turn, No 26 became a fighter squadron flying Sidewinder-armed F-32Bs in the interceptor role. [4] No 14 Squadron became the Air Combat Force OTU - flying both the dual-control TF-32 Lance and Jet Provost from RNZAF Base Woodbourne. No 2 Squadron remained at RNZAF base Ohakea but gave up its Lance for BAC Strikemasters. These updated Lances remained in service until 2001 when the Labour Government of Helen Clark eliminated the Air Combat Force from the RNZAF's structure. Although than two preserved examples - one F-32B and one F-32M - the retired Lances were all scrapped at the maintenance facility at Woodbourne.

__________________________________

[1] In early RNZAF service, the Lances usually carried four of six-round, 135 mm Bofors M70 rocket pods.

[2] Karearea is the Maori name for the New Zealand Falcon (Falco novaeseelandiae).

[3] A Ferranti/Elliot dual-band Q/X-band radar had also been examined. However, this set was eliminated from the Project Karearea due to this radar's experimental nature (and unnecessary emphasis on ground-following).

[4] Unlike other upgraded RNZAF Lance variants, the F-32B retained its four-gun fixed armament.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2654 on: October 04, 2020, 02:05:41 AM »
Outstanding! :smiley:
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2655 on: October 25, 2020, 07:59:38 AM »
Kim: My guess on the Type 333's reversed gull was Supermarine obsessing on the mountains of data gleaned from wind tunnel tests on R-R's He 70. The question is: were the added manufacturing headaches worth the aerodynamic benefits?

And now on to another unbuilt project ...

'Swords' into Claymores - the Canadair CL-76

For some time, I've been curious about what the Canadair CL-76 project would have looked like if built.

Canadair had hoped to produce a number of evolved CL-13 Sabre designs. Among these unbuilt projects were the CL-13G 2-seat trainer (akin to North American's TF-86F) and the CL-13J with a simplified Bristol afterburner (as compared with the afterburner originally planned for the CL-13C). Later, with the writing on the wall for further 'Sword' production, Canadair made more radical plans.

The 1958 CL-76 project was intended to produce a 2-seat NATO attack aircraft using the maximum number of F-86 and CL-13 components. There were three variants of the proposed CL-76. The first two kept fairly close to the F-86/CL-13 pattern other than being powered by twin engines, pod-mounted on the rear fuselage.

The baseline CL-76 was to be powered by compact Pratt & Whitney Canada JT12 (US military designation J60) fitted with afterburners. The CL-76A proposal was essentially similar to the CL-76 other than being powered by slightly larger Bristol Siddeley Orpheus BOr.12SR turbojets. These engines (TJ37s in the US designation system) would produce 6,810 lbf dry, with 8,170 lbf reheat.

There was also a CL-76B proposal but it involved much more radical airframe changes - 'internal' engines, high-mounted wings, etc. Obviously, the CL-76B was no longer an exercise in recycling exiting F-86/CL-13 components. Rather, those components were to be modified out of all recognition. However, none of these Canadair proposals was taken up by Canada or any other NATO member.

Here, I've shown what I imagine service CL-76 Claymores would have looked like. She's no looker but, to me at least, it was still an interesting design exercise by Canadair.

(Top) A former RCAF Claymore Mk.1A (2 x J60s) in Yugoslav markings. To prolong airframe life, the Yugoslavs removed their Claymores outer weapon pylons.

The Claymore Mk.1s had no fixed gun armament. This aircraft sports a false radome like all RCAF Claymores (the targetting radar was omitted from Canadian airframes as an economy measure).

(Bottom) A Claymore Mk.3 (2 x TJ37s) near the end of its RAF service. This aircraft lacks both inboard and outboard weapon pylons since it is being employed on Claymore pilot refresher courses.

Oh wow....a belated wow 😯
Beautiful profiles Apophenia!!

I've really just been enlightened by the CL-76 program......
The "CL-76B program" you allude to, was that a real-world program? If so could please direct me to the info you might have on the CL-76B program? Also are you planning a profile of this CL-76B???


MAD

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2656 on: October 25, 2020, 12:09:19 PM »
@Apophenia - I do like where you are going with this Lansen idea.  One of my many slow cooking projects is to try and turn the Lansen in to an ersatz F-86C/YF-93.  Yes, a bit far fetched but it does kind of/sort of resemble an F-86 Sabre if you stretch your imagination.     
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2657 on: October 27, 2020, 02:08:26 AM »
M.A.D: The CL-76B was, indeed, a real Canadair project. The details given all came from Bill Upton's Canada Aviation and Space Museum fact file on the CL-13B Sabre (link below). The CASM pdf is not searchable but, if you scroll down to page 10 of 26 of the pdf, you'll find what Upton as to say on the CL-76 (with an implied connection to the CL-53 bizjet-style crew readiness trainer).

 -- http://documents.techno-science.ca/documents/CASM-Aircrafthistories-CanadairCL-13BSabre.pdf

I can't seem to extract anything from that CASM pdf but somehow Stéphane did for Secret Projects. See: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/canadair-cl-13-sabre-jet-fighter-and-proposed-derivatives.30485/#post-331798

And I've just realized that Piotr reposted my CL-76 sideviews on that Secret Projects thread. I should probably rely and fess up to how much what-if guessification was involved  :o

IIRC, Ron Pickler (Canadair: The First 50 Years) describes only the base CL-76 (2 x JT12s). Ken Molson (Canadian Aircraft since 1909) does too, mentioning no other variants or sub-type designations.

@Apophenia - I do like where you are going with this Lansen idea.  One of my many slow cooking projects is to try and turn the Lansen in to an ersatz F-86C/YF-93.  Yes, a bit far fetched but it does kind of/sort of resemble an F-86 Sabre if you stretch your imagination.     


Jeff: Absolutely ... and in no way far-fetched! The Lansen wings and especially the tail surface arrangements screams Sabre. The nose has more of an F-80/T-33 vibe happening. Overall result (to my eyes) is a very cool combo  :smiley:

I love your ersatz F-86C/YF-93 idea. Are you going North American or Saab origin for this concept?
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2658 on: October 27, 2020, 11:38:02 PM »
I love your ersatz F-86C/YF-93 idea. Are you going North American or Saab origin for this concept?
Not really sure at this point who would be prime contractor on it.  IIRC the U.S. provided MDAP funding via or through NATO to have AVRO Canada produce the CF-100 for the RDAF Belgian Air Force [thanks for the clarification apophenia]. 

Maybe for an alternative it could be something similar but based on the J32 Lansen becoming the F-93?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 05:36:50 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2659 on: October 28, 2020, 04:58:57 AM »
Those MDAP-funded CF-100s were for Belgium (replacing Meteor NF.11s). Denmark also used the Meteor NF.11 as all-weather interceptors (but I'm not sure how those Meteors were funded).

The RW RDAF also received F-86D Sabres. Overall, Lansen performance outshines the single-seat 'Sabre Dog'. I'm sure that the latter turned tighter but J 32 speed, climb, and ceiling were similar to the Sabre while J 32 range and armament were much superior.

Running with this has me wondering about a US-licensed J 32. Say the USAF assigns some license-production to keep the Curtiss-Wright Aircraft Division alive after 1951. (Maybe Curtiss builds some foreign military aid Sabres, instead of funding Canadair?) Then, Curtiss-Wright gets the license to build the Saab J 32B for the USAF and NATO export. Curtiss-Wright's initial proposal - the Model 110 - was a Saab 32 powered by an in-house Wright J65 (Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire) fitted with a Curtiss-Wright devised afterburner. This was rejected for a simpler, 'least-mod' Saab 32 powered by the original Royce-Royce Avon engine.

This revised Model 110B would be eclipsed by developments. In an attempt to prop up another failing supplier, the USAF ordered a licensed Avon from the faltering Westinghouse Aviation Gas Turbine Division. Westinghouse's plan for a scaled-down Avon 300 producing 6,000 lbf - the XJ54 - was nixed. Instead, the USAF requested that Westinghouse produce its J54 as a full-powered, 'Americanized' Avon 200 fitted with the Swedish-designed afterburner from the Svenska Flygmotor RM5. [1]

The Model 110C adjusted for this revised engine type and was accepted for production as the Curtiss-Wright F-98 Blackhawk II. [2] I'm imagining the series F-98s replacing the Lockheed F-94Cs instead of F-86Ds.

Thoughts?
________________________________________

[1] The Avon 200 introduced a compressor based on that of the Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire (aka Wright J65). The RM5 was the Swedish-licenced Avon RA.3/Mk.109 for the Saab 32 Lansen.

[2] The naming alludes to another Westinghouse-powered Curtiss-Wright jet fighter - the XF-87. The Roman numeral 'II' was usually dropped in official references to the Blackhawk. BTW, the RW designation F-98 was assigned to the Hughes AAM-A-2 Falcon missile (later GAR-9, later AIM-4).
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2660 on: October 28, 2020, 05:53:36 AM »
@ apophenia - Thanks for the clarification on the CF-100, I edited my OP to reflect the correct information.  To be honest, I never followed much of the early NATO/MDAP things except for the CF-100 as it was built on our side of the pond and to have it serve in another nations air force was quite significant when most of the other NATO aircraft of that period were provided were from the U.S. or the U.K. 

Not sure if Curtiss would have been up to the task.  Even Westinghouse was building F-84 Thunderjets along side their washing machines (Evansville, Indiana).   What about Ford?  The Willow Run plan would have been idle with the end of the war.  Perhaps Ford could have stepped up after the B-24 ceased production. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2661 on: October 28, 2020, 06:10:25 AM »
Too, the Curtiss use of the Navy plant in Columbus, Ohio was transferred to NAA circa 1950, so that wouldn't be available for Curtiss, either.

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2662 on: October 28, 2020, 06:55:07 AM »
Curtiss-Wright would be the worst possible choice to build a Yank Lansen.  ;D
Hmm, would it have a Minnesota, Wisconsin or UP accent?  ??? :icon_fsm:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 07:00:24 AM by jcf »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2663 on: October 28, 2020, 07:07:57 AM »
And the best possible choice would be?  __________________________   ;D

I picked Curtiss-Wright out of the air - first failed planemaker that came to mind. Ditto for Westinghouse AGT ... and I didn't even know that Westinghouse had ever built airframes!  :-[

I Googled the Willow Run plant. Ownership was convoluted. Built by Ford, it was sold to the US Government who then leased it back to Ford for B-24 production. Ford had no interest in the plant postwar so the plant (and airport) were sold to the University of Michigan. Kaiser then took on a five year lease, building Kaiser-Frazer models there. Later it became a GM plant.

So, I guess we need a different location and a different manufacturer ...
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2664 on: October 28, 2020, 12:30:54 PM »
@apophenia - This is an Alt-History so would it really matter if the OTL plant was closed down?  Another aircraft plant was located at what is now Offut Air Force Base in Omaha, Nebraska.  It was operated by Glenn L. Martin Company for B-29 MO production.  It was eventually taken over by the USAF and turned in to a number of office and industrial areas.  Having attended an Joint USAF/US Army/US Navy Imagery Analyst course in that building I was quite surprised to discover that there were two levels at one end of the plant.  My "trade school" was located on the ground floor or basement of that building. 
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2665 on: October 30, 2020, 09:22:46 AM »
... This is an Alt-History so would it really matter if the OTL plant was closed down? ...

Too true. The OTL plant was turned over to the University of Michigan for a dollar. Maybe there's a rider on that requiring  tenants who are advancing aviation in Michigan?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2666 on: November 06, 2020, 09:09:01 AM »
This one spins out of a Invasion of Japan/Japan ‘46 GB topic.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9536.0

However, since these developments are in a postwar timeframe, I thought that I'd place them here instead.
________________________________

Once the Japanese Home Islands were finally fully occupied, the USAAF was anxious to demobilize veteran aircrews as quickly as possible. The Martin B-33B Marianas was seen strictly as an interim type with no future with the postwar USAAF. Accordingly, many of the Martin bombers were dispersed to US allies in the Western Pacific. The main recipient was the Republic of China which was now engaged in a civil war with its former allies in the Chinese Communist Party.

With its engine commonality, the B-33B was seen as a good match with ROCAF B-25 medium bombers (one result being the shifting of Chinese B-24s to the heavy transport role). But it was not originally intended that China should receive the Marianas. Philippines-based aircraft had been earmarked for Australia and the Netherlands. However, Australia was already preparing for local production of the Avro Lincoln. Moreover, the State Department had concerns about supplying the Dutch with heavy bombers just as their colonial war in the Netherlands East Indies was heating up. Instead, China received 15 B-33B-FO-1s and five B-33B-FO-2s.

Bottom A Martin B-33B-FO-1 Marianas of the Republic of China Air Force's 10th (Bomber) Squadron based at Chinkiang. Although there was no 'standard' Chinese Marianas, this aircraft is fairly typical. Note that the dorsal turret has been removed to improve top speed. To save further weight, the belly position has been reduced to a single .50-cal Browning. Other equipment considered non-essential was also stripped out.

This ROCAF B-33B has been named 'Wu fú'. In Mandarin, 'five bats' (Wufu) sounds very much like 'five blessings' (Wu fú). A traditional Wufu motif decorates both side of the nose (just for a bit of extra good fortune). The tail gunner - perhaps feeling he was too far away from all that goodness - had applied the Fu rebus to the sides of his gun position. Fu also means 'blessings and luck'.

Despite all its auspicious decorations, the luck didn't last for 'Wu fú'. On 26 Dec 1947, the B-33B was intercepted by a Lavochkin La-11 fighter of the 21st bingtuan, Chinese Workers' and Peasants' Red Army. After a head-on firing pass, the Lavochkin collided with the Marianas' tall tail fin. Both aircraft came down near Weihwei just north of the Hwang-ho River. The La-11 pilot - likely a Soviet VVS exchange pilot - was probably killed on impact. Three of the ROCAF aircrew were  successful in bailing out of their striken bomber.

Another Martin bomber disposed of in Asia was the B-26 Marauder. Most were scrapped on their airfields at war's end but some Marauders were retained by the Dutch in the Indië - ostensibly as patrol aircraft but, in reality, as back-ups to the NEIAF's preferred B-25 Mitchell medium bombers. The other recipient of patrol Marauders was the newly independent Republika ng Pilipinas which operated a fleet of twelve B-26G(P)s. [1]

Bottom A Martin 'B-26P' of the Hukbong Himpapawid ng Pilipinas assigned to the PhilAF's 12th (Patrol) Squadron based at Laoag Airfield (on the west coast of northern Luzon). Markings consist of an early version of the PhilAF roundel in six positions. This aircraft also carries a large national flag on the tail and 'Philippines' lettered on its belly (such markings being distinct to maritime patrol aircraft). Above the shark's mouth motif on the nose is the slogan 'Takot sa Pating!' ('Fear the Shark!').

Essentially a depot-modified patrol conversion of a B-26G-11-MA, this airframe was further stripped down for Philippines service. Despite the ferocious nose markings, defensive armament has been virtually eliminated - the nose and tail positions are now observation posts. The dorsal turret has been removed altogether and belly positions covered with plexiglass panels. Additional observation positions have also been let into the rear fuselage (these apparently being local 'mods').

'B-26P' 4734 served with the 12th (Patrol) Squadron until mid-1950. After a hangar accident, 4734 became a ground trainer which was also raided for spares to keep the PhilAF Marauder fleet flying.

________________________________

[1] The B-26G(P) was a Conversion Center modification of factory-supplied B-26G bombers. Radio and navigation kit was more extensive and extended-range tanks were installed in the aft bomb-bay extension. But the B-26G(P) conversion also involved removing superfluous bomber equipment to save weight.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2667 on: November 07, 2020, 01:54:28 AM »
Hmmm... no chance of the Chinese operating the B-33 in a '46 scenario?
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2668 on: November 07, 2020, 02:02:31 AM »
I wonder ...post war B-33 converted to Maritime Patrol.  Maybe in some of the P-2 Neptune operator schemes?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2669 on: November 09, 2020, 05:15:58 AM »
I wonder ...post war B-33 converted to Maritime Patrol.  Maybe in some of the P-2 Neptune operator schemes?

At the end of WW2, the Glenn L. Martin Company separated itself from Ford - and the B-33B - as rapidly as possible. Although Ford had not been an aircraft supplier to the US Navy since the days of its old JR trimotor, the firm made an unsolicited proposal towards a postwar replacement for the PB4Y Privateer. [1] The proposed long-range patrol bomber's airframe was essentially that of the B-33B but with major changes to armament and, especially, to powerplants. Submitted as an unofficially designated 'XPBR-1' Forrestal, [2] Ford's patrol bomber was to be powered entirely by propeller-turbine engines.

Using an incomplete B-33B-FO-2 airframe purchased back from the Army, Ford prepared a mock up for its proposal. With Martin out of the way, the opportunity was taken to install Ford's preferred armament system based on that of the XB-24N Liberator. Indeed, the one-off nose-mounted Sperry ball turret was 'recycled' directly from one of seven YB-24N prototypes. [3] The tail turret was also inspired by that of the YB-24N but was, in essence, a 'Cheyenne' position from the late-production B-17G.

Most radical were those propeller-turbine engines. Rival proposals employed piston engines - two 2,300 hp Wright R-3359-8s in the case of the Lockheed-Vega Model V-146, twin P&W R-4360-20As for the Martin Model 219. But the Martin concept - which became the P4M-1 Mercator - was a 'mixed power' design. Behind each piston engine was a 3,825 lbf Allison J33-A-17 booster jet. [4] Ford's Aviation Division believed that it had a simpler solution. The four piston engines of the B-33B would be replaced by an equal number of propeller-turbine engines - 1,760 shp General Electric TG-100 turboprops - akin to those planned for the upcoming Ryan XF2R-1 'Dark Shark'.

Ford was able to negotiate an agreement with Consolidated Vultee to provide details of its TG-100 installation from its mixed-power XP-81 fighter. [5] A simulation of the proposed installation (and its cowling) was made up and installed on the inside port wing position of Ford's patrol bomber mock up. The operational concept was that the 'XPBR-1' Forrestal would employ its outboard engines as boosters during take-off and in certain combat situations. Otherwise, those engines would be shut down and their propellers feathered to conserve fuel.
Also argued by Ford was that crew conversion from PB4Y Privateer to 'PBR-1' Forrestal would be very simple since the airframes had much in common. The Bureau of Aeronautics had its doubts.

The main concern for the BuAer was fuel burn. With two props feathered, the 'PBR-1' would be underpowered. But, with all four turboprops running, the Forrestal's fuel consumption would be excessive. There were also justifiable concerns over whether the T31 - as the TG-100 was designated in service - would ever achieve its planned output of 2,300 shp. Ford was congratulated on its effort received no other  encouragement. Despite the ease with which an 'XPBR-1' demonstrator could have been created, no prototype was ordered. Martin did receive a small order for its P4M but Lockheed-Vega was the big winner. The standard US Navy patrol bomber became the piston-engined P2V Neptune. The turboprops time had yet to come.

_____________________________________________

[1] Like the B-33B, the Navy's Privateer shared the wing and tailplane of the XB-24N.

[2] The aircraft's name was an obvious appeal to the vanity of the Secretary of the Navy. James Forrestal would prove a tragic figure but, unfortunately for Ford's Aviation Division marketing, he was not a vain man.

[3] This Sperry nose turret was much more compact than the Erco 250 SH mounted in the nose of Privateers. This better suited the modified Marauder nose profile but would have demanded gunners of smaller stature.

[4] With the 1950 P2V-5F variant, the Neptune also became 'mixed power' - adding two 3,400 lbf Westinghouse J34-WE-34 booster turbojets in underwing pods.

[5] Consolidated Vultee had no dog in the patrol bomber fight. The San Diego firm had also moved on to YP-81s with later GE TG-110 turboprops on revised mounts. Ford stuck with the heavier TG-100 for commonality with the USN's Ryan fighter.
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaț, wynna gewitaț, wera geswicaț"

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2670 on: November 09, 2020, 05:30:04 AM »
So much tail... :smiley:
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline finsrin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2671 on: November 09, 2020, 06:50:39 AM »
Is post war sweeeet...  :smiley:

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2672 on: November 10, 2020, 11:49:54 AM »
Thanks folks  :D

... makes me wonder about a Rolls-Royce Vulture engined Wellington as well.

One growth possibility for the Vickers Wellington medium bomber had been variants powered by the new Rolls-Royce Vulture X-24 engines. An enlarged version would eventually emerge as the Vickers Type 422 Warwick but, initially at least, the Ministry of Aircraft Production had no interest in a smaller variant based more closely upon the Wellington. That changed with the fall of the Low Countries and France. Suddenly, there was need for cross-Channel bombers which could carry heavier bomb loads.

A Vickers Type 404 prototype was quickly converted from a standard Wellington Mk.IA. Not obvious were the enlarged tailplane dictated by the much more powerful engines. Development flying proceeded apace with key issues identified as balance and propeller clearance. The latter problem had been anticipated and de Havilland was developing 'paddle-bladed' propellers of reduced diameter for the production model. To solve nose heaviness, it was decided to re-arrange some interior equipment and mount a powered dorsal turret , served to shift the c/g aft.

With those changes in place - along with a strengthened main undercarriage - the production-type Vickers Type 425  Waterloo Mk.I was introduced on the Weybridge production line. As a service type, the Waterloo was regarded as a short-range heavy bomber. All that meant in practice was that the Waterloo could carry the Wellington's heaviest payload at a somewhat higher speed but paid the price in a greater fuel burn. Only with a reduced bombload could the Waterloo reach many targets in the Reich. As a result, the Waterloo was overshadowed by its longer-ranged stablemate as well as the true heavy bombers which came along later.
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaț, wynna gewitaț, wera geswicaț"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2673 on: November 11, 2020, 01:34:13 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2674 on: November 11, 2020, 10:33:26 AM »
Thanks Greg. I fiddled with the fin/rudder for fun but it probably wasn't necessary - the later Wimpy with twin Hercules had about the same power as the Vultures.

On the name, my dodge was that Waterloo is a district in London. Not quite fitting within the RAF 'city' name policy for bombers but close enough for whiffery  ;)
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaț, wynna gewitaț, wera geswicaț"