Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 412936 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2575 on: June 17, 2020, 04:55:47 AM »
I had a further sequence of Paladin spin-offs ... but I think I'm Defianted out for the moment  :P

Anyway, I'll finish with these... MAP announced that the supply of Spitfire wing panels would cease, effectively ending Paladin production. Pendeford was already aware that this time was coming. Rolls-Royce's 1942 experimental Mustang Mk.X conversion presaged the imminent arrival of longer-ranging Merlin-powered Mustangs from the US. That event would effectively remove any advantages that the Paladin possessed.

With the MAP announcement, JD North and his team had to decide whether to abandon their fighter design altogether or find alternative wing sets. Reviving the original Defiant wing was mooted but quickly rejected. Even requesting details on the Mustang's laminar-flow wing was briefly considered. In the end, however, the basic wing from a rejected shipboard fighter design was resurrected. [1]

Boulton Paul's initial approach to the Admiralty was with the 'Sea Paladin' but this interim 'hooked Paladin' proposal was rejected (the FAA being convinced that long-range fighters should be 2-seaters). Undaunted, JD North et al worked up a fresh shipboard fighter concept. This new carrier fighter design looked very much like the Paladin but had a shortened fuselage, reduced fuel load, and an entirely new wing. That wing was not 'laminar-flow' but took on some of the features of the Mustang - including its wide-track undercarriage. [2]

The new Boulton Paul wing had a single main spar with stiffening mock spars - one on the inboard leading edge, the other just in front of the aileron/flap hinge line. This simplified wing-folding for stowage aboard aircraft carriers. In contrast with the double-fold of the Seafire, BP's 'Pacific' (as Pendeford dubbed it) had pivoting folds to bring the wings aft alongside the rear fuselage. This approach was thought better-suited the low overhead of British aircraft carrier hangar spaces. An entirely new undercarriage was also devised to get around the Seafire's dreaded landing 'bounce'. However, none of these features represented sufficient advantage over the Seafire to tempt the Admiralty.

Redesigning that 'Pacific' wing for use by a land fighter was a comparatively simple exercise. Rather than attempting to compete with the Spitfire, BP targeted the obsolescing Hurricanes being used by the RAF in the South-East Asian Theatre. Construction would be kept as simple and durable as possible. However, this would be a stressed-skin aircraft avoiding the wood and fabric components of the Hurricane as much as possible.

_______________________

[1] John North considered this an interim design pending acceptance of the more advanced P.103 and P.104 naval fighters.

[2] The wings were all dramatically different in planform. Whereas the Mustang had a 'square-cut' look about it, the BP wing was more triangular - referencing the original Defiant tail and rudder shape for its outline.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2576 on: June 18, 2020, 01:33:31 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2577 on: June 29, 2020, 02:47:19 AM »
Look what I just stumbled across a photo of:

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2578 on: June 29, 2020, 09:15:09 AM »
 :D :D  It does say should-have-been, doesn't it?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2579 on: July 01, 2020, 07:47:41 AM »
Okay, I'd sworn off Defiants for a bit. And then Sport25ing posted this:
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=9340.0

So, I think it is only fair that Sport25ing shares in at least part of the blame for the following ...

Sovetskiye Difayentov - The Soviet Defiants

Top Defiant I of the 52nd BAP (Bombardirovshchik aviatsionnogo polka or Bomber Aviation Regiment). When assigned to mixed units like the 52nd BAP, the turret fighters flew as Soprovozhdeniye samoleta (escort aircraft). This aircraft was lost to ground fire in late July 1942 while escorting its Sukhoi Su-2 squadron mates over the Tsentralny district of Stalingrad.

Defiant 'White 29' wears the standard RAF camouflage scheme in which it was delivered to Murmansk. The 'presentation' inscription beneath the cockpit reads: "Ot Rabotnikov Vulvergemtona" ('From the Workers of Wolverhampton'). The tailfin slogan is less formal. It reads (appropriately defiantly): "Ya budu kusat'!" ('I will bite!'). Note that this aircraft lacks underwing stars.

Bottom A Defiant I fitted with a Soviet replacement turret. Operating from Vaenga airfield outside Murmansk, this experimental aircraft appears to have seen prior squadron service - an individual aircraft number has clearly been removed from its fin. For unknown reasons, the original fuselage star has also been overpainted and replaced.

This is a trials aircraft with a manually-operated MV-5 dorsal turret. The MV-5 was no direct replacement for the 4-gunned Boulton Paul Type A power-operated turret. The MV-5 was armed with only a single 7.62 mm ShKas with 900 rounds. It was substantially lighter than the British turret and, most importantly, it was available. As the Soviet Union had already been made aware, stocks of British equipment could no longer be relied upon.

(To be continued ...)
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Online Sport25ing

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2580 on: July 01, 2020, 04:33:33 PM »
 ;D

Your Welcome  ;D

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2581 on: July 02, 2020, 02:47:50 AM »
As previously commented, it's interesting just how much the Shturmovik (early models) like the Defiant looks without the turret (and some wing guns of course):





Going a step further, perhaps there could be a turreted version of the Il-2 in the works...
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2582 on: July 02, 2020, 05:27:14 AM »
I've tried a pixelbash of a Shturmovik with a Defiant turret, but IIRC the turret seemed a little wide for the fuselage.
Will have to see whether the profile still exists (on some hard disk drive or other  :P).

The Soviet Defiants look great!  :smiley:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 05:29:19 AM by ChernayaAkula »
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2583 on: July 03, 2020, 09:51:06 AM »
I've tried a pixelbash of a Shturmovik with a Defiant turret, but IIRC the turret seemed a little wide for the fuselage...

Interesting. Of course, that Type A turret is really a wide for the Defiant fuselage too  ;D
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2584 on: July 04, 2020, 02:06:08 AM »
Well, look here, truth is stranger then fiction: 





In early 1943 a UTK-1 turret (the same type of turret of Il-4s and LI-2s) was trialled.  Despite the good field of fire, the installation was not chosen for production, probably due to the increasing in drag and to the necessity to relocate the fuel tank.

That said, perhaps a whiff version set up[ as a night fighter could be done?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2585 on: July 04, 2020, 11:31:27 AM »
Well, look here, truth is stranger then fiction...

Very cool! History is indeed stranger than whiffery!

I was playing with the Il-2 with a Boulton Paul Type A. This is crude but shows that it was do-able.
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2586 on: Yesterday at 02:59:32 AM »
 :smiley:

Does anyone know if you can get a 1/48 Soviet UTK-1 turret?  I know it is possible to get one in 1/72.

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2587 on: Yesterday at 09:20:09 AM »
Back to the Soviet Defiants ...

Sovetskiye Difayentov - The Soviet Defiants

Britain was quite willing to supply its Soviet ally with equipment in 1941 but demand for Rolls-Royce Merlin engines was outstripping available supplies. With reluctance, the British Air Mission to Moscow informed the Soviet government that current shipments of Boulton-Paul Defiant turret fighters would be the last. Moscow responded to the Head of the BAM that the Soviet Union was happy to accept engineless Defiant airframes. The Soviets could supply their own powerplants.

Top Defiant I(K) experimental aircraft. This Mk.I has been fitted with a Soviet 1,200 hp Klimov M-105PA engines. The origins of this aircraft has been the subject of some debate. However, the yellowish Soviet ALG-1 primer on cowling fittings strongly suggests that this conversion was performed in Russia - Boulton Paul would have almost certainly have applied standard British zinc chromate green primer.

As a 'production' conversion, the Defiant Mk.X(K) had a 1,260 hp Klimov M-105PF engine. [1] This did not imply use of a motor-cannon (for which space was lacking) but rather an attempt to rationalize Soviet engine supplies to the V-VS. The Mk.X(K) was quickly eclipsed by the turretless Mk.XI(K). [2] The latter retained the earlier model's outer wing weapons bay (in which the Soviets mounted a total of 7.62 mm ShKAS machine guns. [3]

Bottom A Defiant Mk.XII(K) representing the third series. For unknown reasons,  this particular aircraft has been fitted with what appears to be LaGG-3 tailwheel.

The Mk.XII(K) introduced a more powerful armament. The previous wing arrangement was reversed - outer fuel tanks being carried, the armaments bay being moved inboard. The Soviet-installed forward-firing armament now consisted of two 20 mm ShVak shell guns. The flexible, rear-firing pair of ShKas gun was replaced by a single 12.7 mm Berezin UBK machine gun. Although none are mounted here, wing racks could be fitted for two FAB 250 bombs or RS-82 unguided rockets.

At one stage, it was planned to fit pod-mounted 37 mm Shpitalny Sh-37 cannons to turreted Defiants. This was cancelled in favour of installing 23 mm Volkov-Yartsev VYa-23 guns in underwing 'pan'yes'. Few such conversions were made due to attrition and most surviving V-VS Defiant Is would be converted into 2-seat trainers.

__________________________

[1] This designation was based on an Air Ministry decision to apply 'X' numbers to Soviet-specific Defiants while reserving lower numbers for potential RAF Defiant developments.

[2] Removing the turret resulted in a dramatic shift in the centre of gravity. The c/g was restored through the rearrangement of equipment and increased armour plate protection for the crew and a new mid-fuselage fuel tank.

[3] Oddly, no attempt was ever made to rationalize the turret armaments with Soviet-calibre weapons.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:22:14 AM by apophenia »
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2588 on: Today at 01:19:27 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2589 on: Today at 01:20:30 AM »
Any chance of a Defiant with a UTK-1 turret?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.