Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 416445 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2425 on: January 11, 2020, 05:34:55 AM »
Interestingly, one of the headline photos in MSN news stories about the fires today,  had this C-130 in it.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2426 on: January 12, 2020, 07:42:39 AM »
No.  The support at this stage is to their C-130s.

Cool! And, I see, T134 has a new and completely different livery  :smiley:

I've now decided to rejig my Dash 8 scheme into a simpler concept aimed directly at Coulson ...
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Offline kerick

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2427 on: January 12, 2020, 08:29:18 AM »
With the J model C-130 replacing the older ones are there E and H model Hercs available for firebombers?

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2428 on: January 12, 2020, 10:57:49 AM »
I just took a peek at this year's GB poll and I think you're going to have an excellent opportunity to show some of your fantastic fire-fighting concepts, apophenia.

It's a treat to see you apply your limitless talent to these often over-looked types!

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2429 on: January 13, 2020, 03:32:25 PM »
With the J model C-130 replacing the older ones are there E and H model Hercs available for firebombers?

There are but, invariably, old Hercs need to have their centre wing boxes replacing (and the USAF just found ot that its newish 'J-models aren't immune from wing joint cracking either). Not sure how much that costs nowadays - it was around US$7M per aircraft about 5 years ago.

It's notable that -  after five years work on the project - the US Forest Service abandoned its plans to convert seven donated ex-Coast Guard HC-130Hs to air tankers. That said, Coulson just bought five ex-NorAF C-130Hs that were stored at Davis-Monthan ...

Brian Cheers! My fingers are crossed for a Fire fighting GB - currently near the top of the pack  :smiley:

I note that 40 members have voted so far. For those who haven't cast their ballots yet, it's too late to vote early so remember to vote often  ;)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 03:34:35 PM by apophenia »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2430 on: January 15, 2020, 11:34:30 AM »
Another stab at a Dash 8-based Common Medium Air Tanker. This time I've modelled the conversion on the Coulson RADS tanks (7,000 L total) for the Airbus C295W. The big difference, of course, is that the Dash 8 has no rear loading ramp. So, instead, this Q100 has first been converted into a package freighter.

The 'PF' conversion involves fitting cargo floor roller and a B/E Aerospace (Collins) large freight door. The Coulson RADS tanks would loaded through the freight door one at a time and slid forward to sit beneath the wing box. Retardant dump door would be permanently fitted (à la the Coulson C-130Q conversion) but the rest of the Air Tanker kit would be readily removable.

Otherwise, the basic Common Medium Air Tanker concept remains the same. Coulson RADS tanks could be exchanged between Australia, California, and Western Canada for use on local Dash 8 freighter/air tanker conversions.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2431 on: January 15, 2020, 04:37:07 PM »
Wow is that a stunning fire-fighter!

Those work-horses are rarely beauty contest winners but this one gets the blood going as they say.

Most excellent, apophenia and once again, your rendering of those details is without peer.

Brian da Basher

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2432 on: January 15, 2020, 11:31:23 PM »
Stephen   :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

I think that could lead to one of my Dash-8 kit's getting converted ---

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2433 on: January 16, 2020, 04:45:45 AM »
Many thanks! Robert: I think this is 'do-able' in 1/1 scale as well. But perhaps not as I've laid it out above ...

The Coulson C295W system uses two retardant tanks listed at 3,500 litre (924 US gallon) each with a total of 6,050 litres (1,600 US gallons) ... (added: perhaps the 6.050L is the usable amount?) and why the 50L increase, I don't know.

The C295W has a cabin length of 12.70 m (41' 8"), while the Q200 cabin length is only 9.16 m (30' 1"). That shouldn't be an issue since the C295W cabin fitted with RADS is mainly empty. Weight is a whole 'nother matter, though.

I said in Reply #2430 that my Common Medium Air Tanker would carry two RADS tanks. Not counting tank weight, that 6,050L of fluid alone weighs ~13,350 lbs. But most sources put the Q200 payload at only 8,920 lbs (~1,070 US gallons) ... in other words, closer to a single C295W RADS tank ;P

On the other hand, the Q300 payload is listed as 13,500 lbs/6,124 kg (~1,615 US gallons), which is almost bang on for Coulson's C295W system. My question is: why the big payload difference between the Q200 and Q300? Some models of Q300 have an extra 100 shp per engine. Perhaps the increased payload applies only to those higher-powered models? If so, is 200 shp more really enough to make such a difference in payload?

Q300 cabin size is about the same as the C295. But, obviously, I am missing something here. I can't how adding a total of 400 shp and 3.43 m (11' 4") of extra fuselage weight results in a 4,580 lbs/2075 kg increase in payload   :icon_surprised:

Anyone got any theories?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 11:14:17 AM by apophenia »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2434 on: January 16, 2020, 07:10:54 AM »
Wouldn't that be 7000L ?

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2435 on: January 16, 2020, 10:49:19 AM »
Wouldn't that be 7000L ?

Doh! Of course it would  :-[

But my question remains: Why the degree of difference in payload between Q200 and Q300?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2436 on: January 17, 2020, 11:21:18 AM »
Inspired by this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=653.msg164086#msg164086

and this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=653.msg164581#msg164581

Here is a turretless Chinese People's Liberation Army M4A2 Sherman tank rebuilt as a tank destroyer and direct fire-support vehicle. The new main armament is a reclaimed Japanese Type 88 75 mm anti-aircraft gun (probably one with a damaged or sabotaged mount).

Able to out-range and out-perform National Army Shermans, the Type 88 fired a powerful 75 x 497 mmR round (as compared with the weaker US 75 x 350R round fired by Shermans).
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2437 on: January 18, 2020, 03:16:11 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2438 on: January 18, 2020, 06:04:13 AM »
That looks every bit the business, apophenia.

You have a rare talent for rendering armor.

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2439 on: January 21, 2020, 10:36:51 AM »
Inspired by this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=805.msg164723#msg164723

Would work? Dunno. Depends how snug the supercharger is to the front spar, I guess ...

BTW: I couldn't see a way to extend the tailplane à la the FG-2 Corsair so I gave her a new, broader tail fin and rudder.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 10:38:40 AM by apophenia »
"And loot some for the old folks, Can't loot for themselves"

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2440 on: January 21, 2020, 01:20:30 PM »
Inspired by this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=805.msg164723#msg164723

Would work? Dunno. Depends how snug the supercharger is to the front spar, I guess ...

BTW: I couldn't see a way to extend the tailplane à la the FG-2 Corsair so I gave her a new, broader tail fin and rudder.

Very nice!!  I wonder if the vertical fin and rudder might also need to be made taller?  Still, it would be an interesting model and I can see a 5-bladed prop being used to truly harness all that horsepower.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2441 on: January 22, 2020, 02:37:20 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2442 on: January 22, 2020, 05:45:35 AM »
Inspired by this: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=805.msg164723#msg164723

Would work? Dunno. Depends how snug the supercharger is to the front spar, I guess ...

BTW: I couldn't see a way to extend the tailplane à la the FG-2 Corsair so I gave her a new, broader tail fin and rudder.


The overall length of the TSB1-G engine used in the F4U-1 WM test-bed was
96.75". The majority of the single-stage, variable speed supercharger versions
were in the range of 96.5 - 96.75".
The overall installed length of the R-2800-30W of the F8F-2 was 92.75".
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 05:48:03 AM by jcf »
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2443 on: January 22, 2020, 06:55:34 AM »
Jon: Thanks for that. So the difference in engine length for the single-stage blower is only 4 inches! That's amazing.

Evan: You're probably right about increasing the height ofthe fin and rudder. Not a big deal since they'd be completely re-designing the vertical tailplane anyway.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2444 on: January 22, 2020, 08:26:24 AM »
That's a nice stealth mod to the Bearcat. I had to look close to catch it.

Well done, apophenia! Yet another art work that could fool the "experts".

Brian da Basher

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2445 on: January 22, 2020, 09:58:52 AM »
Maybe a contra-prop like they used on the Boeing F8B

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2446 on: January 22, 2020, 10:59:46 AM »
Thanks folks! The XF8B-1's Aeroproducts AD7562-XB contra-prop and spinner would look great (and lessen potential tip speed problems).

I'm guessing there'd be weight gain up front though. So, maybe a longer rear fuselage to compensate?
"And loot some for the old folks, Can't loot for themselves"

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2447 on: January 22, 2020, 02:51:14 PM »
Thanks folks! The XF8B-1's Aeroproducts AD7562-XB contra-prop and spinner would look great (and lessen potential tip speed problems).

I'm guessing there'd be weight gain up front though. So, maybe a longer rear fuselage to compensate?

Weight delta between the R-2800 engined F4U-1 and the R-4360 engined F4U-1 WM was 1284 lbs.
Directly engine and installation related:
Engine + 866 lbs
Prop +200 lbs
Engine mounts/cowl etc. +115 lbs
Piping, fittings misc. + 64 lbs

Total 1245 lbs fwd of the firewall.

The numbers would be similar for the switch on the F8F.
 
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2448 on: January 23, 2020, 12:17:31 AM »


I'm guessing there'd be weight gain up front though. So, maybe a longer rear fuselage to compensate?

You could do the same what Supermarine did with the Spitfire Stephen. It's well documented the different total lengths of the various engine/prop powered Spitfires, the longest being 3 feet longer than the Mk.I. What is not well documented is the length of the fuselage from the engine bulkhead to the tail assembly joint never changed through it's whole production cycle (and for that matter, neither did the distance between the tail assembly joint and the rudder hinge line), and that includes all the Seafires, Spitefuls and Seafangs too. The difference in length is all accountable with what engine/prop was installed on the front and what rudder was installed on the fin.

Supermarine's solution to the weight problem was to have counter-weights installed in the space between Frame 18 and Frame 19 (the tail assembly joint frame). The most weight installed was over 200lbs. Information in the Morgan/Shacklady book has drawing diagrams of the counter-weight installation.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:41:32 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2449 on: January 23, 2020, 03:50:57 AM »
Ballasting was a common solution to engine change issues, both lighter
and heavier engines. If it was possible to change the engine mount to
mount a lighter engine further forward, that was done, in some cases
that wasn't an option so the ballast would be added forward.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014