Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 281298 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1980 on: December 23, 2018, 02:13:31 AM »
Here's another scenario:  The Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 called a lot of concern in the rest of Scandinavia.  Whilst the so-called Winter War officially ended in March 1940, the concern remained.  In June 1941, Germany launched Operation Barbarossa.  Coincident with this, the Finnish Defence Forces launched their own offensive.  This war would become known as the Continuation War.  Whilst not wanting to get officially involved in the German led war against the USSR, the Swedish Govt did allow for 'volunteers' to fight with the Finnish Defence Forces.  As part of this a 'volunteer' unit equipped initially with Fiat CR.42s operated in Ilmavoimat markings.  Later in 1943, the CR.42s were replaced with FFVS J22s also in Ilmavoimat markings...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1981 on: December 29, 2018, 07:16:11 AM »
What if they got talking to Hawker & went for the more stable wide-track landing gear of the Hurricane? ;)

Here's another scenario:  The Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 called a lot of concern in the rest of Scandinavia.  Whilst the so-called Winter War officially ended in March 1940, the concern remained.  In June 1941, Germany launched Operation Barbarossa.  Coincident with this, the Finnish Defence Forces launched their own offensive.  This war would become known as the Continuation War.  Whilst not wanting to get officially involved in the German led war against the USSR, the Swedish Govt did allow for 'volunteers' to fight with the Finnish Defence Forces.  As part of this a 'volunteer' unit equipped initially with Fiat CR.42s operated in Ilmavoimat markings.  Later in 1943, the CR.42s were replaced with FFVS J22s also in Ilmavoimat markings...

Hmm, may have to circle 'round for another go at the FFVS fighters  >:D   But, meanwhile, a RW design, albeit, not one built in this exact form ...

The genesis story of the P-51 Mustang always begins in April 1940 with North American Aviation being invited to license-build the Curtiss Kittyhawk for the RAF. NAA President 'Dutch' Kindelberger counters this proposal with an offer to build a superior fighter of original design. The British Air Purchasing Commission accepts this offer while raising the stakes - a prototype this new fighter must be completed within 120 days. North American Aviation rises to the challenge and the prototype NA-73X is essentially completed in 117 days. And a legend is born.

But, as with most legends, there was more to this story. NAA designer, Edgar Schmued had produced an Allison-powered fighter concept as far back as 1935 - two years before design work began on the Curtiss XP-37 or Bell XP-39 pursuits. More to the point, several months before that meeeting with the British Air Purchasing Commission, Ed Schmued had sketched out a fresh fighter design which looked very much like the NA-73 Mustang. This new design was shown in NAA Drawing No. P-509 rendered circa February 1940.

The Drawing No. P-509 design had a vague resemblance to the as-yet-unbuilt Curtiss XP-46 fighter - prototypes of which had been ordered by the USAAC several months earlier. Drawing No. P-509 illustrated a sleek fighter with trapezoidal laminar-flow wings, a shallow belly radiator bath mounted far back on rear fuselage, and a square-cut tailplane (similar in shape to the tail of the unbuilt NAA P-500 light fighter concept for the French). The outline of what would become the NA-73 Mustang was already evident in February 1940.

Top - c. Feb. 1940 North American Aviation fighter concept (Drawing No. P-509). Note the cowling-mounted guns (mounted somewhat higher on the fuselage than in the built NA-73).

Just prior to the April meeting with the British, the design was slightly revised. The most noticeable change in Drawing No. P-509-1 produced on 10 March 1940 was the lengthening and movement forward of the radiator bath.

Bottom - 10 March 1940 North American Aviation fighter concept (Drawing No. P-509-1). Note the cowling-mounted guns (mounted somewhat higher on the fuselage than in the built NA-73). Here, I've shown the quartet of wing-mounted machine guns shown on the mockup of this design. I've also added a few Mustang-like details - tail balance, rudder trim tab, etc., not shown in NAA Drawing No. P-509-1.

Ed Schmued and Raymond Rice still had some way to go before finalizing the design built as the NA-73X prototype. The most obvious changes would be a revised cockpit canopy and a lengthened rear fuselage. The longer fuselage pushed the vertical tail and rudder aft but not the horizontal tailplane. The canopy was simplified in shape (the curvacious windscreen retained on the NA-73X prototype, giving way to a flat, armour-glass panel on production Mustangs. [1] A minor change is the Allison's carberettor intake being extended forward [2] and no longer fairing into the windscreen. The latter may suggest that the NA-73X's upper fuselage line has been raised slightly compared with Drawing No. P-509-1.

____________________________________

[1] The rear quarterlight transparencies were also changed - being shortened to greatly resemble those of the XP-46.

[2] This air intake would be extended still further forward on production NA-73 Mustangs.

Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline Brian da Basher

  • He has an unnatural attraction to Spats...and a growing fascination with airships!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hulk smash, Brian bash
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1982 on: December 29, 2018, 09:22:02 AM »
"Moving Towards the Mustang"?!!

How'd you know I have at least four P-51s in the stash?

Sometimes it's like you've got a camera on me or sumthin'.

Great work and you really nailed the look of an early Mustang! I really like the new back windows.

I think there's lots of fodder in unknown interim prototypes.

Great stuff and always food for thought!

Brian da Basher

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1983 on: December 30, 2018, 02:35:27 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1984 on: December 30, 2018, 07:24:04 AM »
How'd you know I have at least four P-51s in the stash?

Sometimes it's like you've got a camera on me or sumthin'...

If you build one of your P-51 stash kits in the form of Drawing No. P-509-1, I'll turn the camera off. Promise ...  ;)

______________________________________

Now into the realm of the complete whif ...

Export Fighter - North American Aviation's NA-50S Nemesis

The first North American Aviation fighter design for export market was the NA-50 - a straightforward single-seat derivative of the firm's NA-26 2-seat trainer. Seven Wright Cyclone-powered NA-50 fighters were delivered to Peru by May 1939 but no other interest in this modest 'economy fighter' were immediately forthcoming. The NAA design office's attention returned to an earlier NA-50 proposal - the more advanced NA-50L with the 'L' for its laminar-flow wing.

The NA-50 concept was a radial-engined outgrowth of Ed Schmued's still-born 1935 fighter design powered by an Allison V-12 engine. To reduce development costs, the fuselage was redesigned to make use of as many components as possible from North American's basic/advanced 2-seat trainers. One NA-50 development line retained the 1935 design's wing, another - emerging as the NA-50 - adopted a shortened NA-26 trainer wing. The later NA-50L concept combined features of the more advanced NA-50 concept with a new NACA laminar-flow wing section. [1]

In its original form, the NA-50L was to be powered by a 1,050 hp Pratt & Whitney R-1830-SC3G Twin Wasp radial [2] driving a three-bladed Hamilton-Standard constant-speed propeller with its hub enclosed in a streamlined spinner. Armament was to comprise a pair of .50-calibre machine guns synchronized to fire through the propeller disc. Optional wing-gun armament could consist of another pair of .50-calibres or a quartet of .30-calibre guns firing outside of the propeller arc.

Interest was expressed in the NA-50L by the government of Siam. Initially, Bangkok considered a cannon-armed derivative of the NA-50A but Siamese officials were swayed by the superior performance offered by the NA-50L. Two options were examined. The first would be powered by an R-1820-G205A Cyclone engine and armed with two 20 mm Madsen cannons and a pair of 7.62 mm machine guns. The second scheme would be more of an 'off-the-peg' offering - retaining the standard Twin Wasp engine (albeit fitted with a Curtiss Electric airscrew) and armed with eight 7.62 mm machine guns. The lower cost of option 2 convinced Bangkok to place an order for a dozen NA-50S fighters built to this standard. [3]

North American extensively marketed the NA-50S as the Nemesis fighter. There was a goodly amount of interest from foreign governments but NAA was trying to enter a market already dominated by the Curtiss Model 75 Hawk. In the end, even the Siam deal fell through when the US government banned sales to Thailand (as the country had by then been renamed). Ironically, the only service user of NA-50S Nemesis 'export fighter' was the US Army Air Force. The USAAF received all 12 NA-50S fighters destined for Thailand and operated them as P-64s. Although designated as 'Pursuits', the P-64s never saw action - serving exclusively as advanced trainers for future Army fighter pilots.
____________________________________

[1] This same laminar-flow section would also eventually appear on the P-509 progenitors to the NA-73 Mustang.

[2] As had been planned for the unbuilt North American NA-50B - based on the NA-50 airframe but Twin Wasp-powered

[3] For added economy, the Siamese fighters were armed with only six 7.62 mm wing guns but those aircraft were equipped to receive the full complement of eight guns if desired.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 07:45:55 AM by apophenia »
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1985 on: December 30, 2018, 07:25:13 AM »
The Trials of Nemesis - Testbed North American NA-50S Aircraft

Several NA-50S airframes were used as trials aircraft. One of the original Siamese/Thai NA-50S airframes was modified to air test a 20 mm Madsen cannon installation. It was anticipated that this might facilitate a second batch of Thai 'export fighter' orders but that hope was dashed by the US Government's export ban. In the end, the 'cannon fighter' was modified back to standard four-machine gun form.

As previously noted, the cancelled delivery of Thai NA-50S resulted in the dozen aircraft being taken over by the US Army Air Corps as P-64s (the Nemesis name not being used in US service). These aircraft were operated as advanced fighter-trainers and were sometimes referred to as 'TP-64s'. In late 1942, the former 'cannon fighter' testbed was returned to North American Aviation for needed repairs to its restored wing armament bays. Since NAA required a testbed aircraft, a simpler expedient was employed of eliminating the armament and reinforcing the empty gun bays.

This aircraft - USAAF 41-1573 - was used by North American to test turbo-supercharger installations. The 'blower' was fitted into a belly fairing with a variety of fresh-air intake shapes being tested. The trial installation was never intended to be specific to turbocharged P-64 development. Instead, it was to gather data which might prove useful in later B-25 and P-51 developments. A 'blower' fire put 41-1573 permanently out of action and it ended its days as an instructional airframe.
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline Brian da Basher

  • He has an unnatural attraction to Spats...and a growing fascination with airships!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hulk smash, Brian bash
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1986 on: December 31, 2018, 05:05:15 AM »
I really like your Nemesises, apophenia!

You've got a real gift for hitting on many of my esoteric interests and this one is like what the P-64 might've been.

Great stuff as always and your rendering of the NMF is outstanding!

Brian da Basher

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1987 on: December 31, 2018, 02:34:36 PM »
The Peruvian aircraft were simply NA-50 (NA-16-5) and not the same as the NA-68 (NA-50A) ordered
by Thailand and taken over by the US as the P-64. The NA-68s had a redesigned empennage and canopy
along with a heavier armament. 
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1988 on: January 04, 2019, 07:48:23 AM »
Cheers Brian and thanks Jon for the corrections (changes to 'NA-50' now made in the text).

For those interested, there is a NA-50 Torito preserved on a pylon in Peru:
https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/delaPuente/10962.htm

Planet Models do a CAP NA-50 in 1/48 (PLT238):
http://www.hyperscale.com/2011/reviews/kits/planet238reviewse_1.htm

There is also an extant NA-50(sic)/NA-50A/NA-68/P-64 owned by the EAA:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-museum/museum-collection/aircraft-collection-folder/1940-north-american-p-64-na-50---n840

Xotic-72 does a 1/72 P-64 (XK2030):
http://www.internetmodeler.com/2006/august/first-looks/xotic_p64.php

Planet Models also does the P-64 in 1/48 (PLT239):
https://www.agapemodels.com/2012/06/08/build-report-planet-models-148-p-64/

There's been a few Harvard/Texan conversions simulating NA-50s and P-64s - some successive likenesses, some not so much. And there's been similar scale model conversion attempts: http://www.ipmsusa.org/reviews/features/aircraft/baker_p64/baker_p64.htm
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1989 on: January 05, 2019, 12:30:23 AM »
The Planet NA-50 is a co-production with Antarki Models of Peru, Amaru Tincopa
and friends, who did the research and patterns, it's a nice kit. They've been
working on Douglas O-38 and 8A kits as well.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1990 on: January 09, 2019, 07:48:01 AM »
The Planet NA-50 is a co-production with Antarki Models of Peru, Amaru Tincopa
and friends, who did the research and patterns, it's a nice kit. They've been
working on Douglas O-38 and 8A kits as well.

Great idea doing limited-edition kits in concert with local researchers!

Now, some more playing with the North American NA-50 ...

(Top NA-50 'Torito' ('Little Bull') fighter (No. 3-41) as delivered to Peru.

(Bottom NA-50M'Super Torito' post-WW2 upgrade and modernization mods.

This aircraft (No. 8-41) has an uprated 1,200 hp Wright R-1820-97 Cyclone and modified cowling taken from a USAAF-surplus C-60A Lodestar transport (although most replacement Cyclones originated with scrapped Lockheed Hudson IVAs scrapped in Western Canada. Since these replacement engines lacked interupter gears, fixed armament was moved to the outer wing panels to fire outside the propeller arc.

The most dramatic change is the lowered rear fuselage to accomodate a 'bubble' canopy taken from a scrapped Republic P-47D. Most such ex-USAAF equipment was exported as used 'Maquinaria Agrícola' loaded onto Peruvian 'banana boats' returning from Texan or Californian ports.
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline Brian da Basher

  • He has an unnatural attraction to Spats...and a growing fascination with airships!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hulk smash, Brian bash
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1991 on: January 10, 2019, 08:08:08 AM »
Your Super Torito delights me to no end! Must be something about that canopy that makes it cute as a button.

Brian da Basher

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1992 on: January 11, 2019, 06:38:25 AM »
Very early NA-16 fighter and bomber versions offered for export in the '30s.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 06:40:02 AM by jcf »
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline apophenia

  • Suffered two full days of rapid-fire hallucinations and yet had not a single usuable whif concept in the lot !?!
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1993 on: January 18, 2019, 07:07:00 AM »
Okay ... that single-seat concept must be rendered! Cheers Jon :smiley:

But now more on the North American theme in a different direction ...
_________________________

RBC 'Bob' Noorduyn bet very well when he bought a production license for North American Aviation's NA-16. Between 1941 and 1945, Noorduyn Aviation Ltd, Cartierville, Quebec produced 2,800 Harvard IIB advanced trainers for the RCAF and RAF (with some going to Australia, New Zealand, and India). As soon as the War ended, Harvard production contracts were cancelled and Noorduyn shifted from NA-16 production to updated Norseman V bush planes.

Noorduyn Aviation also turned to providing spares for postwar Harvard users from the firm's plentiful stock. The company's final design was for a modification marketed as the Commonwealth Harvard. This involved re-engining Harvards with the Bristol Mercury radial - a scheme proven with a Harvard IIB bought back from the RCAF (ex-3326). This was comparatively simple since the original Wasp engine was of similar size and weight to the British Mercury. [1]

Bottom Former RCAF 3326 re-engined as the Commonwealth Harvard demonstrator. This aircraft retains its RCAF paintwork with civilian additions. The non-standard roundel was one of many 'maple leaf' variants proposed for the RCAF in the early postwar period.

The object of the Commonwealth Harvard was to reduce Lend-Lease payments. [2] Alas, neither the RCAF or other Commonwealth air forces were interested in purchasing Noorduyn's conversion kits for their Harvard fleets. In early 1946, Noorduyn Aviation and its rights to the NA-16 were acquired by Canadian Car & Foundry. CCF took over production of the Norseman V and would later develop the Harvard 4.

Bob Noorduyn moved on. It quickly became apparent that his old boss, Tony Fokker, left no room in Noorduyn's native Holland for competitors. However, an opportunity appeared in the Netherlands East Indies. Indonesian nationalists were in full revolt in 1946 and the Militaire Luchtvaart van het Koninklijk Nederlands-Indisch Leger (ML-KNIL) was operating both the ex-USAAF UC-64A Norseman utility transport and AT-6 trainers - the US equivalent of the Noorduyn Harvard II.

As it happened, the RAAF had just retired its fleet of Lend-Lease UC-64As and Bob Noorduyn was able to convince the ML-KNIL brass in Batavia that they needed more Norsemans. In early 1946, the RAAF's surviving UC-64As were stored at RAAF Tocumwal, NSW. That was where the newly-established Noorduyn Aircraft Pty. would be established. [3] There, the new firm would restore surplus RAAF Norsemans as well as ex-USAAF UC-64As sourced from throughout the former South West Pacific theatre and India.

Approaches were also made to the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation in Victoria. Talks were begun to explore joint development possibilities for the Norseman, Harvard, and Wirraway. Several schemes seemed promising enough for further exporation but an unexpected development also arose. Before selling out to CCF, Noorduyn had investigated the possibility of a more powerful, armed Harvard derivative. [4] A CAC engineer, Alan Bolton, suggested that such an airframe could be readily created by combining components from the CA-14/CA-19 Boomerang with a Wirraway or Harvard airframe.

Top The partially completed 'Super Harvard' conversion at CAC facility, Fisherman's Bend, Vic., early 1947. This aircraft added a Boomerang centre section and engine to a Harvard airframe.

[To be continued ...]
___________________________________

[1] Perhaps surprisingly, the higher-powered 24.9 L Mercury had a slightly smaller diameter (51.5 in) than the 22.0 L R-1340 Wasp (51.75 in). However, the Mercury weighed 35 lbs more than the Wasp.

[2] This would be done by adapting Harvards to surplus British-made components where possible. The Wasp engines and other American-made equipment was to be returned to the US.

[3] For Noorduyn, Tocumwal was perfectly situated. Being on the banks of the Murray River, it would be ideal for testing refurbished Norseman aircraft on floats. Tocumwal also sat on the Victorian border, making it halfway between the existing Australian aviation manufacturers in Port Melbourne, Victoria and the Sydney area of New South Wales.

[4] In Noorduyn's original scheme it was planned that surplus Wright R-1820 Cyclone radials would replace the original R-1340 engines.
Under investigation by the Committee of State Sanctioned Modelling, Alternative History and Tractor Carburettor Production for decadent counterrevolutionary behaviour.

Offline Brian da Basher

  • He has an unnatural attraction to Spats...and a growing fascination with airships!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hulk smash, Brian bash
Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1994 on: January 18, 2019, 08:35:21 AM »
The Mercury looks like a natural on the Harvard.

Your yellow RCAF version is a real treat for the eyes!

Brian da Basher