Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 414158 times)

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1950 on: December 07, 2018, 08:50:22 AM »
I really like the look of your J23s, apophenia!

I find Swedish aircraft from that era interesting and you've come up with an excellent progression!

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1951 on: December 08, 2018, 06:39:36 AM »
If you're playing with the J22, any chance of a standard one in Ethiopian markings to serve alongside their real world B-17s...

For sure, maybe doped silver to match the B17s ... or desert camo?

Brian: Thanks! Here's some whif FFVS J22 variants ...
_________________________________________________

Eksport - the FFVS J22E for Finland

The first is a J22E in full Finnish markings. [1] In Ilmavoimat service, the J22E was nicknamed 'Ruotsalainen' ('The Swede'). Less flatteringly, the J22 was also dubbed Fyrkka ('The Needful') - a  nickname based on its sketchy maintenance record. The J22 may not have been well suited to Finnish operating conditions but maintenance issues were exacerbated by Helsinki under-investing in spares.

(Top) Ilmavoimat FFVS J22E, note German-supplied R/T mast and antenna.

Vatten - the FFVS J22V Float Fighter

The FFVS J22V was a straightforward floatplane (sjöflygplan) adaptation of the J22A. A single, main float (central ponton) tied into the landplane's landing gear mounting points. Wing ribs were strengthened to allow for the twin outrigger floats (stabiliserande flottörer). An enlarged vertical tail and rudder were substituted for the originals but, otherwise, the airframe remained largely unchanged. [2]

The J22V prototype was prepared to meet the Flygvapnet's requirement for an Öjakt or 'Island Fighter'. In theory, the Öjagern were to provide additional fighter coverage from 'unbombable' bases. Of course, Sweden's many lakes and its Baltic shoreline were only useable when ice-free. But, this view of the Öjakt concept was something of a ruse.

In reality, the Flygvapnet was trying to match a secret Swedish defence scenario. That was: a potential Swedish take over of the Åland Islands in the Gulf of Bothnia should Finland fall to the Soviets. The idea was that a fait accompli occupation would thwart any plans by the Soviet (or Nazi Germany) to occupy those islands. No serious planning was undertaken for such an occupation as Stockholm had realized that the Ålands were effectively beyond the reach for the Swedish military.

All of the strategizing was a moot point for the Öjagern team. The overall performance of the float-fitted J22V was singularly disappointing. The float fighter retained a surprising degree of manoeuvrability but its lowered top speed made its chances of intercepting attacking aircraft improbable and any success in fighter-to-fighter combat highly unlikley. Accordingly, the Öjakt programme was quietly abandoned and the sole J22V was reduced to spares for its landflygplan bretheren.

(Bottom) Prototype FFVS J22V (white stripe on float pylon indicates new crew mounting steps. Note that this aircraft has note yet been fitted with its radio antenna.

____________________________________

[1] The Ilmavoimat J22E purchase was made necessary by difficulties with the domestic fighter programme - the VL Myrsky. After brief use with fighter squadrons, the surviving J22s were re-equipped for the fighter-reconnaissance role.

[2] Initially, it was planned that the float fighter would have a larger range due to added fuel tanks. Later, to lower all-up weight it was decided to eliminate the land-fighter's fuselage tank and rely entirely upon the two fuel tanks within the main float.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1952 on: December 08, 2018, 07:01:23 AM »
Love the floatplane version :smiley:
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1953 on: December 08, 2018, 07:01:50 AM »
For sure, maybe doped silver to match the B17s ... or desert camo?

Your choice.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1954 on: December 08, 2018, 07:04:57 AM »
For sure, maybe doped silver to match the B17s ... or desert camo?

Your choice.

Well, it'll have to be both then  >:D
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1955 on: December 08, 2018, 07:08:08 AM »
 ;D
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Offline ericr

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1956 on: December 08, 2018, 01:55:13 PM »

nice floatplane

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1957 on: December 08, 2018, 11:18:55 PM »
I like the J23's more than the J22's but they're both good looking little aircraft. :smiley:

I really like the H.P 75, too, except for the nose glazing. It looks a bit wrong. To me, it lacks that certain "Britishness" I would expect from a Handley Page bomber.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1958 on: December 09, 2018, 08:27:38 AM »
Love the floatplane version :smiley:

Oh yes!!!  :-*

The only thing that would be better than floats are of course, spats.

 :-* :-* :-*

Great stuff! I'll be in my bunk if you need me....

Brian da Basher

Offline AXOR

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1959 on: December 10, 2018, 03:52:55 AM »
Definitely the float version is impressive,I like the subject...nicely done !
Alex

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1960 on: December 11, 2018, 07:18:41 AM »
Thanks folks. And, Brian, don't think I wasn't tempted by a spatted J22  ;)
____________________

The post-WW2 Imperial Ethiopian Air Force (Ye Ithopya Ayer Hayl) was founded with Swedish assistance. The first postwar Ethiopian ye’asashi awiropilani (fighter aircraft) was the Swedish-designed FFVS J22BE [1] selected by the head of the Swedish air delegation, Count Carl Gustaf von Rosen. All Ethiopian fighters were ex-Flygvapnet aircraft fitted with some Ethiopian-requested equipment - most notable the armament of four US 50-calibre Browning machine guns. [2]

(Top) FFVS J22BE of the YIAH's first fighter flight based at Bole airfield, Addis Ababa. This aircraft has its original Flygvapnet camouflage overpainted with a 'desert blotch' scheme. [3] On the forward fuselage is the Lion of Judah emblem (perhaps the personal marking of the Flight Leader?).

(Bottom) FFVS J22BE of the YIAH's second fighter flight based at Bishoftu airfield. Part of the second batch, this replacement J22BE is covered in silver dope to better match the natural metal finish of the YIAH's Saab B17 attack bombers.
____________________

[1] A variation on the original Flygvapnet J22B designation is used with 'E' for Etiopien added.

[2] In Swedish service, the J22Bs were armed with four similar FN-Browning guns chambered for 13.2mm ammunition.

[3] Inspired by the camouflage patterns on Flygvapnet Reggiane Re-2000 fighters, the Italian origins of the initial J22BE scheme was not appreciated by authorities in Addis Ababa.
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1961 on: December 11, 2018, 07:20:24 AM »
The FFVS J22 was always intended as a 'fill-in' fighter until the arrival of the Flygvapnet's preferred Saab J21 twin-boomed pusher-prop fighter. FFVS designer Bo Lundberg draughted the J22 so that the aircraft could be comparatively easily converted to a 2-seat trainer configuration. [1] The difficulty faced was in relocating the main fuselage fuel tank ... a conundrum not tackled until after the end of WW2.

As the Saab J21 fighter began to arrive in numbers, Lundberg once again proposed the conversion of Flygvapnet J22s as 2-seat trainers. Initially, FMV officials in Stockholm were lukewarm on the concept. Their priority was the soonest possible replacement for the remaining imported J 20 (Reggiane Re-2000) fighters. It was also believed that the J22 could readily be converted into camera-equipped reconnaissance fighters - which subsequently happened with the 1947 S22C conversions.

In the meantime, an FFVS design team under Bo Lundberg refined their 2-seat trainer conversion concept. This was finally realized with a privately-funded J22A conversion which was designated P22D for Flygvapnet trials. [2] This aircraft demonstrated Lundberg's solution to relocating the fuselage fuel tank to twin underwing 'pods'. The new tanks resembled the 'drop tanks' which had become common during the war but these were fixed installations. [3]

African Genesis - a Two-Seat J22 Conversion in Ethiopia

In the meantime, a 2-seat trainer conversion of the J22 fighter had been completed elsewhere as an expedient field modification. In East Africa, a Swedish advisory team under Count von Rosen was helping to establish the new Imperial Ethiopian Air Force (Ye Ithopya Ayer Hayl of YIAH). Although now seen as a modest performer in Europe, in YIAH service, the FFVS J22BE was viewed as a 'hot ship' and the attrition rate was fairly high. Accordingly, von Rosen's assistant, Colonel Ingvar Berg organized the conversion of a J22BE with a faulty main fuselage fuel tank.

This aircraft was fitted with a second cockpit, open on top with Perspex side-flaps to ease egress and exit. The landing gear was fixed in the 'down' position and the former main undercarriage bay was filled with bag tanks for fuel. Unfortunately, these bag tanks were too small, severely reducing the aircraft's range. Plans were made to bulge the belly panels to allow a larger tank to be installed but this was never carried out. At an early stage, the trainer's spinner was removed to improve engine cooling. The spinnerless airscrew, fixed landing gear, and restricted range all contributed to reducing the aircraft's usefulness as an advanced trainer.

Seconded Flygvapnet ground crews undertook the conversion of the 'Etiopien skolflyg' during the wet season of 1948. The 'J22BE-Sk' was intended as a familiarization trainer but was comparatively short-lived. The aircraft was mainly employed as a transport 'hack' shuttling Haile Selassie's liaison officer back-and-forth between Addis and Bishoftu airfield. [5] This liaison officer, Col Assefa Ayene, made every attempt to thwart von Rosen's efforts. So, few tears were shed among the Swedish contingent when Ayene was lost when 'his' J22BE-Sk crashed in to a taxiing Dakota while landing in the dark at Bole field in Addis Ababa.

The Flygvapnet Get its Two-Seat Trainers

In early 1947, the FMV agreed to a trial batch of Sk22D trainers - as the 2-seater conversions were now designated. [4] FFVS began the ten requested trainer conversions after its S22C work was finished. The final Sk22D conversions was completed and delivered to the Flygvapnet by March of 1948. These aircraft were fitted with entirely new cockpit canopies - the front operating like the original, the rear canopy sliding aft to give the instructor a better view while landing and taxiing.

Lundberg also planned for an armaments training version which would retain two of the smaller-calibre wing guns from the J22A. This was never pursued by the FMV and the Flygvapnet only operated the unarmed Sk22D trainers until 1952 when all FFVS aircraft were phased out of service. In the end, the Flygvapnet concluded that its Sk14 (North American/Saab NA 16) was entirely adequate for the advanced training role. Rather than continue with the Sk22D, FMV chose to procure more readily-available, war-surplus versions of the NA 16 type. Some 143 Noorduyn-built Harvards had began entering Flygvapnet service as the Sk16A in 1947. The Sk22D trainers were replaced in 1952 with further NA 16s - Texans and SNJs - purchased from the US.

____________________

[1] The convertable single- or two-seater configuration may have been inspired by prewar Seversky designs - which Lundberg's was exposed to in his role of head of the Swedish Air Commission in the USA.

[2] This designation retained the type number in the J22 series with a new sub-type suffix. The Flygvapnet's 'P' for Provflygplan (Trials Aircraft) replaced the 'J' for Jakt designator.

[3] Unfamiliar with 'drop tank' operations, Flygvapnet insisted that skids be mounted on the undersides of the wing pods ... something of throw-back to the anti-ground loops skids of some WW1 aircraft.

[4] With the concept now proven, the 'P' for Provflygplan designator gave way to a 'Sk' for Skolflygplan (School Aircraft) prefix applied to Flygvapnet trainers.

[5] The Emperor was Supreme Commander of the YIAH. His liaison, Col Ayene, was an Imperial Guard officer.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1962 on: December 12, 2018, 01:46:21 AM »


The mention of the J21makes me wonder how one would go shoehorning a DB605 into the J22....
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1963 on: December 12, 2018, 06:44:18 AM »
The mention of the J21makes me wonder how one would go shoehorning a DB605 into the J22....

I was wonder the same. Probably need to move the cockpit waaay back. Hmmm ...

Meanwhile, back to Handley page ...

Laminar-Flow Wing 'Super Halifax' - The Handley Page H.P.65

Jon's drawings allowed a bash at the H.P.65 'Super Halibag', an unbuilt Handley Page project meant to give a renewed life to the firm's Halifax heavy bomber...

Those H.P. drawings show plenty of detail for the turbo-superchargers for the Bristol Hercules 38 radials and the new, twin-wheeled main undercarriage units. [1] There's rather less detail on defensive armaments. The nose gun looks pretty much like that of the Halifax as does the tail turret ... except that the later seems to have only two guns. Based on the tail turret's appearance, I've assumed it to be a twin 0.5-inch derivative of the Boulton Paul Type E.

The mid-upper turret is another barrel of fish. It is a curious, half-hemisphere affair armed with twin large-calibre guns. It looks nothing like the Martin 250 CE turrets imported for the Avro Lancaster B.Mk.VII nor the Bristol B.17 built for the Avro Lincoln ... both which had flat-ish tops. But its armament does suggest the B.17's twin 20 mm British Hispano cannons.

(Top) First prototype Handley Page H.P.65 Hendon showing off its new, twin-wheel main undercarriage and four-bladed props. Note 0.303-inch nose gun and the by-then-obsolete ARI 5664 'Monica' rear-warning antenna beneath tail turret.

The H.P.65's bulged bomb bays resulted in a 'kinked' lower fuselage line which provided a natural spot for belly protection. But of what sort? Who knows, so I've left that space blank. That 'kink' creates a quandry for the H2S radar scanner position, though. It won't fit on the rear belly anymore ... so I've plopped it in under the cockpit.

(Bottom) Operational Handley Page Hendon B.Mk.IA of No.466 Squadron, RAAF after the unit re-deployed back to Australia. [2] Note SEAC markings, forward-mounted H2S radome, and 0.5-inch nose gun. The B.Mk.IA introduced the  AGL(T) or Automatic Gun-Laying Turret code-named 'Village Inn'.

________________________________________

[1] In the 3-view drawing, the Hercules 38s look a little underscale to my eyes but I left them as originally rendered.

[2] Since a re-deployed No.466 would no longer be a part of No.4 Group, I've left off that Group's tail recognition markings of three horizontal yellow stripes (as worn by No.466 Halifaxs in Europe).
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1964 on: December 12, 2018, 11:01:32 AM »
A ball turret would go in there quite nicely, I think.

Maybe not quite the same coverage as on the B-17 but still pretty good.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1965 on: December 13, 2018, 08:38:56 AM »
Those look great and I really like that new tail turret!

Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1966 on: December 14, 2018, 03:07:41 AM »
Looking at the turrets on those last ones, would I be correct in assuming these are the same type:




This could also be an interesting development:


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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1967 on: December 16, 2018, 06:25:40 AM »
HP 65 upper turret B-P Type T, tail turret B-P Type D
as used on late Halifax.

The S and T turrets were intended to be produced in the US,
one T prototype was tested on Halifax R9436 in 1942.

The tail turret in Greg's photo is a Type D with the Airborne
Gun Laying for Turrets (AGLT) radar system.
Code name "Village Inn".
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 07:53:28 AM by jcf »
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1968 on: December 16, 2018, 06:56:22 AM »
Thanks folks!

This could also be an interesting development:

Indeed it could! Although of smaller calibre, that was kind of the vibe I was going for with the original 'Skinny' Halifax. Amazing to see that the trials aircraft retained its original No.221 Squadron codes!

Jon: Fascinating as always! So, the H.P.65 tail turret was just a more-or-less standard Type D but armed with twin 0.5-inch guns? I'd never heard of either the Type S or Type T. Any idea who in the US was to build 'em?

Another turret-y question: Does anyone have any info on the 15 mm turret guns planned by Vickers? Was the cartridge related to anything else? ... 15 mm Besa cartridge? Necked-down pre-war Vickers .661-inch (16.8 mm) anti-aircraft cartridge?
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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1969 on: December 16, 2018, 07:50:55 AM »
All D turret were twin .50.
The S was a tail turret, I have no info on who in the
US was to be the manufacturer.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1970 on: December 16, 2018, 08:54:37 AM »




This turbo exhaust arrangement was used for real on the Wellington Mk.V high altitude. Maybe I could make some castings of what I've done for the Mk.V I have on the go

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1971 on: December 17, 2018, 01:37:37 AM »
All D turret were twin .50.
The S was a tail turret, I have no info on who in the
US was to be the manufacturer.

According to 'the bible' (see below), the BP Type S was actually a modified BP Type E with twin 0.5s.  Although it was taken to the US for potential building, there is no record of anyone doing so, though there are also comments that Sperry adopted one of the features.

The manned Mid upper turret I showed was actually a BP Type H.  This was to be armed with twin 20 mm (0.78 in) Hispanos or 2 x 15mm (0.59 in) cannon of a type developed by Vickers at Crayford. The Vickers guns did not materialise, however, and the 1st prototype was a Test-firing mock-up with 20 mm (0.78 in) Hispano guns (as shown in pic above).  Here are some other images of it:


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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1972 on: December 18, 2018, 06:39:23 AM »
Great stuff. Thanks guys! I like the sounds of that 15mm but it sounds like Vickers were over-extended.
_____________________________

The J22DB was Flygförvaltningens Verkstad i Stockholm's 'least-mod' attempt at a DB 605A-powered derivative of the FFVS J22 fighter. Other than the engine installation, the major modification was an extended tail section (with aftward relocated tail wheel). The tail mod was deemed necessary to restore the c/g while improving controllability. Concerns over c/g remained after FMV insisted upon moving the engine coolant radiator from a planned rear-fuselage 'bath' to an under-nose position. [1]

Two production variants of the Daimler-engined fighter were envisioned: the J22F (known as the J22DB-1 to FFVS) with German-supplied guns; and two versions of the J22G (J22DB-3 to FFVS) with Swedish armament. [2] The J22G-1 interceptor (J22DB-3T to FFVS) was to have a 20 mm Bofors m/45 motor-cannon and two 13.2 mm Ericsson akan m/39A (licensed FN-Browning) wing-mounted machine guns. The J22G-2 close-support aircraft (J22DB-3SJ to FFVS) was to have the 20 mm m/45 and four 13.2 mm wing guns. [3]

The proposed J22DB (for 'Daimler Benz') proceeded no further than a mockup engine installation. The illustration shows the final fin/rudder and tail wheel positions although these were not exhibited on the mockup shown to officials from the FMV and Flygvapnet at Stockholm in late 1944. Although far from complete, J22DB development ended by the end of the year when Germany offered Sweden surplus Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6s as alternative interim fighters.

The German fighters were delivered by air in early 1945 but these aircraft lacked essential operational equipment held back by the Germans. These fighters were also completely stripped of Luftwaffe camouflage and refinished in a new, overall pale grey scheme. [4] Flygvapnet service entry - as the Messerschmitt J24 - was delayed as the fleet was repainted and equipped with Swedish radios plus other required kit. [5] The J24 finally entered Flygvapnet service just as the European war ended.

Shortly after the war, Sweden arranged with the Czechs to supply certain Messerschmitt parts not readily available from European scrapyards. This arrangement resulted in a visual change for the fleet. As the J24B, Swedish 'Gustavs' substituted Czech-made sliding canopies as used on the Avia S-199 version. Illustrated is a postwar trials aircraft - hence the 'Svart Xerxes' or 'Black X' tail marking - with a more aerodynamic experimental canopy. This one-off J24C has a Luftwaffe belly rack mounted - which was usual for J24s The hökens öga ('hawk's eye') on the gun bulges was a fleet-wide marking. [6]

Swedish Messerschmitt J24s were replaced in Flygvapnet service by vastly superior North American J26 Mustang fighters in 1947.

___________________________________

[1] FMV staff were convinced that operating the J22's main undercarriage doors would interfere with airflow into any radiator mounted under the rear fuselage.

[2] Rejected was an FFVS proposed for a J22DB-2 interceptor with an SFA-built DB 605B. This engine lacked the facility for either a motor cannon or synchronization gear for cowl-mounted guns. J22DB-2 armament was to consist solely of four, wing-mounted 13.2 mm guns as per the radial-engined J22-2 (known as the J22B to the Flyvapnet).

[3] Other armament options discussed were cowl-mounted Ericsson akan m/39As in place of the German MG131s; matching the German MG151/20 engine gun with Swedish wing guns; mounting five m/39As (including as an engine gun); and three 20 mm Bofors m/45s - one firing through the propeller hub and two mounting in underwing pods.

[4] Previous attempts to refinish Flygvapnet aircraft in overall silver proven unsuccessful as the dope used showed wear very quickly.

[5] The RW Saab-24 was a twin-engined multi-purpose aircraft proposal dubbed "Den Svenska Mosquiton". Somewhat resembling a trike-geared Messerschmitt Bf 110, the Saab-24 was to have been powered by twin DB 605B engines. The Saab-24 project only reached the wind tunnel model stage.

[6] The hökens öga was adopted after a similar, personal marking was found to reduce bird strikes. Ironically, this J24C trials aircraft was lost into the Baltic Sea after a bird strike to its prototype windscreen.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1973 on: December 18, 2018, 07:21:01 AM »
I like the eyeball.  ;D

That canopy is a natural on a 109 as well.

Most excellent, apophenia!

Brian da Basher

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #1974 on: December 18, 2018, 09:03:01 AM »
I like the eyeball.  ;D

That canopy is a natural on a 109 as well.

Most excellent, apophenia!

Brian da Basher

Agree entirely! :smiley: 8)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."