Author Topic: The FAA go American  (Read 19175 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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The FAA go American
« on: July 22, 2013, 01:41:27 AM »
Okay, I'm in. I'm going with the "UK goes American early" idea that I explored in the ideas thread. The basic idea is that the UK government gets an early attack of realism just after WWII and decides to stop trying to do everything while it can still do so gracefully, rather than waiting for a rude shock to knock it off it's imperial perch.

One of the tough decisions is to cut all funding for jet carrier aircraft development, since the prediction is that RN carrier numbers will shrink sharply in the future, and there'll be nearly no export market to pay for them. The FAA are happy to go along with this, since they've been dependent of US aircraft for most of the war anyway. The aircraft selected is the Grumman F-9 Panther, since it can be built under licence in the UK with a British-built RR Nene and other UK components to soften the blow. The UK contractor is Gloster, since they've just lost the RAF night-fighter contract to the DH.110.....

I've got a boxless Hasegawa Panther with knackered decals that's therefore an ideal donor. Colour scheme will be high-demarcation EDSG over Sky, like an early Seahawk. The decal sheet was stuck to the instructions and is pretty much scrap as you can see. Unfortunately, the Hase kit relies on decals for it's instrument panel, but I think they might just be okay: if not, I'll have to get an etch set... ::)
I've got plenty of Seahawks to donate the rest of the decals.



I'm not going to get fancy with modifications on this one: the basic idea is to get something finished! The only thing I definately want to do is give it British-style 3" RPs rather than the US 5" ones that come with the kit. If I can get the build done quickly enough, I might do an FAA Grumman Tiger in the later Low Demarcation EDSG-over-white scheme as well: they can share the EDSG spraying!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 02:57:30 AM by Weaver »
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 02:38:06 AM »
Good idea!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 06:57:13 PM »
 ;D

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 03:57:12 AM »
It'll look aces in FAA colors!

Watching with interest,
Brian da Basher

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 07:12:47 PM »
Cheers folks!

Not much to show so far: just painting little bits and pieces. The cockpit decals worked, which is a relief.

I hate this phase: you've got all fired up to build a distinctive shape or colour of plane, then you have to get bogged down in making a fiddly little cockpit that looks exactly like every other cockpit.... ???
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 07:15:05 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2013, 09:04:29 AM »
Argggh! How does the saying go? Assumption is the mother of all **** ups?

I assumed I could nick rockets and decals for the Panther from my collection of SIX Seahawk kits. Well so far the score is:

2 x Airfix kits: no rockets, yellowed/cracked decals
2 x Novo kits: no rockets, yellowed/cracked/rubbish decals
2 x Hobbyboss kits: nice rockets, but only got Indian and German markings......

So I'm now shopping for an aftermarket FAA decal sheet...... :-[
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2013, 06:43:53 AM »
Oooh, this is going so well..... not. :icon_punal:

Test-fitted all the bits to the fuselage halves - fine. Put glue on the fuselage halves, and the cokpit tub immediately refused to align properly. Eventually had to pull the front half apart to get it to sit on it's ledges properly, and then the business of getting glue back into a nearly closed seam has resulted in a gluey mess and fingerprints on the outside worthy of a 7 year old.... Luckily, there arn't many panel lines on the bottom of the nose, so sanding it back to presentable shouldn't be too much pain.

On the decals front, it looks like the only sheets on the market would leave me with LOTS of spare decals that I'd probably never use for LOTS of money: it's looking like the best option will be to go and buy an entire new Airfix Sea Hawk just to get the decal sheet..... ::)

EDIT : yay, got my rockets! I could have used the ones from the Hobbyboss kit, but they're only single layer, and I really wanted the stacked ones that I'd seen in some Sea Hawk pics. I just noticed a pic of a Frog/Novo Sea Venom on the web, and it had two pairs of exactly the rockets I wanted, and I remembered that I've got at least two of those kits, but I hadn't looked at them for rockets because they're night-fighters.... :-[

Anyway, dug them out and they're spot on.  :)


« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 07:03:02 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 07:27:58 AM »
Weaver, check your PMs RE decals  ;)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 06:51:08 AM »
Okay, about enough progress for a pic. Fuselage is together with only minor trauma and the nose is on (and yes, it's full of weights). I've just had to do an intricate little scribing job to get the mounting holes for the British 3" RPs right as you can see. The exisiting holes were useful for estabishing the sideways spacing, but the fore-and-aft spacing had to be changed because the 3" mountings are far enough apart to intrude onto the leading edge fairing and that meant they had to be staggered to follow it's slight sweep, rather than all being in a line. The result, with two RPs on each of eight positions, should look pretty good.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 09:05:40 AM »
And surprisingly shortly thereafter:



Have to say, you can slag off Hasegawa for high pricing 'til the cows come home with my blessing, but I am seriously impressed with the way this old kit fits together. I've built the Polish TS-11 Iskra kit, which is basically the same configuration, and I was dreading how much fettling and putty the wing/intake/fuselage junction was going to take, but it needed exactly none. Some of the joints between the intakes and the wings are indistinguishable from the scribed panel lines: I've seen Lego that didn't fit together as well.

 :) :) :)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Damian

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 09:43:16 AM »
Looking good so far!
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 10:03:14 AM »
Hey man, what scale is this?  Looks like the 1/72 kit to me (have one in the stash) but I can't tell.

She's looking great man!  The Brit 3" RPs are a very nice touch   8)  Can't wait to see her in her war paint!
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »
Cheers Cliffy: it's 1/72nd.

(Those'd be damned big Humbrol pots if it was 1/48th.... ;D :))
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2013, 10:20:30 AM »
(Those'd be damned big Humbrol pots if it was 1/48th.... ;D :))

So they are! Honestly I didn't even see them....  ;D
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2013, 06:48:16 PM »
Y'know Comrade, this is the sort of thing that can make you seriously reconsider your philosophical commitment to Marxist-Leninism....



 >:D >:D >:D
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2013, 11:40:23 PM »
Well it's in the paint shop. First coat of primer reveals that the fit isn't quite as perfect as I first thought. I suppose that's a penalty of dark-coloured plastic: you can't see the shadows of imperfect joints so well... ???

Decals are getting trickier. I was about to buy the Xtradecal "13 Sea Hawks" set, when I noticed something significant: the Panther is a less generous canvas than the Sea Hawk. The problem is this: the Sea Hawk has room for two large "things" ahead of the wing and two behind it, the usual arrangement being buzz number and a big squadron badge at the front, roundel and "ROYAL NAVY" at the back. On the Panther however, the rear fuselage is cut back and the wing root fairing extends nearly to the back of what's left, so the only thing that can go in that area is really the "ROYAL NAVY" lettering. The roundel will have to go in front of the wing and the buzz number can't be lost, so that leaves no room for the squadron badge.

You can see the roundel migrate forwards on real FAA aircraft (Scimitar, Sea Vixen, Buccaneer), but all of those have unobstructed fins, so the squadron badge moves there and often changes shape to match. However, you can't do this on the Panther, because it's tailplane is halfway up the fin, just like the Sea Hawk, and so effectively cuts it in half. There's just room for the serial below it and the ship/base letter above it.

Two things might save the day:

1. One thing the Panther does have that the Sea Hawk doesn't is a triangular area of fin in front of the tailplanes, so it might be possible to put some of the smaller unit badges there.

2. The "ROYAL NAVY" lettering appears to have varied in size quite a bit, so by only choosing the smaller ones, it might be possible to make room for the squadron badge on the front of the tail (see above), either by having the lettering in the same place OR by putting it on the tip tank. The latter might seem a radical move, but the tip tanks on the Panther were non-jettisonable, so they're as much a part of the airframe as anything else. The only aircraft with tip tanks that the FAA has ever actually operated is the Sea Venom, and since that had it's booms available for the lettering, the issue never arose.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2013, 11:58:16 PM »
I think paint-wise, that I'm going to treat it more like an Attacker/Sea Fury than a Sea Hawk, that is to say, the EDSG panel on the top of the fuselage won't touch the top of the wing, rather it'll end relatively short on the nose, but it will go up the leading edge of the fin.

Although the Panther look superficially similar to the Sea Hawk, it's wing is much lower, so if you try to "dip" the demarcation line down to the leading edge, Sea Hawk style, it's more conspicuous and awkward. It then gets even more awkward trying to "undip" it from the trailing edge, because the latter is almost underneath the fin, so the "curve" is pretty near vertical.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 04:37:35 AM »
Bugger - just screwed up the windscreen... >:D >:D >:D

It's got a WWII style oval bulletproof glass section, and I tried to cut a masking tape mask for it. Unfortunately, my line is well inside the proper frame line and too deep to polish out...

Oh well, Falcon Vac-form set here I come: I was going to have to get one anyway to make my Skynight buildable, so it's just a case of buying it early really, but you know what's REALLY annoying? The last thing I did before starting on the canopy was place an order with Hannants for the decals. So now I've just placed another order a hour later for the canopies: two lots of postage... :icon_crap:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:02:52 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 07:41:57 PM »
Now here's an interesting drawing from the Wiki page:



There appear to be two folded heights on that, 17'10" and 16'11", and in the side view that shows them, the tip tanks arn't on (which is wierd because they wern't detachable). The lower height appear to be achieved by having the main gear compressed, so my question is, was that a state the aircraft could be left in, or was it something that was only done just before launch?

Why do I care? Because the tallest RN hangers were 17'6": my FAA Panther might need a Gannet-style double-wing fold...... ???
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 07:43:55 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2013, 02:26:59 AM »
I'm not sure about the discrepancy between the two heights given but a possible solution would be to install/modify a set of locks in the wing fold mechanism that limits them to just under the RN hangar height.  Wings won't go as high and you won't be able to cram as many birds in but it would be a simply solution and one that I think they would be sure to make.  A different sort of fold mechanism would be something they'd address in a later variant.  Also, I'm unaware of any early jets or jets at all for that matter that have multiple folds in them.  Might have something to do with higher speeds/wing loads but that's just a guess.  Something to think about either way  :)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline finsrin

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2013, 03:08:16 AM »
Been enjoying this thread with premiss and build.
Keep building and posting.  Look forward to seeing more  :)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2013, 07:18:33 AM »
Or you could just factor in the loan of a couple of Essex class carriers covering the gap between the retirement of the smaller war built carriers an the new generation of larger fast jet carriers that can be afforded following the decision to buy US carrier  aircraft instead of developing their own.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 09:47:03 AM by Volkodav »

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2013, 08:47:09 AM »

It's got a WWII style oval bulletproof glass section, and I tried to cut a masking tape mask for it. Unfortunately, my line is well inside the proper frame line and too deep to polish out...


"... and they fitted a small number of examples of the RN Panthers with a smaller, oval, tinted glare panel on outside of the forward canopy"
Sure I read that somewhere in the RN Panther history ;D ;D

Really liike where this is going and the grounding behind your selections.
Great job.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2013, 09:28:03 AM »
Cheers Folks!

The problem with reducing the height by reducing the amount of fold, at the cost of hangar capacity, was that the very carriers that had the tallest 17'6" hangars were also the smallest ones, i.e. the Colossus class light carriers. The Illustrious class "fleet" carriers had various combinations of hangars with heights of 14' to 16' and generally got worse the the later they were (i.e. the last two had 2 x full-length 14' hangars each). Nothing else would be available in time for Korea, precisely because they were being madly re-designed/rebuilt to incorporate tall hangars, angled decks, steam catapults etc...

This was a peculiar bind that the RN found themselves in post-war. With no money for completely new carriers, they decided to redesign the two half-built Eagles and three of the four half-built Centaurs, which delayed their completion, completely rebuild the Illustrious class, starting with Victorious, to "save money", and sell off the barely-started Majestics to raise cash, thus leaving them with nothing but the Collossus class for "a few years" after the war. This plan went pear-shaped because the Eagles' re-re-re-designs delayed them repeatedly, and the Victorious rebuild turned into a nightmare of unexpected problems, redesigns and spiralling costs that left her out of service until 1958 and costing as much as a better new carrier, which in turn caused the cancellation of all the other rebuilds.

My idea for the "realistic" post-war RN is that they abandon big-carrier aviation early. They keep as many Colossus class as possible in service as actual carriers by using later Invincibles as depot/repair ships instead, abandon the re-builds and the Eagles and put all their money into finishing the Majestics and Centaurs. They then KEEP the Majestics, selling off the Colossus hulls as the later carriers come into service.

A loan/sale of Essex Class carriers to the RN was discussed several times, even as late as the late 1970s, but was always rejected for one reason or another. "Cost of re-fitting to RN standards and procedures" gets mentioned a lot, although that might just be RN snottiness rather than a genuine show-stopper.... However I'm not sure it was on the cards in the early 1950s, since the USN was using them pretty heavily and was also comitted to Korea themselves. It's worth looking into though.

A Royal Navy Essex could be re-named HMS Chelmsford (county town of Essex)..... ;D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:31:40 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2013, 08:15:32 PM »
My thinking was that the Korean War could have been a trigger for the UK to lease an Essex and air group from the US to replace the CVL deployed in reality (the RAN could follow this example instead of deploying HMAS Sydney for another tour).  The success of the Essex lease leads the RN to lease additional hulls while selling, transferring or scrapping most of their existing carriers, there were no attempts to modernise or upgrade existing ships or to design new aircraft, rather all investment was channelled into designing and building new fleet carriers to operate modern, high performance US aircraft.

There were five Essex class carriers that were never modernised and were retired prior to 1960, there were another two that were never completed, these ships could have been suitable for the UK.

Love the look of many of the 1950s RN FAA aircraft but acknowledge that long development cycles and the limitations the existing UK carriers as well as lack of funding saw them pretty much behind the curve when compared to USN aircraft.

Offline Weaver

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  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2013, 10:40:17 PM »
But my impression is that there were no Essex class carriers "spare" once the Korean war had started: all the ones that were in reserve seem to have been quickly re-commissioned and put into service. The only exceptions seem to have been the two unfinished ones (how finished were they? were they still hanging around in 1950?) and two that were so badly damaged in WWII that they never recomissioned post-war. The question with the latter two wolud be whether the damage was so bad that they were physically not worth re-building or whether it was just that the USN had so many others that it wasn't worth it for them (but might have been for the RN?).

An Essex was more the size of an Illustrious than a Colossus, so it would be more suitable as a replacement for the former than the latter. Indeed the latter would complement it quite well (as they were designed to do, of course).

BTW, the Aussies were offered an Essex in, I think, the early 1970s, and rejected it for the same reason as the RN did, namely that re-fitting it to work with their mostly UK-built fleet would take too long and cost too much, so maybe there was some substance in the RN's objections after all.....

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2013, 06:40:13 AM »
Decals arrived today: I went for the Xtradecal 13 x Sea Hawks one in the end. They'll certainly cover a Panther and a Cougar and a little jiggery pokery with serial numbers should make them stretch to a Tiger.

The vac-form canopy set from Falcon arrived too - gulp..... :icon_crap:

Looking around Falcon's website, I noticed that they do a conversion set for three two-seaters: a TF-9J Cougar, an F-106B and a Mirage IIIT. It strikes me that the TF-9J conversion should also fit on a Panther, thus making a highly credible whiff. There's also markings on the Sea Hawks decal sheet for an FAA "Red Devils" display team aircraft that would look mighty fine on a two-hole Panther or Cougar, and although the conversion set's expensive, I looooove F-106Bs too......

(Do you detect an element of talking myself into it here?)

(and I just won an F-106 on ebay.....)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 06:46:42 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 02:45:46 AM »
Mirage IIIT ?? ???
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2013, 11:29:55 PM »
Okay some progress. We now have a coat of Sky:





I could have spent more time getting the joints perfect but time is marching on, since I'm away for 1 weekend in August.

The paint was traumatic as always. The white undercoat showed that the fit wasn't as good as I first thought (dark plastic hides a lot!) and I had to do a fair bit of sanding back to the blue. For some reason, the subsequent (rattle can) re-undercoating wasn't as opaque as the first one, so the freshly sanded areas still looked darker. No problem, I though, the Sky will even it all out, I mean, it's darker than white, right?  Uh huh - took four coats of Sky to get an even overall colour... ???

Rockets have been sprayed black and I'm currently working my way through painting all the brackets and warheads aluminium. The idea, based on some pics I found on the web, is that the rocket motors have come courtesy of the RH and have been stored immaculately in a warehouse, but the warheads have come from RAF stocks in the middle east where they've been stacked outside and have all gone from green to rust from top to bottom....
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2013, 11:38:03 PM »
She's looking good man!!!  Its always a #$%$#^$^ trying to get light colors to coat...  I've been in arctic spree lately and have been painting ships white and pale blue for awhile.  The white.... :icon_zombie: 

I DID find it a bit easier to put on after I added a tiny bit of light blue to the bottle.  I did it after reading about how to get your white models to not yellow over time.  I had a full bottle of MM White acrylic and added about 40 drops of Azure Blue with a toothpick and then mixed thoroughly.  Bottle now has a very slight blueish tint to it but I think it works.

Nice touch with the RPs.  That will add some character for sure man  8)
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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 07:52:47 AM »
Moving along fine.

Must say I am really looking forward to seeing this in these colours

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2013, 09:57:46 AM »
Okay, it's masked up for the EDSG, but since it's now 2.49am here, the only thing I'm going upstairs for shortly is sleep, not paint spraying...

The tip tanks were a dilemma, i.e. how to deal with the EDSG/Sky demarcation line?. The only FAA aircraft to have tip tanks were Sea Venoms, and since they were desperately short of fuselage space for squadron badges, they usually painted the tanks in squadron colours, typically chequerboards or stripes. On the few pics I could find where they wern't stripy/squarey, they're all-Sky, which looks rubbish even if it's genuine. In the end I went for the pragmatic solution of top half EDSG, bottom half sky, on the grounds that a) it'll probably look right and b) it puts the colour demarcation right on the dodgy seam lines on the model, thereby helping to hide the latter... ;)

Demarcation-wise, I've kept the fuselage line totally separate from the wing roots, i.e. more like an Attacker than a Sea Hawk. The bit of Sky between the fuselage line and the wing root is still narrow-enough that I had to use 3mm non-Tamiya tape on it, as well as on the curvy bits of the line since it bends better.

Just rememberd that I havn't masked up the tailplanes... ::) Oh well, at least that's not hard....
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2013, 07:03:56 AM »
Well the EDSG is on and the masking tape is off and I'm not crying.... :)

There are a few glitches where one piece of tape met another and a few where either the tape lifted or it never fully covered the sky, but they're all fixable.

What isn't fixable is that my photobucket account has gone over it's monthly bandwidth limit again, so I can't post pictures until it resets, which will be before the end of the GB (I checked... ;) ???)
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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2013, 07:34:51 AM »
If you like you can either upload photos to the forum or simply email them to me and I will post them.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2013, 10:29:07 AM »
Ah - well I haven't actually taken them.....

Trying the fix the glitches in the paint is turning into a bit of a pig... :( Before long, there'll be so much brush-painting on it that I might as well have not bothered airbrushing it...... ::)

The trouble is that paint out of the pot, brushed on, is not exactly the same colour as the airbrushed paint, so I'm having to thin/lighten the sky by trial and error to see what works. Think the sky is acceptable now (but it depends on what light's on it), but now the EDSG needs more various touch-ups...   

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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2013, 08:14:01 AM »
Well the EDSG touch-up has turned into a nightmare.... :icon_punal:

I thinned the brushed EDSG a little to get it to run and "smooth out" so that it didn't look too lumpy compared to the airbrushed EDSG. When it dried, however, it was lighter than the airbrushed EDSG.... It's as if the thinned brushed paint "lifted" the airbrushed coat underneath it, allowing more Sky to show through.

So tonight, I went over those areas again with much less thinned EDSG, and it STILL came out lighter. So I've gone over it again with un-thinned EDSG and it's STILL lighter..... :icon_twisted:

What's more, those areas are now seriously lumpy. I had to brush the whole wing-roots out to the wing fold to get some kind of blend, and the area around the cockpit now has more patch than original.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 08:16:19 AM by Weaver »
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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2013, 10:29:34 AM »
Bummer Weaver.

I have been in a similar situation. The way I get around it is to mask off an entire panel then paint that. If it comes up a different colour then it sort of looks ok as though the panel is a replacement or similar.


Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2013, 11:38:11 AM »
Good job I wasn't depending on getting a Cougar for this build: finally found one on Kingkit two weeks ago and ordered it, still not arrived, Kingkit confirm it was sent, no red slip through the door.... :icon_crap:
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2013, 09:25:29 PM »
Right, just tried a win-or-bust approach: sanded down the wings and brush-painted them with thinned paint and a wide flat brush as per one of the Humbrol videos.

It came out rubbish......  :(

It's FULL of brush-strokes, it was practically drying on the brush and it was impossible to paint smooth edge lines. In some cases the dried paint halfway down the wing was "dusty" before I'd finished the tip tank.

I'm convinced it's either the Revell paint and/or the thinner, or the combination of the two.

In any case, I'm now going to get some Humbrol 123 and thinner and try that. However, it may be too late for the Panther: it's now got so many layers of crappy paint on it that it really needs stripping back to the plastic...... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
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Offline LemonJello

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2013, 11:23:16 PM »
Hang in there! I had to strip an MV-22 down to the plastic while I was painting a MARPAT pattern on its topsides. The black was too thin and bled under the masking tape in several places.  Sometimes its just better to go back to square one and go from there. 

I'd agree with using a different paint/thinner combo, sounds like you've got a bad batch of one or the other messing things up for you.


Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2013, 06:58:15 AM »
How frustrating.
I had related issues with the Buccaneer build.. I spilled a cup load of thinner on the wing.. totally trashed the paint finish.
What I did was got some "robust" ordinary masking tape and taped the engine nacelles and undersides, which were still ok,
then throughly sanded back to bare plastic the entire wing and started again.

Another of those cases where different shade of paint in this sort of area does not look out of place.

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2013, 07:23:38 AM »
Well I've severely wet-sanded the EDSG back, and spot-sanded the Sky where it had rough repairs. Once it's had time for any water in nooks and crannies to evaporate, I'm going to brush paint the whole thing with Sky. I'm going to do the Sky across the sanded EDSG bits as well, since it should "unify" their tone a bit ready for when I brush-paint them.

Whatever this comes out like, that's how it's going to stay...... >:(
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2013, 04:46:33 AM »
Okay, I'm officially a convert to brush-painting with a flat brush, thinned paint, and decent paint and thinners. Now gone from this:



To this:



I'm painting the wing and fuselage EDSG separately to avoid an awkward masking job at the wing root.

The scheme's changed a bit as well. The original narrow EDSG stripe made the fuselage look even fatter and was a nonsense from above: that scheme was developed for piston-engined fighters with narrow, slab-sided fuselages, but it just doesn't work on a circular-section early jet fuselage. So I've made two changes:

1. The "fin swerve" is now fatter to mask the blended fin ahead of the tailplanes. I did actually find a profile of a Seahawk with a a scheme like this.

2. The fuselage stripe is much fatter. The sloping demarcation line is because if you have it level, it either cuts too close to the canopy sill or makes the fin swerve too deep. From above, it really works, and that's the main thing. FAA schemes had to adapt to the aircraft they got anyway: they never had to deal with tip tanks, twin booms and cruciform tails until the Sea Venom and Seahawk came along!

The real solution for FAA jets was, of course the low demarcation line, but the Panther scheme is a product of the transition phase.

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2013, 01:37:44 PM »
Nice!

:)

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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2013, 11:53:16 PM »
That's coming along very nicely, Weaver! Few things are easier on the eyes than the old FAA scheme!

Brian da Basher

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2013, 06:48:55 AM »
Okay and we're done with main paint:



Now leaving it well alone until tomorrow night so it cures properly before I put a coat of Klear on it.
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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2013, 08:12:46 AM »
That looks just mighty... great recovery.
It really just sort of.. you like.. fits ;)


Offline kim margosein

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2013, 08:13:34 AM »
Ya know, pretty much everything looks better in FAA camo.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2013, 08:45:35 AM »
Another aircraft with some very good what-if potential in this same theme would be the North American A-2 (AJ) Savage in FAA markings.  Especially with the nuclear mission that it was designed for.  Late FAA Savage S.2 with Red Beard in lieu of the American Mk4 nuclear bomb or Mk6 nuclear bomb
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 08:52:30 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2013, 10:09:59 AM »
Another aircraft with some very good what-if potential in this same theme would be the North American A-2 (AJ) Savage in FAA markings.  Especially with the nuclear mission that it was designed for.  Late FAA Savage S.2 with Red Beard in lieu of the American Mk4 nuclear bomb


It would certainly look good, but at 51,000 lb MTO and nearly 72 ft wingspan, it's a LOT of aircraft for the RN's little carriers. It would probably be just about doable though: S-2 trackers (72 ft span) operated from various Colossus class carriers, the smallest in post-war service. Weight-wise, only Ark Royal ever operated Phantoms, (although sister ship Eagle could have been re-fitted to do so) though I'm not sure if she could launch and recover them at their maximum theoretical weight (56,000 lb MTO). However carriers as small as the Centaurs operated 46,750 lb Sea Vixens, so you might imagine it possible to operate the Savage from them with modifications to the ships and/or reduced MTO for the aircraft.

However it's hard to see the Savage lasting long enough to get Red Beard: the latter only came into service in 1962, and by then in the real world Buccaneers were available to carry it. In my small-carrier RN whiff world, the Skyhawk would probably have ended up as the Red Beard carrier (it only weighed 1,750 lb comapred to the 10,000 lb of the Mk.4).
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2013, 11:08:28 AM »
Another aircraft with some very good what-if potential in this same theme would be the North American A-2 (AJ) Savage in FAA markings.  Especially with the nuclear mission that it was designed for.  Late FAA Savage S.2 with Red Beard in lieu of the American Mk4 nuclear bomb
It would certainly look good, but at 51,000 lb MTO and nearly 72 ft wingspan, it's a LOT of aircraft for the RN's little carriers. It would probably be just about doable though: S-2 trackers (72 ft span) operated from various Colossus class carriers, the smallest in post-war service. Weight-wise, only Ark Royal ever operated Phantoms, (although sister ship Eagle could have been re-fitted to do so) though I'm not sure if she could launch and recover them at their maximum theoretical weight (56,000 lb MTO). However carriers as small as the Centaurs operated 46,750 lb Sea Vixens, so you might imagine it possible to operate the Savage from them with modifications to the ships and/or reduced MTO for the aircraft.

However it's hard to see the Savage lasting long enough to get Red Beard: the latter only came into service in 1962, and by then in the real world Buccaneers were available to carry it. In my small-carrier RN whiff world, the Skyhawk would probably have ended up as the Red Beard carrier (it only weighed 1,750 lb comapred to the 10,000 lb of the Mk.4).


All good arguments.  So what if one of the USS Essex class carriers had been provided to the Royal Navy on a long term lease or as an outright gift during the cold war.  The only problem is that to have one ready to go to sea there would be a need for two additional hulls to maintain such readiness.  One in refit, one working up and one deployed in support of NATO in the Mediterranean or the North Atlantic.  I suspect manpower requirements would have made that nearly impossible even with a free carrier but it is always nice to imagine what an FAA or RAN Savage would look like :)

***Addendum

Finding in-service dates is hit and miss.  Ginter's book on the Savage states that at least one squadron was still operating the aircraft until 1959-1960. 

I liked the idea of Red Beard arming the FAA Savage but the weapon was too late for matching up with the airframe.  Still it would be a great what if to imagine that the Savage had been produced in greater numbers and remained in service for much longer to get that match up.  Actual production numbers dictated an early retirement since there was no new airframes available to replace what was getting worn out in service but it is nice to imagine it as as a "coulda-shoulda-woulda" :)

Boeing page on the NAA Savage
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:46:15 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
I'm going to have to take that FAA AJ idea now!  Look for a profile in under the wire  ;)

Sorry you had such trouble with the paint but you seem to have made lemonade out of it!! Can't wait to see her in her markings, keep it up man  :)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2013, 12:45:04 PM »
Could woulda shoulda built the Malta's and all four Audacious selling the Colossus & Majestics, Centaurs and remaining Armoured fleets.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2013, 01:09:38 PM »
I'm going to have to take that FAA AJ idea now!  Look for a profile in under the wire  ;)

Sorry you had such trouble with the paint but you seem to have made lemonade out of it!! Can't wait to see her in her markings, keep it up man  :)

Another potential nuclear delivery platform to consider is the Grumman Tracker.  While it was powered by a pair of R1820's in real life, what if it had been fitted with R2600's or R2800's?  Take out the the TACCO and SENSO stations and turn that area into a full size weapons bay.  Remove the drop down radar abaft the bomb bay and put a more appealing nose on the thing to house an attack radar and you all of a sudden have a rather interesting looking little attack aircraft.  I have been experimenting with a 1:72nd scale Hasegawa/Minicrapht S-2 Tracker to see how it would look with a full bomb bay.  A bit of careful scribing to determine the other bomb bay door and some extra careful razor saw action to remove it and you have a rather spacious cavity that can be filled with bomb racks and some equipment racks.  I sanded off the access door on the starboard side but that could be left as a maintenance access panel if you don't want to obscure it.  I figure the crew would be two: Pilot and a Bombardier/Navigator like on the A-6 and have access to the cockpit being through the cockpit transparencies on either side (just like on the OV-1 Mohawk).  Stores pylons under the wings can remain but that pesky searchlight needs to go unless you want to convert that to your radar pod.  The MAD unit at the rear was trimmed away and sanded so that it is no longer showing as that feature.  I was toying with the idea of adding a ball turret from a B-17 or B-24 to the space previously occupied by the surface search radar since the hole is large enough but doing that means you have to add in another crew member and once inside the turret there is no getting out of it so I ruled that out.  Still it is a possible version to consider if you wanted to experiment with alternatives to a standard S-2 Tracker.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:17:23 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2013, 06:16:20 PM »
Perhaps a maritime strike and ASW or even an AEW version of the Savage?

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2013, 07:58:17 PM »

All good arguments.  So what if one of the USS Essex class carriers had been provided to the Royal Navy on a long term lease or as an outright gift during the cold war.  The only problem is that to have one ready to go to sea there would be a need for two additional hulls to maintain such readiness.  One in refit, one working up and one deployed in support of NATO in the Mediterranean or the North Atlantic.  I suspect manpower requirements would have made that nearly impossible even with a free carrier but it is always nice to imagine what an FAA or RAN Savage would look like :)


Well presumably the Essexes would have been operated in place of other, less satisfactory carriers, so some crew could be re-assigned from them.

I suspect that there are very definite "windows" for an Essex loan/sale:

1. The classic, much discussed one is from the late 1960s to mid 1970s, the reason for rejecting it being given as the cost/time of converting them to RN standards and the fact that by then, they were as old and tired as the old, tired carriers they were intended to replace. The RV didn't "run out" of servicable carriers in that period, rather the government made a deliberate political/financial decision to get rid of them. With appropriate funding, we could have had any combination of Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious, Hermes and Bulwark in service into the early 1980s.

2. There was another window between WWII and Korea, when a number of Essexes were laid up and presumably available. The UK government would have had to be quick and decisive to take advantage of it though (I know, pure fantasy...), because when Korea kicked off, all but two badly damaged ones were put back into USN service. It's important to remember as well that one of the reasons for the RN's 1950s carrier shortage was that many ships' builds/rebuilds were being repeatedly revised and extended as carrier technology and aircraft weights advanced in leaps and bounds. The USN was somewhat insulated from this by the sheer number and size of hulls they had, but presumably, a small RN Essex force would have spent much of the 1950s and early 1960s being re-built and re-built again, just as the real RN carriers were.

Of course, there's nothing to stop you from whiffjitsuing the history to make it credible: a slightly richer post-war UK, slightly more Essexes actually built,  a later start to the Korean War, etc, etc....

Quote
I liked the idea of Red Beard arming the FAA Savage but the weapon was too late for matching up with the airframe.  Still it would be a great what if to imagine that the Savage had been produced in greater numbers and remained in service for much longer to get that match up.  Actual production numbers dictated an early retirement since there was no new airframes available to replace what was getting worn out in service but it is nice to imagine it as as a "coulda-shoulda-woulda" :)

Boeing page on the NAA Savage


You might imagine that if the RN bought Savages but was unable to operate the Skywarrior and didn't build the Buccaneer, then the Savages might have been re-built with turboprops and more modern booster jets, with UK industry buying the jigs and tooling from NA when the USN no longer wanted them in order to keep them going indefinately. There was a prototype turboprop Savage, but it foundered on the Allison T40 fiasco : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A2J_Super_Savage  You could easily imagine it with Pythons or Double-Mambas....

The problem with taking the Savage very far into the 1960s as an attack bomber though, would be speed. 460mph at 41,000 ft was quite respectable when it was designed in the late 1940s, but it must have been looking a bit suicidal ten years later.  It would be hard to ignore the alternative merits of hanging a Red Beard and two drop tanks on a Skyhawk, particularly since you could have it with a UK engine (the J65 was a US Sapphire, which means an Avon would also fit).

You could, of course, convert the Savages into tankers to extend the range of the Skyhawks....

Something else I'm looking at is an FAA Douglas Skyknight, either the real one or the projected swept-wing development. Can't find a UK engine that will slot in in place of the J-34s though. However, there was a plan to fit Skyknights with the J-46 in enlarged nacelles, and only another 3" diameter on that will get you a Metrovick Beryl....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2013, 12:34:13 AM »
Jeff, have you ever seen the Grumman XTB2F-1?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_XTB2F

It was meant to replace the Avenger on board the CVBs but the USN was too weary of running twin engined aircraft off of carriers at the time (not sure why...).

You can't deny that it had some influence on the Tracker and it could certainly be viewed as a ancestral attack version.  It also had a dorsal and ball turret with twin .50s in them along with a 75mm cannon in the nose like the B-25s.  Something to think about maybe?

I have a 3-view drawing of it if you want one.

So...FAA A-4s huh?  Which model do you think would best suite the RN?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2013, 08:29:57 AM »
I've just come to pick decals for the Panther and realised a major flaw in my story: even if the RN got Panthers in time for Korea, it wouldn't have had carriers that could operate them. No carrier of any navy got an angled deck or a steam catapult until after Korea and I strongly suspect that the Colossus class carriers that served there couldn't have operated Panthers without them. Argentina's Independencia (ex HMS Warrior) was rated as unsuitable to operate to operate their Panthers even with an interim angled deck due to her catapults not being strong enough. I can't find any example of a Colossus or Majestic operating jets without an angled deck and a steam catapult.

The USN was able to operate jets from straight-deck Essexes because they were big:  with 850ft (ish) flight decks, they were 75 ft longer than even Eagle & Ark Royal, let alone the Colossus class....

Hmmm - needs thunking about..... ???
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2013, 09:18:48 AM »
Sounds like another layer of what if to me :) 

How about cross decking with the FAA squadron attached to an American Carrier Air Group/Wing and operating from one of the jet capable carriers used during the Korean War?  About all you need to add is a carrier group identification letter to the tail and the squadron MODEX code to the wings. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2013, 09:32:16 AM »
Yes I considered that, but I've come up with another solution: HMS Eagle commissioned in 1951 with Attackers, which means she could operate a Panther-like jet with her straight deck and hydraulic cats. IRL, she never went to Korea, but what I'm going to do is have her finished a bit quicker so she can do a tour there.

My FAA Seahawks decal sheet has Eagle codes, so we're off.... :)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2013, 09:53:11 AM »
Problem solved!!!  Send Eagle to Korea!

My other thought would be some sort of training/liaison squadron with the USN.  You have your planes but your CV is still being built so come join the CVW of one of ours and learn the ropes sort of thing.  Might be a little far fetched as I've never known a time when 2 countries operated squadrons off the same ship, especially back then but who knows?  This is whiff world after all  ;)

Weaver, I'm going to do a pair (if not, at least one) of the FAA nukes we discussed.  Want to come up with a back story for them and I'll whip up the profile(s)?  Preference over an AJ or A-4?  Let me know  :)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »
Well, topside is decalled and looking good. :)

I went for 738 squadron's black Pegasus badge in the end, because it fits on the nose and stands out well against the Sky paint. In the end, fitting all the markings on wasn't as much of a pain as I thought it would be. Buzz numbers come in a variety of sizes so I picked a small one. It's going to be a bit light on stencilling because the aftermarket sheet doesn't come with much (just oddball bits that wouldn't be on any kit sheet) and the original sheet is ruined (and American). I'm pretty sure I've got a sheet of ejector seat triangles upstairs and a bit of raiding should get me a few other bits and bobs. Might have to give the step guide lines a miss though: too much other stuff in the way...



My other thought would be some sort of training/liaison squadron with the USN.  You have your planes but your CV is still being built so come join the CVW of one of ours and learn the ropes sort of thing.  Might be a little far fetched as I've never known a time when 2 countries operated squadrons off the same ship, especially back then but who knows?  This is whiff world after all  ;)

Argentina's Skyhawks have operated off Brazil's carrier quite recently. It was also common practice for the RN and USN to do cross-decking exercises. I don't think they ever flew significant numbers of aircraft off each other's decks but they certainly demonstrated the capability. You can find nice pics of RN and USN Phantoms sat next to each other on adjacent cats, with the RN one's nose right up in the air on it's jump-strut...

Of course, the NATO and national exchange programmes mean that many pilots do a tour with another air arm, flying the host's aircraft in the host's colours, so the experience gets spread around even without swapping actual aircraft. I imagine that if the FAA really was buying Panthers they'd use this facility to the hilt to get their pilots up to speed...

Quote
Weaver, I'm going to do a pair (if not, at least one) of the FAA nukes we discussed.  Want to come up with a back story for them and I'll whip up the profile(s)?  Preference over an AJ or A-4?  Let me know  :)

Great, but bear with me a few days: not going to get much chance to go online at work for the rest of this week...

In my back-story the FAA don't get nukes until Red Beard comes along in the 1960s, so the carrier would most likely be a licenced produced Douglas-Blackburn* Skyhawk S.1, which would be based on an early A-4A to A-4D airframe, i.e. one with a J-65/Sapphire engine. Look to Buccaneer squadrons for markings...

*It has to be Blackburn who are the UK licencees, because I actually knew someone called Doug Blackburn: too good to pass up... ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:51:29 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2013, 12:32:44 AM »
Now here's an interesting drawing from the Wiki page:



There appear to be two folded heights on that, 17'10" and 16'11", and in the side view that shows them, the tip tanks arn't on (which is wierd because they wern't detachable). The lower height appear to be achieved by having the main gear compressed, so my question is, was that a state the aircraft could be left in, or was it something that was only done just before launch?

Why do I care? Because the tallest RN hangers were 17'6": my FAA Panther might need a Gannet-style double-wing fold...... ???


Here's a thought: might it be possible to fold the wings up and then rotate them backwards manually so that they site more-or-less horizontally, clipped onto the ends of the tailplanes? if the front hinge had an additional rotation pin and the back one had a manually removable one, it might work.....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2013, 03:39:57 AM »
Why not just reduce the angle of the folded wings to 45 or 50 degrees to get that needed clearance?  The negative being that your parking footprint is expanded but you could at least get the thing inside the hangar deck. 

Another option to consider would be the shorter wing fold section like that of the F8F Bearcat.   

There is also the older, yet proven method of wing fold as used on the Avenger and Hellcat by having the wings fold and rotate to lie along the fuselage lengthwise.   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 03:42:27 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2013, 07:53:52 AM »
Why not just reduce the angle of the folded wings to 45 or 50 degrees to get that needed clearance?  The negative being that your parking footprint is expanded but you could at least get the thing inside the hangar deck. 

Because space is critical on small RN carriers. When your total aircraft compliment is only 35, "a few less" can be the difference between a viable force and a non-viable one. The only RN carriers to approach the size of an Essex were the Ark Royal and Eagle.

Quote
There is also the older, yet proven method of wing fold as used on the Avenger and Hellcat by having the wings fold and rotate to lie along the fuselage lengthwise.

Well that's pretty much what I'm suggesting, but as a modification of the existing structure rather than a complete re-design.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2013, 09:13:10 PM »
I've always wondered why everyone abandoned the "Grumman Fold" when jets came along, including Grumman.  There has to be a good reason why only piston engine aircraft have used that particular method of folding the wings.  Something to do with high speeds?  Thin vs. Thick wings? Ability/inability for outer wing to carry heavy stores?  Anyone have any idea?
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2013, 09:51:26 PM »
I've always wondered why everyone abandoned the "Grumman Fold" when jets came along, including Grumman.  There has to be a good reason why only piston engine aircraft have used that particular method of folding the wings.  Something to do with high speeds?  Thin vs. Thick wings? Ability/inability for outer wing to carry heavy stores?  Anyone have any idea?

Well it's the simplest, strongest wing-fold system IF you've got the hangar clearance for it. If you don't need a fancier system, then why have it: simplicate and add lightness.....

The RN was so keen on the idea because their armoured hangars were very heavy, so every square foot of wall saved translated into a big weight saving. Also, the only way to improve aircraft complement on a closed-hangar carrier was to have a double-decked hangar, which only made the weight/topweight problem worse. Over the course of it's evolution, the hangar height on Illustrious class carriers actually went down from 16' to 14' in stages, which is why the latest and lowest-mileage of them at the end of the war were also the hardest and most expensive to contemplate re-building.... ::)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2013, 10:03:05 PM »
Got the Falcon vac-form canopy cut out and trimmed successfully this morning.......and breath......... :icon_meditation:

It's currently drying from a dip in Klear (Future). To avoid a repeat of my earlier cock-up, I've got an Eduard canopy mask, but it's for the Hobby Boss kit not the Hase one, so we'll see how interesting that is.

I'm also in the middle of correcting another mistake, which I believe is quite common. Wondering what colour 3" RPs were, I went looking on the web, found a nice black one in a museum, and promptly sprayed all 16 black. Then the other night, I found a discussion about these on another website, where one guy said "of course another mistake modellers often make is to paint them black...."

Wha?  :icon_surprised:

Loads of people objected to this, pointing him to the museum pics, but he patiently explained that the reason why 3" rockets in museums tend to be black is because they're the inert drill rounds that survived to end up in museums. The live rounds, that got fired and therefore didn't survive, were all bronze green. Turns out that he was an RAF armourer for 20 years too, so I guess he knows what he's talking about...

So I'm now painting the bodies bronze green, in-between the zero-point clips that I've already painted aluminium..... :icon_crap: (probably find out they were purple now....)

Warheads were olive green, but I found contemporary pics of some splendidly grotty RAF ones being loaded onto Hunters in Oman, so they're going to be olive/rust, the story being that they're from RAF stocks in the middle east...
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2013, 05:57:22 AM »
Down to the fiddly bits to the finish now.

Went to put the canopy on, and found that my pot of Clearfix was solid, so I tried another product called Glue'n'Glaze that I got at a model show:  indistinguishable from PVA basically. I thought it had screwed up horribly at first, but once it had half-dried, I was able to reposition the canopy and clean it up and it looks okay now.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2013, 07:25:42 AM »
Great job .. waiting now for the grand reveal

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2013, 09:52:33 AM »
Well it was going great....

I've had the model upside-down most of this evening, carefully scraping tiny amounts of paint off the undercarriage mounting points so that they'll stick. Got them all on, turned it right way up, and the canopy is full of swarf....... :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

So tomorrow, I'm going to be prising the vac-form canopy off, cleaning it then re-fitting it then re-re-painting the sills.... :icon_crap:
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2013, 07:08:36 PM »
Okay, canopy off and cleaned up, undercarriage and dive brakes on and drying. Now needs:

Nav lights painting
Undercarriage/dive brakes touching up where paint's been scraped off to get a bond
Canopy back on and touched up
Tailplanes on and touched-up if neccessary
Coat of Klear to make all the touch-ups semi-gloss and protect the decals
Coat of Klear on the rocket bodies
Gun gas and rocket-exhaust "soot" marks
Rockets on

« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 07:10:32 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2013, 08:40:42 PM »
Some of that done, and now discovered a new problem ('cos there always HAS to be a new problem with this model... :icon_twisted:). Because it's moulded in dark blue plastic, the combination of that plus liquid glue forms an electric blue solution which then creeps into the surrounding paint, much of which just happens to be white or sky where it shows up really well..... :icon_crap:

So I've just re-painted large chunks of the undercarriage and doors, again, in situ, to cover over it, and will probably have to do the tailplane joints again when they're dry.

Think I'm going to have painted every bit of this thing five times over by the finish: there is nearly no panel lining left visible....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Online GTX_Admin

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »
This kit will be the one that finally puts you in an institution mate...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2013, 10:50:33 PM »
I think we are starting to see why the RN FAA never operated the Grumman Panther, its just too hard and stressful to model!

Offline Weaver

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  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2013, 10:57:53 PM »
Cheers folks!

Just took the supports out from under the tailplanes.... and it promptly rocked onto it's backside. Yep, it's a tail-sitter, despite the nose cone being stuffed with 2mm steel balls.... ::)

Fortunately I've been here before (with a Messerscmitt P.1111), so the solution was at hand: I coated more steel balls in PVA then rolled them in through the footwells, so that they fell into the nose and stuck where they fell (hopefully). A dozen of them and it was firmly back on it's nosewheel.  :D

Ironically, if I hadn't had to take the canopy off, I couldn't have done this: funny how things work out isn't it?  ???
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2013, 06:20:56 PM »
Last night : put a coat of Klear over the under-wing and nose decla to protect them from the wethering process as suggested everywhere.

This morning : one of the underwing roundels, that was perfectly all right last night, has now bubbled under the Klear, and the fact that it's got the Klear on it means that I can't use Micro-Sol to flatten it out again.... :(

Quite frankly, I don't care any more: it's going to be finished today, come hell or high water (and no, the house can't flood; we're on a hill!).

On the upside, graphite weathering has made nice, subtle gun gas, rocket exhaust and jet exhaust marks, but it still won't stick to the underwing buzz number decals, even though they've got a layer of Klear over them... ??? Still, doesn't matter really: you'll barely be able to see that bit under the rockets.

Now going out for some clear red and green paint for the nav lights ('cos guess what I havn't got that I thought I'd got) and hopefully some Humbrol Clearfix, 'cos I like it better than PVA.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2013, 07:58:15 PM »
American Big Cats in Britain
The FAA's Ferocious Felines



In June 1946, the new British Government formed a committee, lead by the respected economist Sir Charles Brokensha, to examine the future prospects for Britain and it's empire. The report, delivered some 18 months later, was possibly the most influential document of the post-war years, since it laid out a future that most politicians didn't want to hear, but did so with such meticulously logical reasoning, backed up by a wealth of evidence, that it's conclusions were inarguable. Britain was broke: it was going to lose it's empire, it was going to see it's role in the world diminished, and the sooner it started adapting to the new realities, the less painful the inevitable adjustments would be.


The report also made it clear that any policy to deal with this situation would fail if it was subject to the flip-flops and reversals of partisan politics so the first thing the Attlee government did was to hold secret talk with the Conservative party to gain agreement on the basic principles. The Conservatives relished the report even less than Labour, but it was Winston Churchill himself, perhaps more aware of Britain's precarious position than anyone, who swung the debate in the report's favour by portraying it's acceptance by the Conservatives in terms of making a sacrifice for the greater good of the country. Cross-party agreement having been reached, the Brokensha report was made public. It provoked howls of  indignation in the press, the Daily Telegraph re-christening it the “Broke and Scared” report, but with both major parties behind it, the controversy was weathered, and a host of committees and panels set up to apply the Brokensha principles to all areas of government policy, domestic and foreign, civilian and military.


The panels set up to apply the Brokensha principles to aviation and naval policy quickly arrived at some interlocking and far-reaching conclusions, one of which was that there was no point in Britain continuing to develop it's own naval aircraft. Britain's carrier force was likely to diminish rapidly in the near future to the point where it didn't represent a viable market for such aircraft, the Americans wouldn't buy British aircraft for domestic political reasons whatever their technical merit, and the rest of the world's requirements added up to less than the Royal Navy's. Limited research and development budgets, they argued, should be spent on areas of aviation where there were either real commercial prospects or a genuinely unique military requirement to meet. If the Royal Navy was going to stay in the carrier business, it would have to do so on the coat-tails of the US Navy.


This decision lead to yet more howls of protest, this time from an aircraft industry and unions concerned about technological leadership and jobs, but in fact, there was little loss of either. It quickly became apparent to planners that a number of American naval aircraft were already either using British engines or could be improved by them, and it proved possible to negotiate licence production agreements that meant that much of the resulting work and expenditure would remain in Britain, cushioning both the industry and the balance or payments. The obvious aircraft to pick as a jet fighter was the Rolls Royce Nene powered Grumman F9F Panther, and the government was careful to ensure that the Hawker Siddeley Aircraft conglomerate got the licence production deal in compensation for the cancellation of Hawker's own Nene-powered naval fighter, the P.1040, which was in many ways very similar to the American aircraft.


Hawker assigned production of the Panther to Gloster Aircraft, although many aircraft were actually made by their Armstrong Whitworth subsidiary. Adaption of the Panther to Fleet Air Arm standards proved relatively painless since it was already a naval aircraft, the biggest headache being the re-engineering of the wing-fold mechanism to “over-fold” so that the aircraft would fit in the RN carriers' 17'6” high hangars. British radios and armaments were provided for, and the Colt Mk.12 cannons were replaced by standard British Hispano Mk.Vs. British-built Grumman-Gloster Panther FGA.1s began delivery to the Fleet Air Arm in January 1950.


A more serious problem was finding carriers to fly the new jets from. The Colossus class light fleet carriers and their derivatives proved too short for safe and practical operations. Training was possible using Indomitable and Indefatigable, but these wartime carriers' hangars were too low to strike the aircraft below decks, and reconstruction had been ruled out following Brokensha. Only the two new Eagles, which had had their design modified during construction, would be both long enough to operate the Panthers and tall enough to hangar them, but although well advanced, due to resources having been diverted to them from the cancelled battleship Vanguard, they were both several years away from completion due to the post-war slow down. Events would soon change that, however.


When the Korean War broke out in June 1950, the only Royal Navy carrier able to respond was the Colossus class HMS Theseus with her complement of piston-engined Sea Furies and Fireflies. When this became known, the British press went without a blink from berating the government for it's “sell-out” purchase of the American Panthers to berating them for not being able to deploy them to a war zone. The government didn't need much prompting anyway: completion of Eagle and Ark Royal was given “super priority” status at the expense of the Centaur class carriers then in build, and after a hasty work up, Eagle deployed to Korea in March 1951, Ark Royal following in January 1952. Although the two ships were unable to maintain a continuous presence, requiring the deployment of Colossus class carriers to fill the gaps, they still made an extremely valuable contribution.


Ironically, despite having been bought as fighters, the Fleet Air Arm Panthers spent most of their time in Korea on ground attack duties which could and were carried out with equal facility by the piston-engined aircraft they'd replaced. The swept-wing MiG-15 had made it's shock appearance, and the general feeling was that any straight-winged jet was no match for it. However this didn't stop the Panther pilots from scoring thirteen kills during the war, one of which, a MiG-15 downed by captain Peter Tremayne of 738 Sqn in May 1951, was the Fleet Air Arm's first jet-on-jet victory.


The period after Korea saw more big changes for the Royal Navy's carriers. Although operations with Eagle and Ark Royal were successful, they also suffered from a high landing accident rate, and  it became clear that the new technology of angled decks was the way forward for jet operations. The Prospect of reconstructing the recently completed Eagles was regarded with some enthusiasm by many in the Royal Navy, but this wasn't shared by the Government, who, still applying Brokensha, decreed that the future for British carrier aviation lay in small ships. The purchase of the last two  Majestic class light carriers Hercules and Leviathan with an interim angled deck arrangement involving minimal reconstruction was authorised, followed by the completion of the stalled Centaurs to a new angled deck design.


The future was limited for the Panthers too. The appearance of the MiG-15 over Korea had caused all orders for the Panther to be immediately converted into orders for it's swept-wing Tay-powered successor, the F9F-6 Cougar, and these, as Cougar FGA.1s (also built by Gloster) began arriving from 1954. The Cougar's landing speed was even higher than the Panther's so these aircraft were restricted to the new angled deck carriers as they came into service, with the Panthers soldiering on on the straight-deck Eagle and Ark Royal until there were enough of the former to replace them. It was originally envisaged that this state of affairs would last until 1959, but in 1956 came the surprise decision to convert Eagle and Ark Royal to helicopter-carrying commando carriers for the Suez adventure, and so the Panther's FAA career as a fighter came to an abrupt end. It wasn't the complete end of the story though, for the FAA, feeling that it's Sea Vampire T.22s were less than representative of a modern jet, campaigned successfully for many of the Panther airframes to be re-built as two-seat trainers, these Panther T.3s giving sterling service until the last one was retired in 1980. It was by no means the end of Grumman's involvement with Gloster either, but that's another story...


The aircraft depicted by the model is a Panther FGA.1 flown by 738 Squadron FAA from HMS Eagle during the Korean War. FAA Panthers were fitted to fire up to sixteen British RP.3 rockets (the so-called “60lb” RP) rather than the six 5” HVARs of the original American aircraft. Although an individual RP.3 was less destructive than an HVAR, the increased combat persistence of the British warload was often greatly appreciated in close air support situations. Supply of munitions of all kinds was a problem for British forces during the war, and these rockets seem to be from a batch that were assembled from RN-held motors fitted with warheads taken from an RAF stockpile in Aden, hence the mismatch between the relatively pristine motors and the rusty warheads.





Model : Hasegawa 1/72nd Grumman F9F-2 Panther
Rockets : from two Frogspawn Sea Venoms
Paint : Brush-painted Humbrol enamels and coloured pencils
Decals : Xtradecal X72-136 "13 Sea Hawks"

« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:21:42 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2013, 08:22:30 PM »
Finally...he overcomes!  Great work.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2013, 10:37:58 PM »
Good job! Looks good in RN FAA colours, too. 8)

:)

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2013, 11:11:54 PM »
That really does look very nice Harold   :) :) :) :)  well done!

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2013, 02:18:20 AM »
That really does look very nice Harold   :) :) :) :)  well done!

Take a picture in black and white. Find one of the HMS Eagle.  Merge the two together with Photoshop. Post on it ARC and watch the JMNs go crazy.  >:D
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline finsrin

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2013, 03:07:16 AM »
Last weekend we were discussing "challenges" of this build.  As Greg said -> Finally...he overcomes!  Great work.
Locations of colors looks RW.  Rocket exhaust marks under wing are right on.  Will remember that for future builds.
Excellent write up about historical context of its FAA service.
Cool Panther  8)

Offline raafif

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2013, 06:22:14 AM »
Looks great !  Naturally the RNAS Panther Mk.I would have been built as a tail-dragger anyway ... later having to revert to tricycle u/c as the decks got boiled :icon_nif:

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2013, 07:07:54 AM »
Congratulations Harold!  You did very well considering the trial by fire you were subjected to in order to get this project finished. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2013, 08:50:22 AM »
Cheers folks!

As usual, photography flatters: it's not nearly so nice close-up, with all sorts of paint glitches, some of which showed up at the last minute in the last coat of Klear (still not sure what's gone on there, to be honest...).

I've also spotted a couple of things:

1. I did a load of gun gas marks with powdered graphite (similar to the rocket marks) but they've gone! Must have rubbed off with handing: another penalty of that last coat of Klear. Might re-instate then with Tamiya Smoke.

2. I intended to nick a couple of ejection seat warning triangles from some other kit and add them: the USN Panthers didn't have them (had remarkably few warning stencils, actually) but contemporary Sea Hawks did.

This is the first time I've used Klear (Future) as a general clear coat (as opposed to just on canopies) and given it's mythical reputation, I have to say I'm a bit dissapointed. In particular, the second coat, applied after the decals, came out oddly streaky in places and generally did weird and unwelcome little things. I suspect that people who rave about it are mostly airbrushing it in much thinner layers.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2013, 07:07:18 PM »
Superb, and loved the back story too!

So where there any exports to navies operating modernised Majestics for example? (Australia and Canada) Hint hint

I am salivating over the inferred Tiger, Avon RA14 combo?

Offline LemonJello

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2013, 08:18:04 PM »
That is gorgeous.  The color scheme beats the pants off the overall blue that my Panther wears.  Well done!

Offline Claymore

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2013, 01:03:42 AM »
Absolutely beautiful work.  A great idea and superbly delivered.  :)
Friendly fire isn't and suppressive fire rarely does!

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2013, 10:46:25 AM »
That is a peach  :-*
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Offline buzzbomb

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2013, 08:41:28 AM »
Great to see this finished. Terrific job

In so many ways it looks right.. and wrong at the same time.

Interesting how the tail shape in someways resembles the Gannet  :))

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2013, 03:17:13 AM »
Great model! :-*

Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2013, 12:50:59 AM »
Great to see this finished. Terrific job

In so many ways it looks right.. and wrong at the same time.

Interesting how the tail shape in someways resembles the Gannet  :))

 Thumbs up to all of the above, and - egads - it DOES look like a Gannet tail...
 

Offline Weaver

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2013, 07:20:56 AM »
Thanks very much for the comments and votes everyone - very much appreciated.  :)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline M.A.D

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Re: The FAA go American
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2017, 06:36:32 PM »
Wow, that's cool!!!

Sorry I missed this Weaver  :-[

M.A.D