Author Topic: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations  (Read 16968 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 10:47:17 PM »
Ok started building, found a Revell / Matchbox Duke of York but not a Nelson or Rodney to be seen, didn't really feel like doing a US turret so the 16" Batch 2 is out.  Lots of spare bits from various modern Dragon warship kits.

My current thinking:
  • Mk6 twin 4.5" in P&S 1&4
  • Mk13 Tartar in P&S 2
  • Mk10 Terrier in P&S 3 (missile magazines in deck house over old aircraft catapult)
  • or Ikara (if I can find the HMS Perth DDG kit I know I have somewhere) in P&S 3(missile magazines in deck house over old aircraft catapult)
  • Seacat in super structure somewhere
I also have Phalanx, Goalkeeper, Seawolf, Sea Sparrow, Breda Bofors twins Harpoon, Exocet and Tomahawk.  Trying to work out the best place for helo facilities.

All those left over 5.25" twins, what to do?

I do have a 1/600 MPC(Airfix) County Class DLG, Scalorama 158.53m becomes 184.9m in 1/700. 

1950's notional Cruiser/Destroyer was designed to kill Sverdlovs with 5"/70 rapid fire guns.  These guns were evolved from the 5.25" twin, the twin was too heavy for the Cruiser/Destroyer so a single was developed, this design was never built but elements of it found their way onto the County, i.e. the COSAG propulsion and possibly hull form.......

About the same time France had Degrasse and Colbert with multiple 5"L54 twins......

UK builds a class of 10000ton gun/missile cruisers with multiple 5"L70 and ? missiles, type 984 radar etc.....Batch 1 have Tartar and Seacat, Batch 2 built in the early 70s have Sea Dart and Sea Wolf.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2013, 06:23:37 AM »
Agreed, but this is good because when it comes time to replace Polaris the UK opts for Trident and SSBNs.  The BBBGs have their ballistic missile tubes removed effectively converting them into BBGs before being placed in reserve, leaving the RN with a number of very flexible, capable and balanced light carrier groups. 

When required during the mid 80s the BBGs are reactivated with Tartar updated to standard and Tomahawk fitted in multiple armored box launches is fitted.

Why fit the Tomahawks into armored box launchers?  Use something like the drop-in Tomahawk cells used to convert some Ohio-class boats from SSBN's to SSGN's.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 06:57:02 AM »
Agreed, but this is good because when it comes time to replace Polaris the UK opts for Trident and SSBNs.  The BBBGs have their ballistic missile tubes removed effectively converting them into BBGs before being placed in reserve, leaving the RN with a number of very flexible, capable and balanced light carrier groups. 

When required during the mid 80s the BBGs are reactivated with Tartar updated to standard and Tomahawk fitted in multiple armored box launches is fitted.

Why fit the Tomahawks into armored box launchers?  Use something like the drop-in Tomahawk cells used to convert some Ohio-class boats from SSBN's to SSGN's.
Depends on timing, the SLBM tube option is a 90s development based on Trident tubes.  Not saying it couldn't be done just that it would require the ships having the empty tubes sitting there for a couple of decades.

I had a thought on where to locate Polaris, drop four tubes into B barbette.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 07:09:17 AM »
The same approach, with a smaller number of Tomahawks could be applied to Polaris tubes.  So you get four or five instead of six in, that's still quite a Tomahawk capability.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 11:32:24 AM »
Very true and in the pre-START days it you could have deployed nuke tipped Tomahawks

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 10:45:02 PM »
Ok worked out the back story.

With Japans non-ratification of the Second London Naval Treaty the escalation clause was triggered leading to the immediate order for 5 Lion Class Battleships and the recognition of Japan as a threat to Britain's interests saw Jellicoes plans for the defence of the dominions dusted off.  A resurgent Germany and fascist Spain and Italy were also of concern so the decision was made to work around the provisions of the London Treaty through the structural separation of the RAN and RNZN from the RN.

The result of this was the reformation of the RAN Fleet unit built around the transferred HMS Repulse and the planned formation of a second Fleet Unit to be based on the transferred HMS Renown and a third, to remain RN to be built around HMS Hood and based in Singapore.

The scale of rearmament required was daunting and the decision was made in May 1937 for the UK yards to concentrate on new construction while Cockatoo Island Dockyard in Sydney Australia would be expanded to permit the modernisation, refit and repair of capital ships.  The first ship to undergo modernisation at Cockatoo was HMS Repulse which received an identical modernisation to that received by Renown, followed by Hood, Furious, and Glorious. 

During the early phases of the war the RAN served along side the RN but with Japans entry to the conflict both RAN Fleet Units, including the carriers Furious and Glorious, returned to Australian waters.  During the Battle of Savo Island HMAS Repulse was struck by a pair of Long lance torpedos and while she was saved the damage to her was severe requiring her to return to Cockatoo for repair.  A survey of the damage revealed her to be a constructional loss leading to the transfer of HMS Duke of York to the RAN as a replacement.


This gets me both Renown and Duke of York in the RAN by the mid 40s with both modernised and retained post war with Cockatoo Island capable of conducting major work on capitals for future upgrades.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2013, 07:51:48 AM »
Found this on Armorama:



Full article here.
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2013, 01:24:21 PM »
That is incredible.  Just gorgeous.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2013, 05:16:53 PM »
Wow!

Offline finsrin

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2013, 06:01:20 PM »
OMG  WOW - yes, INCREDIBLE  :o
Like the B&W treatment.  Same as most WW2 photos.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Offline mrvr6

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2014, 09:11:41 PM »
OMG  WOW - yes, INCREDIBLE  :o
Like the B&W treatment.  Same as most WW2 photos.

it isnt b&w but it is mindblowingly good  :-*

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2014, 12:02:06 AM »
Another thought stuck my mind, what if the UK had continued with the Nelson type layout with all main guns forward on the KGVs.  Two superfiring quad 14" forward aircraft arrangements, cats, hangers etc. and most 5.25" aft.  In fact why not forget the 5.25" and stick with the 4.5" and have dozens of them fore and aft. or even 6' or 8' aft in conjunction with the 4.5".  Boats and cranes between the funnels.

Ideal for post war missile conversion with the hangers being used for missiles and helo facilities build above the new missile magazines.  Imagining US MK7 Talos launcher as used on CLG conversions but with double mag for 80 missiles and two finning rooms for each arm, doubling rate of fire 4 or more directors to increase number of missiles in flight.  Tartar often figured in RN thinking as a point defence missile system, thinking MK11, 13, 22 GMLS 2 launchers each with two directors replacing some of the 4.5" near the midriff.  Many of the ships boats replaced with landing craft and heavy davits, LCPV up to LCM or even LCU in size Hangers built adjacent funnels for vehicles up to MBT in size plus troop accommodations.  Amphibious Assault, Command, NGS, Guided Missile Battleship! ;D  Falklands here we come!

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2014, 01:05:37 PM »
Did you know that original project of KGV class was to have 12 x 14in guns in 3 quadruple turrets?




Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2014, 07:11:11 PM »
Yep

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2014, 12:29:56 AM »
The last sole remaining model shop in Darwin just got a new batch of kits in including Tamiya 1/700 KGV, PoW and Nelson, I grabbed KGV and Nelsol  8)
Still have the Revell kit of Duke of York on the workbench but much more impressed with the Tamiya kits, thinking about going back for PoW. 

Nelson, I think, will become a twin quad 14" gunned BC / fast BB with both turrets forward and the superstructure moved forward over the original C (or was it Q) barbette and a second funnel added aft for the dramatically expanded engineering plant.  May retain the 6" turrets or maybe rob the 5.25" turrets from the Revell kit, may fit catapult(s) and hanger(s).  My thinking is this is the RN counter to the Deutschlands and Scharnhorsts based on the Nelsons to save time but employing elements of the upcoming KGVs, including a simpler, less complicated, hence lighter and more reliable 14" turret.  Initially two are ordered then another three which are in turn followed by five batch I (14") and five batch II (16") KGVs.

Post WWII the batch II KGVs were retained in service while the batch I ships were transferred to Commonwealth navies and the Nelson BCs were retained in reserve prior to being upgraded to missile ships (Terrier installed aft).   The batch II KGVs went into reserve as the BCGs entered service before being upgraded themselves in the late 50s, early 60s (Tartar / Polaris).  Or the RN retains the 14" gunned batch I ships and transfers the 16" batch IIs.  Either way, some of the Commonwealth ships are subsequently upgraded, less Polaris.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2014, 12:02:57 AM »
The more I think on it the more I feel like doing a modernised Nelson BC with two quad 14" forward and guided missiles and helicopters aft.  The 16" triples will end up on one of my KGVs as a Batch II ship, possibly with post war mods.

Offline Sunk

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2020, 09:58:14 PM »
Hello all!

I found this thread whilst googling for info on KGV post war modifications, a favourite "what if" having concluded, like DNC that bringing the cruisers into the missile age was too difficult!

The essential requirement seems to be:

1) Something large enough to deter a Sverdlov
2) Something large enough to carry a useful magazine of missiles, plus their associated guidance radars. Ideally two launchers with four radars to tackle inbound Badger raids, with enough magazine capacity to take on another raid a few hours later.
3) Something big enough to carry a 984 3D radar for fighter direction- fighters provided by an accompanying Light Fleet.
4) ..and recently added, something big enough to carry Britains contribution to the Multilateral Nuclear Force, ie Polaris

Fag packet calculations determined that a KGV could provide three times the combat power of a Fiji class cruiser whilst requiring only twice the crew (vital factor in post war RN).

The essential problem for the RN in this period wasn't one of ships, but of role. IMO the RN's inability to read the economics and its institutional desire to keep up with the USN really set the scene for its demise in 1966. For the battleships to survive requires the loss of the strike carriers and its remaining cruisers- simply not possible in any realistic scenario to posit a post war RN with battleships, strike carriers and cruisers, plus all the fast escorts needed to hunt down fast submarines. So the scenario is a much contracted RN (in terms of an aggressive role) but one which focusses on a defensive role in the North Atlantic and a constabulary role EoS, supported by Commonwealth allies in the RCN and RAN.

My trusty fag packet reckons that if the RN gave up:

The four strike carriers
Eight Counties
Three Tigers plus Belfast and all remaining Fiji's

They could have crewed:

Three Centaurs
Three Majestics
Four KGV's
Two QE's

..giving it six "Escort Groups". Each EG would comprise a Light Fleet plus a supporting battleship and six fast escorts. Four EG's would form the Home Fleet ready for duties in the GIUK/N Atlantic and providing a CASD with Polaris armed KGV's, whilst Force H would perform its traditional swing role from Gib reinforcing the Atlantic. ME or Far East as required. Another EG (Force Z?!) would support the RAN in the Asia/Pacific from Singapore (naturally).

As for plastic, I've completed a quick n dirty HMS Valiant as the first battleship converted to a missile/FD role- with a single Terrier (sorry Sea Slug fans) aft and a 984, retaining its guns forward but secondaries replaced with Vickers 3in twins. Not much else but this is the first of a series. In build atm is the second conversion- HMS Malaya with the hangers/cat area completely gone allowing a more compact superstructure. Funnel gas impact on the aft mounted 984 is an issue...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 10:00:10 PM by Sunk »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2020, 07:54:30 PM »
Nice!

What scale and where did you get the Type 984 Dustbin?

Offline Sunk

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2020, 08:33:48 PM »
Hi Volkodav- 1/700 Trumpeter kit- I fabbed the 984 up using a BIC pen cap and some placcy card (: A bit of progress on Malaya- makes quite a difference with the hangers & cat removed. Sketching out a Polaris/Talos KGV at the moment..
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 08:40:18 PM by Sunk »