Author Topic: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations  (Read 16986 times)

Offline Volkodav

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King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« on: July 21, 2013, 04:51:06 PM »
1. The UK builds 10 KGVs instead of designing (starting, delaying, cancelling, restarting, rescheduling, redesigning and eventually cancelling) the Lions.
2. All are completed, most during the war seeing extensive active service.
3. Minimal losses, maybe only PoW, possibly one other, leaving eight or more likely nine post war.
4. With the existence of a homogenous class of modern, combat proven battleships that are still capable makes retention, upgrading and modernisation a no brainer.
5. The class are upgraded in the late 40s early 50s, modernised through the 50s into the mid 60s and retained until the early 70s
6. Upgrades include twin 5"/L70, or twin 3"/L70 to replace the 5.35"DPs and Seacat replacing / supplementing Bofors / Pompoms.  Seaslug with an alternate stowage, handling and launching arrangement in place of the twin 14" in B position and one or two Type 984.
7. Perhaps a final modernisation of three or four of the ships in the late 70s with Seadart, Seawolf and Ikara.

Offline billb

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 07:05:12 PM »
The one remaining vessel was moored near that big ferris wheel thingie in England and used as a floating museum and fun park for a century or so.
Following the invention of appropriate near light speed propulsion and rigid atmosphere bubble technology in the late 2080s this vessel was seen as a cost-effective starting point for a space-going pleasure cruiser because of it's size and impressive construction.
This led to 'Solarstar the Frolic Ship' being 'floated'into the wild blackyonder in 2095 in its candy coloured livery, replete with surviving carnival rides on the deck in place of the main batteries and seriously cool slip'n'slides from the bridge to each corner of the main deck.
In 3015 the vessel was re-tasked as the first Earthmob battleship following the inevitable discovery of unfriendly alien baddies.
Various light lances, kinetic broadheads and futuristic killing things adorned it's upper and lower surfaces.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 08:12:33 PM »
In the same time line the US scraps the entire Iowa class BBs and most of their Essex Class CVs during the 50s and then continually fails to fund new generation warships to replace the handful war and immediate post war built ships they did retain.  They spend huge sums of money on advanced aviation and missile programs that are either cancelled just prior to delivering world leading capability or delayed to the point that they are obsolescent by the time they enter service.

Long story short my ideas and inspirations for the KGV class is that the UK builds more of an existing design reaping the rewards of such an extended production run and replacing WWI vintage ships that were still in service through most of the War with more modern and effective ships and that instead of fluffing around designing ships that are never built post war they upgrade what they have to get the new generation of weapons into service.  Basically I am suggesting an interesting modelling exercise could be to assume the UK followed the US example and upgraded what they had to get capabilities into service, then retained proven capabilities in reserve for decades after and in some cases modernised those capabilities and returned them to service to fill gaps prior to the introduction of new technology.

The US used war built cruisers to be their first generation of guided missile ships while the UKs equivalents were simply too small (Crown Colonies and Minotaurs) or too old (i.e. the larger pre-war County and Town class cruisers) leaving only the KGVs and Vanguard.  There were investigations into using Colossus and Majestic Class CVLs as missile ships but they were more in demand and more useful in other roles such as, shock horror, CVLs, CVH, transports and heavy repair ships.  Considerable effort was also expended on designing generations of cruisers, cruiser/destroyers that were never built before finally settling on the County Class DLGs of which there were eight that entered service a decade or so later than a modernised KGV could have.  All of this is covered pretty well by Friedman and others in books covering the period.

Basically the KGVs were completed in the early 40s and by the early 70s would only have been 30 years old, about the same age as the Queen Elisabeth and Revenge Classes made it to, including two world wars.  The Iowas made it to almost 50 years.

Offline kim margosein

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 10:08:12 AM »
   The KGV class, assuming it is being constructed in the 1940s, is a waste of steel.  It is roughly equivalent to the North Carolina or South Dakota class and that is being kind.   Of those three classes, the KGV was the slowest and lightest armed.   The aircraft carrier is the new capital ship and these ships simply could not keep up.    \
 If you are going to dream, dream big.   Have the Lion class design frozen a year or two earlier, and maybe, just maybe, you could get  five or six constructed.  Come 1945, they would still have the new ship smell.   These could become the carrier escorts of the  50s and 60s, with plenty of room to install era-appropriate weapons.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 05:50:44 PM »
There seems to be a lot of hate for the poor old KGV but nothing changes the fact that they are what the UK had in production at the time and that they provided good service.  Interestingly the class had equivalent speed to the corresponding US designs but superior armour protection to either and, I believe, a greater immune zone.  Their weight of fire was seen to be adequate the only genuine criticism would be the complexity and unreliability of the safety mechanisms on the quad turrets and wetness over the bow in high seas.

At the end of the day the UK missed the entire first generation of guided missile ships in part due to the lack of a suitable platform, the were no 10,000ton CLs or 15,000ton CAs, it was the battleships or nothing, the UK government chose nothing, my WIFF proposition is that they chose the KGV.  I like the look of the class, I like their lines and I like the fact that the UK considered modifying them post war.  Don't like it well I really don't care as this site isn't about rivet counting or one up man ship its about enjoying and sharing a hobby while having a good time.

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2013, 02:14:37 AM »
I always find it interesting that you hear of the King George V and Prince of Wales but rarely of the other three:  Duke of York, Howe and Anson.  Anyway, time for a picture in this thread.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 07:20:37 PM »
I always find it interesting that you hear of the King George V and Prince of Wales but rarely of the other three:  Duke of York, Howe and Anson.  Anyway, time for a picture in this thread.


Duke of York pummelled Scharnhorst into scrap metal while Howe and Anson were the primary deterrent keeping Tirpitz out of the war.

Been thinking of the sort of mods that could have been incorporated in batch two ships as well as what could have been done to modernise the class post war.  Batch two is obvious, 16" guns as originally planned under the escalator clause of the second London Naval Treaty.  Which model and how many I don't know, maybe Triples based on those used on the Nelson Class or even Lend Lease Turrets from the US.  War experience may have led to the 5.35" mounts being replaced with a greater number of twin 4.5" DPs and or 3/50" in place of pompoms and Bofors.  Uprated machinery would also make sense, I am not talking a Lion rather an improved KGV built the way it would have been given an extra time after the escalator clause.

Hypothetical batch two aside what sort of mod could the original ships have handled post war?  A thought that comes to mind is the Nelsons were slow and basically shagged, could their turrets have been reconditioned and fitted, a pair each, to three of the KGVs.  Alternatively if the US completed the turrets for Kentucky and Illinois could they have been obtained under MAP to upgrade three KGVs, again two turrets each and also could have been fitted with an early vertically stowed Terrier arrangement as seen on USS Boston and Canberra in place of B turret, also supplied under MAP.  The US were developing an automatic quad 8" DP mount for use on the final pair of Iowas, this could also have been an option.

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2013, 01:58:22 AM »
What about some passed to the rest of the Commonwealth as flagships - say 1 each to Canada, Australia, South Africa, India and New Zealand?
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Offline finsrin

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 02:45:40 AM »
Like to have someone here at BTS build a modernized one akin to USS Missouri & New Jersey.

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 03:24:44 AM »
Like to have someone here at BTS build a modernized one akin to USS Missouri & New Jersey.

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 03:55:01 AM »
Like to have someone here at BTS build a modernized one akin to USS Missouri & New Jersey.
Pretty much what I am considering but my work shop isn't set up yet and my day job (keeping real ships working) is cutting into hobby time.
My thinking is a simple option of an updated minimum change (structural speaking) KGV C1990 with the quad 14" retained, B turret replaced with Seadart, the 5.35" replaced with a mix of Mk8 4.5", Seawolf, Harpoon and possibly Ikara.  Update the radars, fit Phalanx or Goalkeeper and find room for the missile directors in the super structure.  Got a Skywave modern weapons set in a box somewhere that could provide most of that and a HMAS Perth for the Ikara.

A kit bash of a batch two KGV using a Nelson could be interesting which would leave open the opportunity for a batch two Nelson with quad turrets, maybe a RN equivalent to  the French designs of the time.

Another thought is HMS Hood receives a complete rebuild along the lines of Queen. Elizabeth, Valiant and Renown.   

Of course with the Uk building and upgrading additional ships following Japan and Italys non-ratification of the second London treaty there would be battle cruisers and carriers available for transfer to the dominions to reform the Fleet Units Jellicoe stated as being vital for defence against Japanese aggression.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 03:57:55 AM by Volkodav »

Offline Weaver

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2013, 04:58:58 AM »
 I certainly don't want to rain on a whiff-parade, but here are some interesting things to think about:

4. With the existence of a homogenous class of modern, combat proven battleships that are still capable makes retention, upgrading and modernisation a no brainer.

There were plenty of modern, combat proven British cruisers and aircraft carriers that didn't make it past the mid-1950s, so those qualities in themselves were no guarantee of survival. Basically there were two fundamental problems:

1. Britain was broke. We couldn't afford to maintain large numbers of ships, let alone re-build them. Also, these things need a cast of thousands to run them: in wartime you can conscript, but in peacetime you have to pay good enough wages to compete with cushy civilian jobs, in a world that's had it up to here with war. Conscription did continue after the war, but even early on, it was obvious that politically, that was only going to be tolerated for so long.

2. A lot of pre-war and war-built ships that appeared superficially intact were actually quietly shagged, partly due to poor (rushed) construction and partly due to heavy and brutal usage. Quite a few modernisations (Tiger, Blake, various destroyers) and conversions (Victorious, various destroyers) were actually tried, but most of them ran into horrendous problems, cost increases and delays. Often, the problems wern't with the "sexy" stuff like weapons and radars, but with the mundane-but-fundamental stuff like electrical systems, steam plumbing and structures. it's worth reading the relevent chapters of D.K.Brown's excellent Rebuilding the Royal Navy for an insider's view of the conversion/upgrade business, many if most of which seem not to have been worthwhile in hindsight.


A few other relevent issues:

If the 6000 ton Counties could take Seaslug then the 8,000 to 10,000 ton 6" cruisers certainly could, so it wasn't a case of the latter being too small, rather it was that they were thought to be too worn out for it to be worth spending the money on them. The other problem was the sheer scale of the conversion: a complete Seaslug installation is a completely different shape to a system of gun turrets, being essentially a long, horizontal hangar with a launcher at the end of it. fitting such a system into any gun ship would entail a massive and fundamental re-build, far in excess of "merely" changing turrets or gun calibres. Had the RN gone for either the US Terrier system (which we asked to be developed in the first place) or something similar with vertical stowage, then the problem might well have been easier to solve.

A battleship's "unique selling point" is it's big guns, so any scheme that involves removing them risks turning it into just a big, expensive generic hull: this is the logic that killed all the proposals for extensive Iowa conversions. However, if you're going too keep big guns, then you're going to keep all the problems that come with them, such as muzzle blast, which is particularly hard on relatively flimsy structures like missile launchers and radars. This severely constrains the extent to which you can refit modern systems to a big gun warship.


Having said all this  ;) if you must have a modernised KGV, then this is how I'd do it:

1. Remove B-turret and replace it with better accomodation and command spaces. The loss of 2 guns from the broadside will be less relevent to post-war fire-support missions than it would be to ship-to-ship combat, and this turret's muzzle blast is a high threat to other systems. It also saves you a load of crewmen too.

2. Replace P1, P4, S1 and S4 turrets with either twin 4.5" Mk.6 or twin 3" Mk.6.

3. Replace P2, P3, S2 and S3 turrets with twin Mk.11 Terrier launchers. This saves a load of manpower too.

4. Add a new superstructure block that runs across the ship in the former aircraft deck space. This provides more internal volume for modern systems and carries Terrier directors on it's roof to either side.

5. Remove most of the light flak. This saves yet more manpower.

The result is a ship that can bombard a coast in support of an amphibious operation while providing a degree of SAM protection (or perceived SAM protection) for itself and the amphibious ships around it.



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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2013, 07:30:01 AM »
Good idea, maybe the aircraft hangers could have been used for missile stowage as well.  This configuration would have worked with Sea Slug as well as Talos too, I like it.

Realistically the ships were never going to be modernized but it was looked into and it is fun playing with options.

I am actually thinking more and more about a 14" gunned battle cruiser variant of Nelson being developed and built before the KGV and the KGV being subject to the escalation clause and developed with 16" guns.

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2013, 02:49:51 AM »
And maybe combine this with my suggestion of selling some to the Commonwealth navies.  This way you could potentially avoid the "broke Britain" issue.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2013, 03:57:27 AM »
And maybe combine this with my suggestion of selling some to the Commonwealth navies.  This way you could potentially avoid the "broke Britain" issue.
According to Freidman the UK were approached post war by at least one South American nation about supplying surplus or new naval equipment but the answer was "no".  The then attitude was that they needed everything and that their yards would be full building for the RN and rebuilding the commercial fleet.  Ironically not long after many of the old ships were being scrapped and the new ones cancelled.

I do like the idea of a KGV being offered up with the CVLs bought at the same time.  The trick would have been to transfer new build ships late war with payment scheduled for after the war.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2013, 04:26:20 AM »
Actually on thinking on it some more if the UK had an active battleship building program it would make sense to sell and transfer existing ships to free up crews for the new ones.  So batch 1 KGVs in service, batch 2 (with 16")guns entering service and batch 3 (lend lease 16/50", Vanguard hull, basically improved Lions) on the slips.

On the Vanguard, I had a computer game years ago, a naval warfare sim, where you could delay the start of WWII. This delay gave Germany plan H, Japan all their Yamatos, the US 6 Iowas and the Montanas, while the UK got their Lions and interestingly multiple Vanguards. The idea was as the Lions entered service QEs and Revenges were retired to free up crews and the 15" turrets were removed, refurbished and reused on additional Vanguards.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2013, 05:46:00 AM »
Flgiht One KGV's being rebuilt as carriers or "battlecarriers" (depends on whether before or after harrier becomes available)?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2013, 10:13:34 AM »
Flgiht One KGV's being rebuilt as carriers or "battlecarriers" (depends on whether before or after harrier becomes available)?

or at least helo carriers, the aft turret could even be retained and the helos moved down past it to hangers between the funnels if the after pair of %-35" are removed in each side.  Maybe even a helo arrangement akin to that on the proposed Type 43 Destroyer with the helos landing between the funnels.

Offline Weaver

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2013, 11:43:07 AM »
What you might be able to do is remove the P & S 2 & 3 turrets, build a big hangar through the middle of the ship on the former catapult deck, then have helo pads on the roof of it to either side, with an elevator in between the funnels.

Alternatively, for a 1950's "nuclear bonkers" feel, how about leaving the structure pretty much alone but re-fitting the hangar and catapult deck to house and fire a nuclear cruise missile along the lines of a Regulus? This might just about be an actual justification for keeping expensive but hard to sink battleship hull in service.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2013, 02:46:50 PM »
I like it, and a MR/LR SAM in place of B turret, possibly also Tartar in place of P & S 1 & 4.  The entire class could be retained under the justification of nuclear deterrent.

Taking it a step further, both Long Beach, Giuseppe Garibaldi and a number of other cruisers were fitted for but not with Polaris, maybe the KGVs could have been as well as an eventual replacement for Regulus instead of or as an interim capability preceding the SSBN fleet. 

Looking at the plan view of the KGV it has a very wide beam and the Sea harrier has a wing span of only 7.6 m.  If the superstructure aft of the second funnel was cleared, all the 5.35" turrets removed and plated over to the same height as the boat deck with the same done to the original catapult you would have a lot of deck space for such a small aircraft.

Offline Weaver

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2013, 04:46:59 PM »
I like it, and a MR/LR SAM in place of B turret, possibly also Tartar in place of P & S 1 & 4.  The entire class could be retained under the justification of nuclear deterrent.

The problem with a launcher in the B turret position is that the muzzle blast from A turret will probably trash it. I'd be inclined to put big SAMs on escorting cruisers: I've long harboured a scheme to put Sea slug on the Airfix Belfast...

The Tartars in P & S 1 & 4 positions would probably work, and of course, in those days, Tartar was seen as a short range system (about 11 miles IIRC?), so it would be justified as a "self-defence" weapon to compliment the escorts' Sea Slugs. At the time, no one was thinking in terms of sea-skimmers, PDMS and CIWS....

My inclination for B-turret would be to remove it and build a complete new, fully-enclosed bridge structure over it, that would provide a decent NBC "citadel" (another difficulty with adapting WWII ships to the nuclear age, BTW) and more volume for command spaces. Look to the Swedish Tre Kronors per and post refit to see the kind of thing I mean.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2013, 11:05:15 PM »
A BBBG (Battleship Ballistic Missile Guided Missile)  :o would probably warrant the, cancelled in real life, 6" gunned CG (maybe even the Talos / Tartar variant MAP?), the guided missile escort helicopter cruiser, a new generation CVL for air defence and ASW as well as CLGs and ASW / GP frigates, not to mention SSNs.  All of this would be expensive but maybe not as expensive and the SSBN project and would be far more useful in anything short of a nuclear war.

Offline Weaver

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2013, 11:12:48 PM »
Yes, but unlike the SSBNs, it would be vulnerable to a pre-emptive nuclear strike. It would also be highly visible, and highly provocative, for a BBBG group to be seen to be putting itself in position to make a strike. You could also argue that the very specialised nature of SSBNs prevents them from being diverted away from the deterrence mission and "frittered away" by politicians, who are notorious for their short-termism. 
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Offline jcf

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2013, 11:34:17 PM »
Yes, but unlike the SSBNs, it would be vulnerable to a pre-emptive nuclear strike. It would also be highly visible, and highly provocative, for a BBBG group to be seen to be putting itself in position to make a strike. You could also argue that the very specialised nature of SSBNs prevents them from being diverted away from the deterrence mission and "frittered away" by politicians, who are notorious for their short-termism.

SSBNs being quite literally out of sight - out of mind;D
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2013, 11:36:37 PM »
Agreed, but this is good because when it comes time to replace Polaris the UK opts for Trident and SSBNs.  The BBBGs have their ballistic missile tubes removed effectively converting them into BBGs before being placed in reserve, leaving the RN with a number of very flexible, capable and balanced light carrier groups. 

When required during the mid 80s the BBGs are reactivated with Tartar updated to standard and Tomahawk fitted in multiple armored box launches is fitted.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 10:47:17 PM »
Ok started building, found a Revell / Matchbox Duke of York but not a Nelson or Rodney to be seen, didn't really feel like doing a US turret so the 16" Batch 2 is out.  Lots of spare bits from various modern Dragon warship kits.

My current thinking:
  • Mk6 twin 4.5" in P&S 1&4
  • Mk13 Tartar in P&S 2
  • Mk10 Terrier in P&S 3 (missile magazines in deck house over old aircraft catapult)
  • or Ikara (if I can find the HMS Perth DDG kit I know I have somewhere) in P&S 3(missile magazines in deck house over old aircraft catapult)
  • Seacat in super structure somewhere
I also have Phalanx, Goalkeeper, Seawolf, Sea Sparrow, Breda Bofors twins Harpoon, Exocet and Tomahawk.  Trying to work out the best place for helo facilities.

All those left over 5.25" twins, what to do?

I do have a 1/600 MPC(Airfix) County Class DLG, Scalorama 158.53m becomes 184.9m in 1/700. 

1950's notional Cruiser/Destroyer was designed to kill Sverdlovs with 5"/70 rapid fire guns.  These guns were evolved from the 5.25" twin, the twin was too heavy for the Cruiser/Destroyer so a single was developed, this design was never built but elements of it found their way onto the County, i.e. the COSAG propulsion and possibly hull form.......

About the same time France had Degrasse and Colbert with multiple 5"L54 twins......

UK builds a class of 10000ton gun/missile cruisers with multiple 5"L70 and ? missiles, type 984 radar etc.....Batch 1 have Tartar and Seacat, Batch 2 built in the early 70s have Sea Dart and Sea Wolf.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2013, 06:23:37 AM »
Agreed, but this is good because when it comes time to replace Polaris the UK opts for Trident and SSBNs.  The BBBGs have their ballistic missile tubes removed effectively converting them into BBGs before being placed in reserve, leaving the RN with a number of very flexible, capable and balanced light carrier groups. 

When required during the mid 80s the BBGs are reactivated with Tartar updated to standard and Tomahawk fitted in multiple armored box launches is fitted.

Why fit the Tomahawks into armored box launchers?  Use something like the drop-in Tomahawk cells used to convert some Ohio-class boats from SSBN's to SSGN's.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2013, 06:57:02 AM »
Agreed, but this is good because when it comes time to replace Polaris the UK opts for Trident and SSBNs.  The BBBGs have their ballistic missile tubes removed effectively converting them into BBGs before being placed in reserve, leaving the RN with a number of very flexible, capable and balanced light carrier groups. 

When required during the mid 80s the BBGs are reactivated with Tartar updated to standard and Tomahawk fitted in multiple armored box launches is fitted.

Why fit the Tomahawks into armored box launchers?  Use something like the drop-in Tomahawk cells used to convert some Ohio-class boats from SSBN's to SSGN's.
Depends on timing, the SLBM tube option is a 90s development based on Trident tubes.  Not saying it couldn't be done just that it would require the ships having the empty tubes sitting there for a couple of decades.

I had a thought on where to locate Polaris, drop four tubes into B barbette.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 07:09:17 AM »
The same approach, with a smaller number of Tomahawks could be applied to Polaris tubes.  So you get four or five instead of six in, that's still quite a Tomahawk capability.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 11:32:24 AM »
Very true and in the pre-START days it you could have deployed nuke tipped Tomahawks

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 10:45:02 PM »
Ok worked out the back story.

With Japans non-ratification of the Second London Naval Treaty the escalation clause was triggered leading to the immediate order for 5 Lion Class Battleships and the recognition of Japan as a threat to Britain's interests saw Jellicoes plans for the defence of the dominions dusted off.  A resurgent Germany and fascist Spain and Italy were also of concern so the decision was made to work around the provisions of the London Treaty through the structural separation of the RAN and RNZN from the RN.

The result of this was the reformation of the RAN Fleet unit built around the transferred HMS Repulse and the planned formation of a second Fleet Unit to be based on the transferred HMS Renown and a third, to remain RN to be built around HMS Hood and based in Singapore.

The scale of rearmament required was daunting and the decision was made in May 1937 for the UK yards to concentrate on new construction while Cockatoo Island Dockyard in Sydney Australia would be expanded to permit the modernisation, refit and repair of capital ships.  The first ship to undergo modernisation at Cockatoo was HMS Repulse which received an identical modernisation to that received by Renown, followed by Hood, Furious, and Glorious. 

During the early phases of the war the RAN served along side the RN but with Japans entry to the conflict both RAN Fleet Units, including the carriers Furious and Glorious, returned to Australian waters.  During the Battle of Savo Island HMAS Repulse was struck by a pair of Long lance torpedos and while she was saved the damage to her was severe requiring her to return to Cockatoo for repair.  A survey of the damage revealed her to be a constructional loss leading to the transfer of HMS Duke of York to the RAN as a replacement.


This gets me both Renown and Duke of York in the RAN by the mid 40s with both modernised and retained post war with Cockatoo Island capable of conducting major work on capitals for future upgrades.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2013, 07:51:48 AM »
Found this on Armorama:



Full article here.
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2013, 01:24:21 PM »
That is incredible.  Just gorgeous.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2013, 05:16:53 PM »
Wow!

Offline finsrin

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2013, 06:01:20 PM »
OMG  WOW - yes, INCREDIBLE  :o
Like the B&W treatment.  Same as most WW2 photos.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Offline mrvr6

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2014, 09:11:41 PM »
OMG  WOW - yes, INCREDIBLE  :o
Like the B&W treatment.  Same as most WW2 photos.

it isnt b&w but it is mindblowingly good  :-*

Offline Volkodav

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2014, 12:02:06 AM »
Another thought stuck my mind, what if the UK had continued with the Nelson type layout with all main guns forward on the KGVs.  Two superfiring quad 14" forward aircraft arrangements, cats, hangers etc. and most 5.25" aft.  In fact why not forget the 5.25" and stick with the 4.5" and have dozens of them fore and aft. or even 6' or 8' aft in conjunction with the 4.5".  Boats and cranes between the funnels.

Ideal for post war missile conversion with the hangers being used for missiles and helo facilities build above the new missile magazines.  Imagining US MK7 Talos launcher as used on CLG conversions but with double mag for 80 missiles and two finning rooms for each arm, doubling rate of fire 4 or more directors to increase number of missiles in flight.  Tartar often figured in RN thinking as a point defence missile system, thinking MK11, 13, 22 GMLS 2 launchers each with two directors replacing some of the 4.5" near the midriff.  Many of the ships boats replaced with landing craft and heavy davits, LCPV up to LCM or even LCU in size Hangers built adjacent funnels for vehicles up to MBT in size plus troop accommodations.  Amphibious Assault, Command, NGS, Guided Missile Battleship! ;D  Falklands here we come!

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2014, 01:05:37 PM »
Did you know that original project of KGV class was to have 12 x 14in guns in 3 quadruple turrets?




Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2014, 07:11:11 PM »
Yep

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2014, 12:29:56 AM »
The last sole remaining model shop in Darwin just got a new batch of kits in including Tamiya 1/700 KGV, PoW and Nelson, I grabbed KGV and Nelsol  8)
Still have the Revell kit of Duke of York on the workbench but much more impressed with the Tamiya kits, thinking about going back for PoW. 

Nelson, I think, will become a twin quad 14" gunned BC / fast BB with both turrets forward and the superstructure moved forward over the original C (or was it Q) barbette and a second funnel added aft for the dramatically expanded engineering plant.  May retain the 6" turrets or maybe rob the 5.25" turrets from the Revell kit, may fit catapult(s) and hanger(s).  My thinking is this is the RN counter to the Deutschlands and Scharnhorsts based on the Nelsons to save time but employing elements of the upcoming KGVs, including a simpler, less complicated, hence lighter and more reliable 14" turret.  Initially two are ordered then another three which are in turn followed by five batch I (14") and five batch II (16") KGVs.

Post WWII the batch II KGVs were retained in service while the batch I ships were transferred to Commonwealth navies and the Nelson BCs were retained in reserve prior to being upgraded to missile ships (Terrier installed aft).   The batch II KGVs went into reserve as the BCGs entered service before being upgraded themselves in the late 50s, early 60s (Tartar / Polaris).  Or the RN retains the 14" gunned batch I ships and transfers the 16" batch IIs.  Either way, some of the Commonwealth ships are subsequently upgraded, less Polaris.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2014, 12:02:57 AM »
The more I think on it the more I feel like doing a modernised Nelson BC with two quad 14" forward and guided missiles and helicopters aft.  The 16" triples will end up on one of my KGVs as a Batch II ship, possibly with post war mods.

Offline Sunk

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2020, 09:58:14 PM »
Hello all!

I found this thread whilst googling for info on KGV post war modifications, a favourite "what if" having concluded, like DNC that bringing the cruisers into the missile age was too difficult!

The essential requirement seems to be:

1) Something large enough to deter a Sverdlov
2) Something large enough to carry a useful magazine of missiles, plus their associated guidance radars. Ideally two launchers with four radars to tackle inbound Badger raids, with enough magazine capacity to take on another raid a few hours later.
3) Something big enough to carry a 984 3D radar for fighter direction- fighters provided by an accompanying Light Fleet.
4) ..and recently added, something big enough to carry Britains contribution to the Multilateral Nuclear Force, ie Polaris

Fag packet calculations determined that a KGV could provide three times the combat power of a Fiji class cruiser whilst requiring only twice the crew (vital factor in post war RN).

The essential problem for the RN in this period wasn't one of ships, but of role. IMO the RN's inability to read the economics and its institutional desire to keep up with the USN really set the scene for its demise in 1966. For the battleships to survive requires the loss of the strike carriers and its remaining cruisers- simply not possible in any realistic scenario to posit a post war RN with battleships, strike carriers and cruisers, plus all the fast escorts needed to hunt down fast submarines. So the scenario is a much contracted RN (in terms of an aggressive role) but one which focusses on a defensive role in the North Atlantic and a constabulary role EoS, supported by Commonwealth allies in the RCN and RAN.

My trusty fag packet reckons that if the RN gave up:

The four strike carriers
Eight Counties
Three Tigers plus Belfast and all remaining Fiji's

They could have crewed:

Three Centaurs
Three Majestics
Four KGV's
Two QE's

..giving it six "Escort Groups". Each EG would comprise a Light Fleet plus a supporting battleship and six fast escorts. Four EG's would form the Home Fleet ready for duties in the GIUK/N Atlantic and providing a CASD with Polaris armed KGV's, whilst Force H would perform its traditional swing role from Gib reinforcing the Atlantic. ME or Far East as required. Another EG (Force Z?!) would support the RAN in the Asia/Pacific from Singapore (naturally).

As for plastic, I've completed a quick n dirty HMS Valiant as the first battleship converted to a missile/FD role- with a single Terrier (sorry Sea Slug fans) aft and a 984, retaining its guns forward but secondaries replaced with Vickers 3in twins. Not much else but this is the first of a series. In build atm is the second conversion- HMS Malaya with the hangers/cat area completely gone allowing a more compact superstructure. Funnel gas impact on the aft mounted 984 is an issue...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 10:00:10 PM by Sunk »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2020, 07:54:30 PM »
Nice!

What scale and where did you get the Type 984 Dustbin?

Offline Sunk

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Re: King George V Class Battleships ideas and inspirations
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2020, 08:33:48 PM »
Hi Volkodav- 1/700 Trumpeter kit- I fabbed the 984 up using a BIC pen cap and some placcy card (: A bit of progress on Malaya- makes quite a difference with the hangers & cat removed. Sketching out a Polaris/Talos KGV at the moment..
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 08:40:18 PM by Sunk »