Author Topic: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.  (Read 2950 times)

Offline perttime

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Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« on: May 12, 2013, 02:50:00 PM »
This is not a new idea ... but what happens next?

After German forces were defeated in the Ardennes in summer 1940, things went downhill for Adolf Hitler in a hurry. By the end of 1941, Nazi Germany was no more. All was well in Europe again. Er ... Right? ... Well, not quite ... Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, "Father of Nations", "Brilliant Genius of Humanity", "Gardener of Human Happiness", Stalin, saw some opportunities in the defeat of Nazi Germany. A quick realignment of alliances followed, as it was clear that the Soviet Union was intent on continued expansion. Another war could not reasonably be avoided. With all the resources of western Europe, and some help from USA, it was thought that USSR would soon cease fighting. It turned out not to be quite that easy.

My version, for Northern Europe starts:
Up North, Finland - with a population of less than 4 million - had been fighting a second war of survival after a short "Interim Peace" against the mighty Soviet Union. Inevitably, some ground had been lost but that started to change in 1942. With new-old friends, the supply of war material was improved.

As it turned out, all of the Soviet Union needed to be occupied to some degree, and southern Nations were not all that eager to take on the West Siberian Plain. By the end of 1952......


What happens elsewhere?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 12:29:32 PM »
With Nazi Germany defeated, would Japan go ahead and attack in the Pacific as she did?  If so, what response would she get considering that she's now attacking nations that can concentrate on her more.  The other thought is that, since she's threatened, albeit not directly at the moment, by the Stalinist Soviet Union (though I could see "Uncle Joe" making moves that way), would she swallow a lot and align with the powers fighting the expansionist Soviet Union, setting the stage for a subsequent conflict with her former allies?  Lots of possibilities here.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2013, 01:26:55 PM »
We were already "former allies", as Japan fought against the Central Powers during WW1.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 02:01:22 AM »
Well, yes, that is how they acquired several of the Pacifici islands formerly claimed by Imperial Germany.  The dynamics of any allicne they'd have with an anti-Soviet Alliance would be most interesting.

Offline perttime

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 11:15:57 PM »
Is it just me or is it easy to imagine most of Europe aligning against expansionist USSR, but hard to figure out what could have happened in the Far East?

Was everybody between Europe and Japan too weak or too divided to become actively involved?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 02:36:26 AM »
Well I suppose one scenario is the the USSR doesn't invade but you still end up with a Socialist Germany as a backlash against the Nazis
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 04:17:23 AM »
With a name like "National Socialist Party", I'd reckon the Nazi's might have soured them on Socialism.  It makes you wonder if they might try something a bit more freedom-oriented in reaction.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 09:53:50 AM »
With a name like "National Socialist Party", I'd reckon the Nazi's might have soured them on Socialism.  <...>

Seriously? Are you assuming a similarity between Socialism and the Nazis or that the Nazis were socialists? The name was NSDAP - Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party). Note that the German term "nationalsozialistisch" is one word, because it's not simply a "national" form of "socialism" (as the separation in English might make it appear), but something very different from Socialism. Both the Communist Party (KPD) and the Social Democratic Party (SPD) were outlawed under Nazi rule, their followers persecuted, imprisoned and, in many cases, executed. The SPD was the only party (the communists had already been imprisoned) to vote against the Enabling Act of 1933 that would firmly establish Nazi rule.
The only three letters of NSDAP they actually cared for were NS and D - Nationalsozialistisch and Deutsch. Arbeiterpartei was propaganda, merely to appear constitutional and to attract voters. Had they been honest, they'd have called themselves the
"Partei zum Voranbringen der Arischen Rasse, zur Eliminierung der Juden und der Kommunisten, zur Errichtung des Führerstaats und für ein Grossdeutschland vom Atlantik bis zum Pazifik"
(Party for the Promotion of the Aryan Race, the Elimination of Jews and Communists and a Greater Germany from the Atlantic to the Pacific)  - PVAREJKEFGAP.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 12:08:25 PM »
Well, yes, the Nazis were a "sect" of socialism, much as the fascists and communists were and are.  That both are "sects" derived from the same basic belief system explains the intense combativeness between them (same as between communism and fascism - fact, in 1905 Lenin was very unhappy that he wasn't able to sway Benito Mussolini to his version of socialism).   Much the same combativeness can be observed between "sects" of other religious origins. 

I'd best stop here before I get too deep into politics.  I will refer those seeking more to Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 04:33:23 PM »
Guys, my suggestion was meant to be read that I would imagine the Nazis getting beaten could have given the impetus for the left wing forces to take power. 
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 08:28:20 PM »
Ah, transnational socialists (i.e. communists and similar radicals) as opposed to national socialists?  I could see that happening given the strictures the Nazis already had in place (their 1938 gun control law effectively disarming the populace at large, forex).

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 09:14:02 PM »
Another possibility is civil war in Germany, with the USSR taking advantage of everyone focussing on that to try retaking Poland & various other former Tsarist Russian holdings.

The British would have been drawn into that because of their treaties with Poland, France because of its treaties with Britain, the Czech's because of their treaties with France, et al., & the US may well have come in sooner, I believe, against the scourge of Expansionist Communism.

:icon_punal: C:-)

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 09:34:49 PM »
Or the US could sit back as Europe sorted out things themselves, resut, the US never becomes a super power

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 12:34:18 AM »
<...>
I will refer those seeking more to Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism.

 ;D Yeah, we'd better stop here, then.
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Nazi Germany is defeated 1940-41.
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2013, 05:23:40 AM »
Getting back to the original scenario postulated, I can see a couple of possible options developing:

  • USSR invades Western Europe - the "Suvorov option":  This would involve the USSR invading Germany in the Summer of 1941 and capitalising on the disarray already present in a defeated Germany.  Even if the Nazis had been toppled, I can image a clique (say, led by someone like Goering or even Hitler himself (possibly from a gaol cell), claiming "I was right all along...see!!!")  In such a case would we possibly even see many of the Nazis re-accepted into the mainstream?  Especially possible since in 1941, the worst of the holocaust wouldn't have occurred.  It would be interesting to see how far the Soviet invasion would reach given the west was already mobilised and in the field. One could see Germany being turned into a battle ground by the likes of France, Great Britain etc.  One might also see an offensive from Scandinavia since there was a lot of fear of the USSR after Finland.
  • Peace Reigns:  In this sceanrio, there is no continued war (at least in Europe - Japan being a different issue).  Germany is returned to being a democracy, possibly more closely watched by the West.  However, if enlightened forces correctly identified the rise of the Nazis as being due to a combination of forces such as the frustrations felt by the Treaty of Versailles and the Economic fallout of the Great Depression and that they then welcomed Germany 'into the fold' and had investment etc (much as occurred in the real world after WWII), then maybe we could see a more peaceful post WWII scenario.  Not sure if you would have seen the rapid development of jets etc until much later (say '50s) but maybe something more akin to a developed '20s/'30s type environment.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!