Author Topic: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family (and Scorpion turret users) - Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 20687 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Just a thought, a NEMO 120mm mortar turret on a Scorpion, to replace the 76mm gun, or on a Spartan as a fire support vehicle upgrade.

A surviellance varient with a mast mounted multi sensor head.

A SPAAG with a single 35mm to support the Stormer HMV, maybe a radar equiped Stormer as well.

An M777 armed SPG or Portee Stormer

A L118 Light Gun armed SPG or Portee Spartan

A Delco turreted CVR(T)

A 35 or 40mm armed CVR(T)

A 60mm HVMS gun armed CVR(T)

A 76mm Oto Melara armed CVR(T) (similar to the one in the Rooikat)

From memory the original 76mm in the Scorpion was retired as the gasses / residue from the guns propellant was found the be toxic / carcinogenic and dangerous to the crews.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »
True there were a stack in war stocks and also in reserve units but that sort of ruins a good back story with facts.  I believe there were actually many more than 800 in total as there were a significant number of written off US Army vehicles we repatriated from Vietnam.  Many of those were the original petrol / gasoline powered vehicles, upgraded with the 6V53 and can be identified by the bolted panel around the fuel filler cap on the top left of the hull, we had a couple of these in my old unit.

Interesting but doubtful.  Why would they be repatriated to Australia when they were US military property?   Our initial purchase were of the petrol engined version but all were converted very quickly to the a1 with the diesel as I understand it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
From memory the original 76mm in the Scorpion was retired as the gasses / residue from the guns propellant was found the be toxic / carcinogenic and dangerous to the crews.

As far as the UK is concerned, the reason why they were retired was because of the Convention Forces in Europe Treaty which ended the Cold War.   Under the treaty, anything with a gun greater than 75mm in calibre was counted as a tank.  If the choice was between an MBT and a CVR(T), you can guess which won...

Downunder they were retired because of a lack of ammunition, it being imported from the UK which had ceased to make it.

The gas story was a convenient excuse.  It could have been handled in several ways.  Addition of a  fume extractor/an extractor fan or an increase in the NBC system's overpressure.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2013, 09:28:54 PM »
True there were a stack in war stocks and also in reserve units but that sort of ruins a good back story with facts.  I believe there were actually many more than 800 in total as there were a significant number of written off US Army vehicles we repatriated from Vietnam.  Many of those were the original petrol / gasoline powered vehicles, upgraded with the 6V53 and can be identified by the bolted panel around the fuel filler cap on the top left of the hull, we had a couple of these in my old unit.

Interesting but doubtful.  Why would they be repatriated to Australia when they were US military property?   Our initial purchase were of the petrol engined version but all were converted very quickly to the a1 with the diesel as I understand it.
They were written off as total losses, RAEME recovered and repaired them.  We had one vehicle in my old unit that had aledgedly run over a mine killing the driver after blowing off the track front two road wheels and sprocket, it was still running in the late 90's and for all I know may have been upgraded since.

Offline Gingie

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Glad to see this thread bumped. I've been thinking of a Canadian tracked recce vehicle, Scimitar but with LAV-25 turret, Diehl or Soucy tracks, and a mast. Alternatively, a Warrior IFV shortened hull, again with a LAV 25 turret (there was at least one of these mocked up, I think by BAE, I'll look for the pic), or as we'd discussed in the LAV-25 thread, the upper half of an AVGP, shortened and grafted to a M-113 lower hull. Though the latter one is getting close to the Lynx C&R, albeit with a front mounted engine.

Offline Weaver

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Glad to see this thread bumped. I've been thinking of a Canadian tracked recce vehicle, Scimitar but with LAV-25 turret, Diehl or Soucy tracks, and a mast. Alternatively, a Warrior IFV shortened hull, again with a LAV 25 turret (there was at least one of these mocked up, I think by BAE, I'll look for the pic), or as we'd discussed in the LAV-25 thread, the upper half of an AVGP, shortened and grafted to a M-113 lower hull. Though the latter one is getting close to the Lynx C&R, albeit with a front mounted engine.


The Stormer recce vehicle would probably be ideal for that. Although it's nowadays called the Stormer 30 and has an OTO-Melara Hitfist turret, I think I'm right in saying that when it first came out, it had a Delco turret.

There's a British company called Repaircraft who do all sorts of mods for the Scorpion including diesel engines and improved track: it's repaircraft that keep the Scorpion the holder of the tank world speed record: http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/html/ContentsPage.html (They also supply 76mm ammo, so it IS still available).

Model-wise, you could get what you want by doing my proposed turret swap but between an AFV Club Scorpion and a Trumpeter LAV-25.
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Offline Weaver

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Another possible Scorpion turret user...

MOWAG produced a long line of APC/MICV prototypes called the Pirate/Taifun/Tornado, none of which ever entered production. The mid-1970s version of these had a mid-mounted engine with the troop compartment behind it and the driver/commander/gunner in front of it. All the pictures I can find show it with a one-man 20mm turret in bewtween the driver and commander, but I've read that an alternative scheme had it armed with a Scorpion turret instead.

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All the pictures I can find show it with a one-man 20mm turret in bewtween the driver and commander,



Not sure about the Scorpion turret but I have also seen these variations:





All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Weaver

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Found the original reference now: Jane's AFVs 1976 edition (I love old reference books...)

It's a proposed Italian variant based on the MOWAG Taifun called the OTO-Melara O-F 24 Tifone. It had basically the same layout as the Taifun, but with a 2-man turret to the right of the driver, and it came in three flavours:

Mk.1 fitted with a Scorpion turret with limited traverse... ???

Mk.2 fitted with a Fiat 6616M armoured car turret with a 20mm Rh.202 cannon (I don't see why this quite bulky turret could manage 360 deg rotation while the Scorpion one couldn't)

MK.2 fitted with a turret with twin Rh.202 with 85 deg elevation.

All versions retained the twin remote 7.62mm MGs seen on the Taifuns rear corners.

Unfortunately, there are still no photos: even the photo for the article is that of the Taifun which I've already posted.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline dy031101

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Mk.1 fitted with a Scorpion turret with limited traverse... ???

Are we talking about a Italian BMP-1 or just another light tank?

From the look of Taifun the rearward field of fire is probably very limited to begin with......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Helio turrets.

Helio are a British company that produce a range of 1-man turrets and cupolas, a couple of which have been fitted to CVR(T) family vehicles, either for trials or production:

FVT925 turret on Scorpion chassis. This turret has a 25mm Bushmaster and a 7.62mm co-ax:




FVT900 turret on a Stormer APC. This turret has a 20mm Oerlikon KAA ans a 7.62mm co-ax:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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It looks like the Phillipines have made some M113 FSVs of their own by adding Scorpion turrets to them:

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=94lkv5trrdlrs70kdmu8u0ksm1&topic=4025.0

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Mk.1 fitted with a Scorpion turret with limited traverse... ???

Are we talking about a Italian BMP-1 or just another light tank?

From the look of Taifun the rearward field of fire is probably very limited to begin with......

Italian BMP-1 in effect.... driver plus turret at the front, engine in the middle, 6 infantry with two remote MGs + firing ports in the back.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Mowag wasn't really really set up to carry out large scale production itself of it's designs.  It relied more on licensing it's designs out, to other nations and was quite successful in mainly Latin and Southern America before it hit the big time with the Canadian LAVs.   The Mowag Pirate was IIRC the basis for the Jagdpanzer Canone and Rakete series of SPAT vehicles.  It also greatly influenced the Marder MICV.    The Pirate, IIRC even had two SS11 ATGW missiles, one each side of the engine, in flip-up boxes which raised only at the front.  Mowag hawked their MICV designs around for a couple of decades but apart from a technology sale to Germany, never really found a buyer.

Offline Weaver

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Not exactly: MOWAG participated in the design of the Jpz Kanone and built some of the prototypes, but then produced their own version using essentially the same upper hull on the Torando running gear and engine. It didn't sell. MOWAG did indeed influence the Marder: they also built 1/3 of the (many) prototypes and were a major sub-contractor for the production vehicles, supplying the rear MG mount, the firing ports and the seating.

I havn't heard of SS-11s, but there was a version of the Pirate or Tornado which had two Bofors Bantam ATGWs in flip-up boxes.

MOWAG has a fair bit of production capacity in Switzerland, but you're right: they can't meet a major order without sub-contracting. The major subbies were Alvis in the UK (built the Saudi Piranhas), Cardoen in Chile who later lost the contract to FAMAE and, of course GM Canada.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:01:58 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith