Author Topic: Missiles on gun tanks  (Read 25260 times)

Offline Weaver

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Missiles on gun tanks
« on: February 21, 2013, 09:11:26 PM »
What I mean by this is not single-purpose ATGW vehicles on a tank chassis, but rather a vehicle (we'll allow wheels too) that has a turret with a substantial gun in it AND an ATGW capability. Most of these proposals were never built for obvious reasons to do with reloads and reloading, but they were mostly workable and so would make an interesting What If, if a suitable backstory could be concocted.

I think they fall into two categories:

1. Gun-launched ATGWs:

Sheridan with Shillelagh (service)
M60A2 with Shillelagh (service)
MBT-70 with Shillelagh prototypes only)
T-55 with 9K116-1 "Bastion" ATGW (service)
T-62 with 9K116-2 "Sheksna"  ATGW (service)
T-72/80 etc with 9M119 "Svir/Refleks" ATGW (service)
BMP-3 with 9K116-1 "Bastion" ATGW (service)
Israeli LAHAT missile used from various 105/120mm gun-armed tanks

AMX-30 with ACRA (a 142mm gun/launcher: abandoned due to cost):





2. Separate guns and ATGWs

AMX-13 with SS-11.   One of the few such designs that actually went into service. 2 x twin SS-11 on open rails on front of turret, either side of gun barrel.




AMX-13 with HOT. Proposed replacement for above. 2 x triple HOT boxes on either side of the turret. Close to adoption, but the French Army changed it's ideas on ATGWs and bought the VAB Mephisto instead.



The early version had 2 x quad HOT launchers:




Vickers Mk.2 MBT with Swingfire. This was a Mk.1 fitted with 2 x twin Swingfire boxes on either side of a modified turret bustle. Mock-up only.




M47 with Swingfire. Similar proposal to above, fitted with 2 x twin Swingfire boxes on either side of a modified turret bustle. Mock-up only.




Saladin with Swingfire. Standard armored car fitted with 2 x single Swingfire boxes on either side of the turret. Mock-up only.




Centurion with Swingfire. Seems to be basically the same system as the one on the Vickers Mk.2 Mock-up only.



 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 03:18:02 AM by Weaver »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2013, 01:53:46 AM »
Pics added.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 02:43:26 AM »
So many ideas...don't know where to start.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Online Frank3k

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 02:52:25 AM »
There's also the M901 ITV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M901_ITV) based on the M113.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 03:19:49 AM »
There's also the M901 ITV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M901_ITV) based on the M113.


Yes, but that's not a gun tank with extra ATGWs, is it? Its a dedicated ATGW carrier (i.e. it can't do anything else except fire ATGWs) based on an APC.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 03:49:39 AM »
What If ideas on this theme

I suppose the main question is why would you want to add missiles to a tank? I can see roughly three rationales for it (note that I don't necessarily agree with any of these personally, but this is how the thinking might go):


1. ATGWs on a Main Battle Tank.

The only reason I can see for doing this is to extend the tank's engagement range and maintain lethality out to maximum range. In the period where most of these schemes were proposed ('60s/'70s), heavy ATGWs comfortably out-ranged tank guns and a HEAT warhead is just as lethal whatever speed it's doing, whereas an APFSDS round gets less lethal as it slows down with distance travelled.

This argument is probably most persuasive for the lightly-armoured 1960s "protection-through-speed" MBTs such as the Leo I, AMX-30 and Vickers MBT, since they can least afford a point-blank slugging match with any gun of three-figure calibre, and so they have a vested interest in thinning out the opposition at the greatest possible range. Problems are quantity of reloads, difficulty of reloading and increased fire/explosion hazard.

Whiff ideas:

Pz.61/68 with ATGWs (not sure if there's a kit).

T-55/T-62 with external ATGWs instead of gun-launched ones.

Leo-1/AMX-30 with ATGWs.



2. Light Tanks/Armoured Cars with ATGWs.

This is possibly the most useful option, as the AMX-13/SS-11 demonstrates. A vehicle whose primary function is recce/escort/screening may very well come up against enemy MBTs yet it can't possibly carry a tank-killing gun because it's too small and light. Adding ATGWs gives it some "equalisers". Difficulties are all the same as the MBT platform, but less significant since any tank-killing rounds (even a small number) are better than none, and light tanks in combat with MBTs are chronically vunerable anyway.

Whiff ideas:

M41 Walker Bulldog with M47/Vickers MBT style ATGWs (not neccessarily Swingfire). This would be essentially a US version of the AMX-13+SS-11 combo.

M26 Chaffee: as above. Installation probably more like the Saladin/Swingfire setup.

PT-76 with AT-3 Sagger mounted over the gun in similar style to the BMP (this is another one which I find it hard to believe hasn't been tried for real).


3. Retro-fitted oldies.

You might imagine a nation with a fleet of WWII leftover tanks which can't, for political or economic reasons, get them replaced or refitted abroad, and doesn't have the heavy engineering design & production capability to up-gun them locally. It is, however, a lot easier to bolt rails/boxes to the outside of a tank than it is to fit it with a new gun, and it's also quite easy to disguise the origin of an illegally copied ATGW with minor changes to fin shape and box style.

Whiff ideas:

Put "local" versions of any early ATGW onto any of the following platforms, chosen for their post-war availability:

M4 Sherman
M3/M5 Stuart
M26 Chaffee
Comet
T-34/76
T-34/85
M8 Greyhound
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 04:34:46 AM »
PT-76 with AT-3 Sagger mounted over the gun in similar style to the BMP (this is another one which I find it hard to believe hasn't been tried for real).

Put "local" versions of any early ATGW onto any of the following platforms, chosen for their post-war availability:
M8 Greyhound


Variations on both of these ideas were tried.



Quote
PT-71: PT-76 fitted with 'Malyutka' anti-tank guided weapons system.






Quote
NAPCO M8 TOW: The Colombian M8 TOW is equipped with the M220 launcher on top of the open turret. The 37mm gun is replaced by a .50 calibre M2. There a three missiles inside the vehicle, one on the turret rear and one in the launcher. The tripod is carried on the right side of the hull, towards the rear. Colombia has some 6 vehicles of this type.


Cheers,

Logan

Offline finsrin

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 05:46:33 AM »
Do like your Retro-fitted oldies platform suggestions  :)
That M8 is soooo good  :)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 11:23:31 AM »
Cheers Logan - I thought I'd seen Sagger on the PT-76, but I couldn't find a reference to it and was beginning to think I'd imagined it.

The M8-TOW is very interesting, although I'm not sure that it fits the criteria, since it's 37mm gun has been replaced by a .50 cal, which puts it more into the category of a dedicated ATGW carrier since it's only gun is a small-calibre self-defence weapon. This is the same reason why I exclude the Ferret with Vigilant or Swingfire: yes, it's got a gun turret, but the only gun is a 7.62mm MG, so it's not significantly different to a Striker in capability.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 11:32:38 AM »
1. ATGWs on a Main Battle Tank.


The fact that Taiwan actually copied the Malyutka ATGM gave me an idea of a M48 turret with a bustle that actually serves as a compartment for Malyutka-copy launcher(s) la BRDM-1, possibly providing the missile system some protection against elements and hostile actions.

Is it practical to incorporate mechanism associated with top-attack capability into the Malyutka missile?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 11:35:07 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 11:54:53 AM »
More real-life projects, this time based on the Panhard AML armoured car. Neither of these went into production although they were developed enough to be offered as export options.

1. AML 60-7 with ENTAC. The paired ENTAC boxes slide out sideway from behind the turret for firing. Although this vehicle's only armed with a 60mm mortar and two 7.5mm MGs, I see no reason why a similar launcher couldn't be fitted to any tank or armored car turret :




2. AML 90 with SS-11. This is effectively a wheeled equivalent of the AMX-13 SS-11 carrier:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 05:28:33 PM »
Soviet T-62s were armed with ATGWs in the Soviet Army for a short period.  It was an experimental attempt at, as you point out, increasing the lethal range of the tank, as well as improving accuracy (ATGWs were until the advent of cheap computer FCS, more accurate than tank guns at extended ranges).  It took the form of a large box on the rear of the turret carrying a Drakon ATGW.  The same missile which features in the dedicated ATGW tank, the IT-1 Drakon.  Ace do a 1/72 version and Trumpeter a 1/35 one.  Not many of ether were made BTW (about an armoured Regiment IIRC).



More lately, the Russians have fielded tube-launched AT missiles, returning to the same idea as the Shillelagh and the ACRA, fired from the main gun tube.  The AT-11 Sniper is carried in two parts, in the normal autoloader, with the warhead and booster mated in the breech before firing.  It is of course 125mm in calibre.   There is also apparently a 100mm calibre version which can be fired from BMP-3 and even T-54/55 tanks (if retrofitted with the laser guidance system).

Offline Weaver

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 08:29:05 PM »
1. ATGWs on a Main Battle Tank.


The fact that Taiwan actually copied the Malyutka ATGM gave me an idea of a M48 turret with a bustle that actually serves as a compartment for Malyutka-copy launcher(s) la BRDM-1, possibly providing the missile system some protection against elements and hostile actions.

Is it practical to incorporate mechanism associated with top-attack capability into the Malyutka missile?


That's interesting - didn't know about that.  :)

The bustle-mounted pop-up launcher sounds good in theory - M48s don't have much of a bustle so there's certainly room. Might need some bars/rails to stop the wires getting tangled in the hatches/optics (see the M47/Swingfire pic, although those look a bit OTT).

Top attack involves mounting a shaped-charge warhead facing downwards in a (usually) tube-shaped missile which is not a very efficient "fit". In a modern, relatively fat missile airframe, you can get a top-attack warhead that's still a decent size, but I'm not sure about in a Malyutka, which is really, really small.....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 08:55:51 PM »
One I forgot to mention was the Peruvian adaptation using Sagger missiles on their T-55s.  Several missiles each side of the turret IIRC.



They've also adapted some of their AMX-13s, with Kornet-E ATGW:


Offline dy031101

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Re: Missiles on gun tanks
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 10:05:12 PM »
That's interesting - didn't know about that.  :)


Picture included here for information purposes.  Was quickly superseded by imported TOW system though.

According to Wikipedia, Romania and Euromissile came up with a version of Malyutka that incorporates a warhead from MILAN missile.  Can anyone offer an opinion on how it compares with other modern Malyutka developments?

 
Top attack involves mounting a shaped-charge warhead facing downwards in a (usually) tube-shaped missile which is not a very efficient "fit". In a modern, relatively fat missile airframe, you can get a top-attack warhead that's still a decent size, but I'm not sure about in a Malyutka, which is really, really small.....


Also according to Wikipedia FGM-148 has a body diametre only 2mm wider than that of Malyutka (125mm) but packs a warhead more than twice as heavy as that of Malyutka...... of course I do not know if Malyutka's warhead can have the same diametre as its body, and I reckon that a warhead too much heavier than initially specified is bound to bring forth other problems......

All that for the off-chance of running into a Type 99 or Kyū-maru......  ;D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 02:13:16 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?