Author Topic: Avro CF-105 Arrow  (Read 13622 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2013, 01:24:43 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

No problem.

I thought the modern-day "Super-Arrow" was a bit OTT as well. I think it's reasonable to imagine it having a similar career to the Phantom, i.e. major new versions towards the end on the 1960s, upgrades to existing aircraft in the 1980/90s then a diminishing "legacy asset" beyond theend of the century with upgrades aimed at life extension rather than capbility.


Quote
As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Well again, I was projecting a similar experience to the Phantom, i.e. it goes to 'nam (not necessarily in Canadian hands), gets presented with a completely different scenario to that for which it was designed, and has to be modified accordingly.

Quote
Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.

Didn't know about the GSh-6-23 problems - cheers.  :)

Limited relevence to the Arrow though, since that's one gun it definitely wouldn't be fitted with. I only mentioned the MiG-31 because the  position of it's gun (i.e. a long way back on the fuselage) was relevent to the issue of mounting a gun a long way back on the Arrow. The latter would probably have a Vulcan.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2013, 02:45:48 AM »
Nice work there.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2013, 03:22:00 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline mrvr6

  • Accidentally created a Tejas….
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2013, 07:44:08 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

agreed BUT theres nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy after all thats what ahat if is all about :)

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

Ditto.  As usual, the myth making tries to make up with fantasy what reality denies.  The CF-105 was a remarkable aircraft but like the TSR2 it is one of the great "should have beens".  It was not though, ever intended to be anything other than an interceptor.  Unfortunately too few "fan boyz" (tm, JF) seem to understand that try and turn it into something else.   In reality, when the Soviet manned bomber threat disappeared, it's usefulness was basically over.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?

The F-111 was a great aircraft that was, that in hind sight probably was not ideal for a small to medium air force like the RAAF and had an opportunity cost that hurt across defence for decades.  The clowns wanting life extend it into the 2030s were beyond delusional.

Offline Silver Fox

  • Talk to me Goose!
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 03:23:27 AM »
The Arrow hype is largely fed by those that don't have a single functional clue about air forces or the aircraft they use.

Roadmap for Arrow, post "real-world" cancellation.

1. RL 206 flies with PS-13 engines. The MKII becomes the "standard" Arrow design.

2. The MKIII Arrow is a MKII with photo-recon gear instead of the weapons system.

3. Similar consideration is given to electronic reconnaissance, producing the MKIV.

4. AVRO engineers seek to solve the issue of Surface to Air Missile vulnerability that the MKIII/IV Arrow has in over-flying hostile territory. They invent the modern tactical chaff/flare dispenser in response.

5. Investigations into the strike capability of the CF-105 produce the MKV. The MKV is essentially a MKII with the weapons pack deleted and replaced with reinforced structure. Air-to-air radar is replaced with ground search/targeting. Initially the payload is only 4,500 lbs... but rapidly increases to 12,000 lbs.

6. Upgrades to the MKIII produce a viable electronic warfare capability. The MKIIIb can jam hostile radars, the MKIIIc can carry and launch anti-radiation missiles.

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Offline Daryl J.

  • Assures us he rarely uses model glue in dentistry
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 04:47:58 AM »
Option 2.   I like option 2
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 05:01:15 AM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 05:02:54 AM »

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."


What?!  No Refuelling by other Arrows?  Damn waste of a platform if you ask me... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 09:08:36 AM »

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Dunno why they'd be 'livid' and it would depend on timeline, as M-D didn't come into being
until 1967, and I doubt if the Douglas side of the house would have cared anyhow.   ;)

No love lost between Long Beach and St. Louis.  ;D
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And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 04:52:08 AM »
Folks:

I am very privileged to come across some very rare Avro Arrow Memorabilia.

The two pictures below are scans are what I consider authentic photos borrowed from an ex-Avro employee who was employed as an Executive Assistant.

She worked first as an EA first for a RCAF Air Commodore (I am guessing the rank. Waiting for details. Her memory is not that good anymore) and later in the Avro Sales organization. It was in the sales department where she came to acquire these photos. The story as told to me by her son is that when visitors would come to the factory, they would layout a large number of photos as gifts and the pilots would go and pre-sign all of them. There sometimes would be leftovers which would be destroyed. She had the good frame of mind to take these as well as other now precious memorabilia.

The signatures are from Janusz Żurakowski and Wladyslaw Potocki ("Spud").  Note he signed it as "Spud".





Enjoy.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 07:56:52 AM by The Big Gimper »
Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

User and abuser of Bothans...

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 06:58:49 AM »
Awesome pics! Keep those in a special place high and dry.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »
SO, good Anglo-French names, then. ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline M.A.D

  • Also likes a bit of arse...
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2015, 02:51:57 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)




You know, for all the fanciful notion of this twelve AMRAAM totting F-111 'Bomber Interceptor' concept', I just finished watching a conceptual Boeing B-1R promotional video, which literally supports this notion!

M.A.D