Author Topic: Avro CF-105 Arrow  (Read 12540 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 04:01:31 AM »
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 04:16:40 AM »
Pretty...

Cheers,

Logan

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 04:48:30 AM »
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.

you got a wip thread for that beast?

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 04:55:34 AM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 05:12:00 AM »
you got a wip thread for that beast?

I've got one on another forum I think, I thought I had one here though but it doesn't look like it as I can't find it  -----  In the Arrowhead book it broaches on later versions of the Arrow, Mach 3 and others.  It suggests a bigger version of the Iroquois but there's not a lot of room in the first two versions to increase the engine diameter so I looked for something I could use to accomodate some bigger engines.  I had in the stash one of those really terrible Zhendefu Mig-31's which also has a boxy fuselage so after some part match-ups, used the fuselage.  I've increased the fin area too, I calculated the area of the two Mig-31 fins and then increased that Arrow fin to be the same.  I didn't have to add much.  I decided to give the outer wing leading edges the Avro treatment, these are very thin and curve downwards (which doesn't really show up in the photos).  The tank in the bottom pic will be the master for some castings, needs a bit of cleaning up but I used a Mig-31 pylon for a base.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:18:53 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 05:22:41 AM »
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones

Online Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 05:45:52 AM »
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones
No way to adapt a dual wheel arrangement such as that used on the Jaguar?  It always looked like a much sturdier design and hopefully offered good performance on unprepared surfaces. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 05:48:30 AM »
I thought about it Jeff, but wanted to keep the tandem style arrangement. Besides, too late now  - I've got it all figure out   ;)

It doesn't look too bad with the new u/c and I thought I had a photo of it temporarily on it's u/c but it's gone missing.  Unless I put it in another directory   :-X
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:52:54 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 08:31:26 AM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

A shrunk F-108?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 08:12:57 PM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.


Pardon my hasty and inaccurate use of language.....

I know how the Arrow's "weapon pack" worked and had this in mind with my scheme. I'm not suggesting for a moment it should be "multi-purpose", rather I'd have it replaced by a permanently fitted fuel tank. If it was possible to use 1/4 to 1/3 of the volume for a gun or guns and ammo, then that would be good, but if it was too complicated I'd say go with all-fuel and fit the gun in an external conformal pod.

I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2013, 12:06:03 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

There was an external fuel tank mount for a single 500 gal tank aft of the weapons pack on the Mark. 2.

As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.
The bigger 30mm gun was even more problematic:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/GSh-6-30.htm
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
  • I'd rather be dirtbike riding
Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2013, 12:08:32 AM »
I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.

In Reply #7, I posted some 'Whiff' schemes, the prints show where a centerline tank or other weapons were to be carried.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2013, 12:16:00 AM »
My first Arrow built I enhanced the early Hobbycraft kit a bit.  Tried to correct the main gear a bit to how it really was and I made the weapons bay somewhat like the details found in the Arrowhead book.
Top pic shows the 'gaping hole' Jon referes to, next two are of the weapons pack.

BTW, I had about 40 vacuform kits of the CF-105.  I've manage to sell quite a few of them but now I have run out of one of the sheets that I need to move the rest.  I will have to get some formed up but I want to make some masters of the moulds before I do that.  Something that will last a while.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:18:27 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2013, 01:02:35 AM »
Cool Robert.  :)

I like that you have the correct number of Sparrow II.  ;)
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

  • Measures the actual aircraft before modelling it...we have the photographic evidence.
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2013, 01:09:34 AM »
There just wasn't any room for any more Jon, and even then the fin tips had to poke through the doors (just like the real thing)