Author Topic: Avro CF-105 Arrow  (Read 14585 times)

Offline Daryl J.

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Avro CF-105 Arrow
« on: November 26, 2012, 06:57:32 AM »
Royal Norwegian stand off nuke ALBM (W-28, Green Bamboo, etc.)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 07:55:32 AM by Daryl J. »
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 07:03:21 AM »
Damn Vikings... ;D
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 07:24:13 AM »
Maybe the semi recessed missile will have to be named the Opprort Troll then!    (Uproaring Troll)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 07:35:57 AM »
Over the years I've collected art of various proposed Arrow versions.  I'm not sure they are small enough to post here, but I've got the Mk.3, the PS-2, one Mk.4 proposal with a cleaned-up version of the PS-2's ramjets and tankage, and one of a PS-2 firing a PS-13 ABM.  Be glad to send them to someone to adjust to fit.  That Mk.4 could easily have just tanks instead of the full package under the wings.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 08:10:10 AM »
Over the years I've collected art of various proposed Arrow versions.  I'm not sure they are small enough to post here, but I've got the Mk.3, the PS-2, one Mk.4 proposal with a cleaned-up version of the PS-2's ramjets and tankage, and one of a PS-2 firing a PS-13 ABM.  Be glad to send them to someone to adjust to fit.  That Mk.4 could easily have just tanks instead of the full package under the wings.

How about Photobucket or your favourite photo sharing site. I'd love to see them Evan.
Work in progress ::

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 08:25:07 AM »
Really don't have a photobucket account or a sharing site at the moment.  Something more to attend to.

Let em see if I can't get them off to you in the next few days.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »
I bought these ones through CanMilAir's website

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 07:53:41 AM »
RAF anti-satellite
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2013, 08:55:21 AM »
Karl Mesojednik has on his Avro Arrow Dedication Page about 20 nice profiles from the MK.I to the MK.IX.

Page is here.
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2013, 01:59:33 PM »
Brilliant stuff there, thanks for the link.  :)
Regards
Kit

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Offline Diavel

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 04:40:01 AM »
How about a 3 engined slightly modified version built to intercept UFO's??


Just call me the thread killer.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 10:21:18 AM »
It may be silly, but it sure is pretty.

YouTube: 5th Gen SUPERSONIC CF105 MK3


Cheers,

Logan

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 04:56:11 PM »
Why put the Pythons in the weapons bay?  Their seekers can't "see" behind those metal doors...

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2013, 10:23:32 PM »
Why put the Pythons in the weapons bay?  Their seekers can't "see" behind those metal doors...

Strange choice given that there are wing pylons, but not really a problem for the Pythons with their lock-on after launch capability. And maybe they've somehow tied in the Python's seeker with the IRST? And there's still the F-22's current low-tech solution - open the bay doors, extend trapeze and missile into the slipstream, let the seeker do its thing and then fire - or not.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 02:04:46 AM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

 
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 04:01:31 AM »
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 04:16:40 AM »
Pretty...

Cheers,

Logan

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 04:48:30 AM »
On my Super Arrow, I'm going with four F-15 wing tanks each with a pair of AIM-54 style missiles on the inboard pylon and Sparrows on the outer ones, then  another four AIM-54's on the fuselage corners just like your idea Harold.  I'm also moving the u/c into the fuselage.

you got a wip thread for that beast?

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 04:55:34 AM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 05:12:00 AM »
you got a wip thread for that beast?

I've got one on another forum I think, I thought I had one here though but it doesn't look like it as I can't find it  -----  In the Arrowhead book it broaches on later versions of the Arrow, Mach 3 and others.  It suggests a bigger version of the Iroquois but there's not a lot of room in the first two versions to increase the engine diameter so I looked for something I could use to accomodate some bigger engines.  I had in the stash one of those really terrible Zhendefu Mig-31's which also has a boxy fuselage so after some part match-ups, used the fuselage.  I've increased the fin area too, I calculated the area of the two Mig-31 fins and then increased that Arrow fin to be the same.  I didn't have to add much.  I decided to give the outer wing leading edges the Avro treatment, these are very thin and curve downwards (which doesn't really show up in the photos).  The tank in the bottom pic will be the master for some castings, needs a bit of cleaning up but I used a Mig-31 pylon for a base.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:18:53 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 05:22:41 AM »
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 05:45:52 AM »
I decided that the original main u/c gear wasn't really up to un-prepared airstrips (I'm thinking forward gravel strips in the Arctic) which is why I moved the gear to the fuselage, just not any room in the wings for more robust u/c gear or wheels.  I've worked out how they would work and how they would retract. Wheels are F-105 ones
No way to adapt a dual wheel arrangement such as that used on the Jaguar?  It always looked like a much sturdier design and hopefully offered good performance on unprepared surfaces. 
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 05:48:30 AM »
I thought about it Jeff, but wanted to keep the tandem style arrangement. Besides, too late now  - I've got it all figure out   ;)

It doesn't look too bad with the new u/c and I thought I had a photo of it temporarily on it's u/c but it's gone missing.  Unless I put it in another directory   :-X
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 05:52:54 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 08:31:26 AM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

A shrunk F-108?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 08:12:57 PM »
I've always like the idea of a late 1960s Arrow modified by Vietnam experience:

Clear canopy
Gun and fuel in the former weapons bay
4 x Sparrow on the fuselage corners, F-15 style
Underwing drop tanks with 4 x Sidewinder on the sides of the pylons, F-15 style again
Twin vertical fins mounted at mid-span

First you'd have to give it a "weapons bay".  :-X

The Arrow was built as a weapons system, and part of that system was a removable weapons 'pack',
which also contained the electronics specific to the particular missile. The pack ran the full width of
the fuselage and partly up the side of the aircraft. When it was removed you just had a gaping hole
in the airframe. The pack was also quite shallow due to the engine intake ducts running directly
above. Turning the weapons pack area into a multi-purpose bay would require a great deal of
structural and systems rearrangement. All of this has been public knowledge for decades so why
these idiots at Boudreau can't even get the details right just underscores that their 'project' is a
con job on the uninformed. Their research seems to be limited to reading Russell Whitcomb's
flag-waving, and inaccurate, books.
As a Canadian I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me,
myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.


Pardon my hasty and inaccurate use of language.....

I know how the Arrow's "weapon pack" worked and had this in mind with my scheme. I'm not suggesting for a moment it should be "multi-purpose", rather I'd have it replaced by a permanently fitted fuel tank. If it was possible to use 1/4 to 1/3 of the volume for a gun or guns and ammo, then that would be good, but if it was too complicated I'd say go with all-fuel and fit the gun in an external conformal pod.

I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

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Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2013, 12:06:03 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

There was an external fuel tank mount for a single 500 gal tank aft of the weapons pack on the Mark. 2.

As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.
The bigger 30mm gun was even more problematic:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/GSh-6-30.htm
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2013, 12:08:32 AM »
I think I'm right in saying that several "official" advanced Arrow schemes had a hardpoint under the rear fuselage behind the weapon pack, so that might be a possible location for a gun pod. Some might look askance at it being so far back, but the MiG-31 carries it's gun a long way back on the fuselage too, without apparent difficulty.

In Reply #7, I posted some 'Whiff' schemes, the prints show where a centerline tank or other weapons were to be carried.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2013, 12:16:00 AM »
My first Arrow built I enhanced the early Hobbycraft kit a bit.  Tried to correct the main gear a bit to how it really was and I made the weapons bay somewhat like the details found in the Arrowhead book.
Top pic shows the 'gaping hole' Jon referes to, next two are of the weapons pack.

BTW, I had about 40 vacuform kits of the CF-105.  I've manage to sell quite a few of them but now I have run out of one of the sheets that I need to move the rest.  I will have to get some formed up but I want to make some masters of the moulds before I do that.  Something that will last a while.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:18:27 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2013, 01:02:35 AM »
Cool Robert.  :)

I like that you have the correct number of Sparrow II.  ;)
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2013, 01:09:34 AM »
There just wasn't any room for any more Jon, and even then the fin tips had to poke through the doors (just like the real thing)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2013, 01:24:43 AM »
Sorry Harold, my frustration isn't with you, it's with the idiots pushing the Arrow
as being a viable aircraft for today.

No problem.

I thought the modern-day "Super-Arrow" was a bit OTT as well. I think it's reasonable to imagine it having a similar career to the Phantom, i.e. major new versions towards the end on the 1960s, upgrades to existing aircraft in the 1980/90s then a diminishing "legacy asset" beyond theend of the century with upgrades aimed at life extension rather than capbility.


Quote
As to carrying a gun on the Arrow? Um, why bother?

Well again, I was projecting a similar experience to the Phantom, i.e. it goes to 'nam (not necessarily in Canadian hands), gets presented with a completely different scenario to that for which it was designed, and has to be modified accordingly.

Quote
Anyhow the MiG 31 gun is just dead weight as the Russians stopped using the GSh-6-23 gun
and carrying live ammo in the '80s because the gun turned out to have some dangerous flaws,
including the loss of two Su-24 in 1983.

Didn't know about the GSh-6-23 problems - cheers.  :)

Limited relevence to the Arrow though, since that's one gun it definitely wouldn't be fitted with. I only mentioned the MiG-31 because the  position of it's gun (i.e. a long way back on the fuselage) was relevent to the issue of mounting a gun a long way back on the Arrow. The latter would probably have a Vulcan.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2013, 02:45:48 AM »
Nice work there.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2013, 03:22:00 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2013, 07:44:08 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

agreed BUT theres nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy after all thats what ahat if is all about :)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2013, 11:10:05 AM »
...these idiots at Boudreau ... underscores that their 'project' is a con job on the uninformed…

...I get so tired of the endless mythical horseshit surrounding the Arrow. To me, myth-making denigrates real accomplishments.

Agree fully!

Ditto.  As usual, the myth making tries to make up with fantasy what reality denies.  The CF-105 was a remarkable aircraft but like the TSR2 it is one of the great "should have beens".  It was not though, ever intended to be anything other than an interceptor.  Unfortunately too few "fan boyz" (tm, JF) seem to understand that try and turn it into something else.   In reality, when the Soviet manned bomber threat disappeared, it's usefulness was basically over.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2013, 05:06:23 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?

The F-111 was a great aircraft that was, that in hind sight probably was not ideal for a small to medium air force like the RAAF and had an opportunity cost that hurt across defence for decades.  The clowns wanting life extend it into the 2030s were beyond delusional.

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 03:23:27 AM »
The Arrow hype is largely fed by those that don't have a single functional clue about air forces or the aircraft they use.

Roadmap for Arrow, post "real-world" cancellation.

1. RL 206 flies with PS-13 engines. The MKII becomes the "standard" Arrow design.

2. The MKIII Arrow is a MKII with photo-recon gear instead of the weapons system.

3. Similar consideration is given to electronic reconnaissance, producing the MKIV.

4. AVRO engineers seek to solve the issue of Surface to Air Missile vulnerability that the MKIII/IV Arrow has in over-flying hostile territory. They invent the modern tactical chaff/flare dispenser in response.

5. Investigations into the strike capability of the CF-105 produce the MKV. The MKV is essentially a MKII with the weapons pack deleted and replaced with reinforced structure. Air-to-air radar is replaced with ground search/targeting. Initially the payload is only 4,500 lbs... but rapidly increases to 12,000 lbs.

6. Upgrades to the MKIII produce a viable electronic warfare capability. The MKIIIb can jam hostile radars, the MKIIIc can carry and launch anti-radiation missiles.

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 04:47:58 AM »
Option 2.   I like option 2
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2013, 05:01:15 AM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2013, 05:02:54 AM »

AVRO announces that: "An Arrow can now photograph targets while escorted by other Arrows. More Arrows bomb the target while other Arrows jam radars and still more Arrows escort. Finally, an Arrow photographs the bomb damage while escorted by yet more Arrows."


What?!  No Refuelling by other Arrows?  Damn waste of a platform if you ask me... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline jcf

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2013, 09:08:36 AM »

M-D is apparently livid... they were just about ready to make the same claim for their F-4 Phantom series.

Dunno why they'd be 'livid' and it would depend on timeline, as M-D didn't come into being
until 1967, and I doubt if the Douglas side of the house would have cared anyhow.   ;)

No love lost between Long Beach and St. Louis.  ;D
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 04:52:08 AM »
Folks:

I am very privileged to come across some very rare Avro Arrow Memorabilia.

The two pictures below are scans are what I consider authentic photos borrowed from an ex-Avro employee who was employed as an Executive Assistant.

She worked first as an EA first for a RCAF Air Commodore (I am guessing the rank. Waiting for details. Her memory is not that good anymore) and later in the Avro Sales organization. It was in the sales department where she came to acquire these photos. The story as told to me by her son is that when visitors would come to the factory, they would layout a large number of photos as gifts and the pilots would go and pre-sign all of them. There sometimes would be leftovers which would be destroyed. She had the good frame of mind to take these as well as other now precious memorabilia.

The signatures are from Janusz Żurakowski and Wladyslaw Potocki ("Spud").  Note he signed it as "Spud".





Enjoy.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 07:56:52 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline kerick

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 06:58:49 AM »
Awesome pics! Keep those in a special place high and dry.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »
SO, good Anglo-French names, then. ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2015, 02:51:57 PM »
Dare I mention the super duper, jedi master, F-111 modernizations pushed by some in Australia?



What?!  You no think this realistic?! ;)




You know, for all the fanciful notion of this twelve AMRAAM totting F-111 'Bomber Interceptor' concept', I just finished watching a conceptual Boeing B-1R promotional video, which literally supports this notion!

M.A.D

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2015, 03:51:03 AM »
The fanciful things with CK's idea was that there was (and indeed still is) no need for it - there were/are no hordes of enemy coming over the horizon.  Moreover, CK, used to try to say that all these mods (new engines, new radar, new avionics, reworked airframe, certification of everything could all be done for peanuts!  What a joke!
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2015, 01:17:01 PM »
It basically feeds on the belief the Arrow was and still is the *best* fighter ever built. It could fly faster than an SR-71, carry more weapons than a Phantom, and fly rings around an F-15!
It was so good it HAD to be cancelled or nobody else would have been able to sell a plane ever afterwards!

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 04:13:13 PM »
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2015, 12:56:47 AM »
Sorry, is this the "Sparring Room" or "Ideas & Inspirations > Aerospace"? ???

The latter, however there's nothing that sez every notion has to be greeted with oohs and aahs of adulation.

If something is idiotic, it's idiotic and many folk of the Canadian persusasion, myself amongst them, get tired
of OOT Arrow fantasies and continuations of baseless myth.

 :icon_fsm:
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And we, till now unmatched in ill,
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2015, 01:51:35 AM »
The Arrow had the potential to be an excellent interceptor (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too) and, quite possibly, a good strike aircraft (there was such a derivative proposed to Britain's GOR.339).  I could see it, too, as an excellent recce platform (intend to model one that way using a RF-111 recce pallet).  That would be quite enough if it had been developed.  From all I've been able to gather, the Iroquois was in advance of both the J75 and the Olympus 320R (for the TSR.2) and it's established fact that an Iroquois engine did wind up in the UK.  Was it all-doing, no; was it an excellent aircraft that deserved better, yes IMHO.  Certainly it gives plenty of room for whif fodder.  I can't, though, see it as a tactical fighter along the lines of the F-15 or F-14.

Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2015, 08:13:54 AM »
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2015, 09:09:38 AM »
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?

Nope, the pack was really pretty shallow.
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 03:49:04 AM »
Some profiles by one of our members to wet your appetites:





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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2015, 04:34:05 AM »
I've always thought it was a pretty aircraft, but gone is gone. Thank goodness for injection molding technology.

To come back to whiffery, is the structure of the Arrow such that the weapons pack/bay could be configured to launch rockets
after the fashion of VLS cells? Something along the lines of a large diameter stumpy missile for, say, shooting at the stray flying Saucer or Soviet satellite?


Nope, the pack was really pretty shallow.


One can see it here:

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2015, 04:51:21 AM »
One especially for Bill...though he may not see the aircraft in the picture:

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2015, 06:50:02 AM »
Those were the days....................
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline dy031101

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2015, 03:11:48 AM »
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2015, 08:50:16 AM »
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??

Apart from the technical difficulties of designing a long-range, high accelleration, missile which was guided by a long-range radar system?  Cost.   The US spent approximately several tens of billion dollars on it's Safeguard System to turn it off after a couple of months.  It took over 20 years to develop as well.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2016, 12:50:52 AM »
Avro Canada CF-XX Super Arrow concept





Source: Facebook The Greatest Planes That Never Were
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2016, 11:41:53 AM »
^ Obviously based off the one Clint Eastwood stole from Russia!

Offline mrvr6

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2016, 03:36:09 PM »
now thats LOVELY!
i saw a comment on youtube where somebody claimed the arrow would still be the best fighter around today,
i asked him what it would be the best at? and gave him a list of speed alt range maneuverability etc etc, so far he hasnt replied lol

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2016, 10:06:58 AM »


Those were the days....................

That photo is likely from the rollout of the Canadian Air and Space Museum's replica in October 2008...note the modern car visible under its belly!  ;)

I have an old-tool Hobbycraft 1/72 Arrow in the stash but I've no idea what to do with it, but this thread is a great font of knowledge!
"He's more real-world now than whif..."

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2016, 05:27:41 AM »








Source: Artist Peter Robichaud
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Offline Artoor_K

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2017, 06:15:58 AM »
I've bought a model of Arrow in 1/48. Also, I've got 1/48 Airfix TSR2. I'm going to make a dio with them. Camo for TSR2 is chosen-green/gray top, light grey bottom. The problem is- how to paint Arrow? Production plane wouldn't be white with orange accents? Or would it?
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2017, 06:41:42 AM »
That is a very good question Artur.

I don't think it would be white. It also depends oh which "Mark" you will build it as.  Which Air Force?

If it is an early RCAF model (early 1960s to 1970s) it could be bare metal or Silver Lacquer). It could be also be Air Defence Grey like the 2nd batch of CF-101s in the late 1970's and 80s. Of if it is later, use the CF-18 colours.

I have 10's of profiles and they come in many different schemes. If you want copies of all my profiles, send me a PM with your personal email address and I'll give them to you.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 06:57:17 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2017, 07:28:04 AM »
I've bought a model of Arrow in 1/48. Also, I've got 1/48 Airfix TSR2. I'm going to make a dio with them. Camo for TSR2 is chosen-green/gray top, light grey bottom. The problem is- how to paint Arrow? Production plane wouldn't be white with orange accents? Or would it?

Like this maybe

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2017, 10:01:39 AM »
Very nice Robert. Whose markings will it receive?
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Offline Artoor_K

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2017, 07:41:11 PM »
That is a very good question Artur.

I don't think it would be white. It also depends oh which "Mark" you will build it as.  Which Air Force?

If it is an early RCAF model (early 1960s to 1970s) it could be bare metal or Silver Lacquer). It could be also be Air Defence Grey like the 2nd batch of CF-101s in the late 1970's and 80s. Of if it is later, use the CF-18 colours.

I have 10's of profiles and they come in many different schemes. If you want copies of all my profiles, send me a PM with your personal email address and I'll give them to you.

I'll stick with RCAF😊 Which mark? Well, I plan to show it with TSR like on static display on airshow. It could be 1980 more or less. Thanks a lot for your help. Pm will be sent in a few minutes😃
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2017, 08:42:40 PM »
Very nice Robert. Whose markings will it receive?

I used some different exhaust nozzles to make it into a Mk.2, so it'll be something in that serial range with appropriate sqn markings

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2017, 01:45:46 AM »
I'll stick with RCAF😊 Which mark? Well, I plan to show it with TSR like on static display on airshow. It could be 1980 more or less.


Based on this info, you would probably look at CF-101 style schemes for the Arrow (given the CF-105 would have served in its place) and either CF-104 or CF-116 style schemes for the TSR.



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Offline jcf

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Alvis 3.1's "How to update the Arrow to be equivalent to F-35"
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2017, 12:06:15 AM »
Now with animation.  ;D




Step 1 - reduce to approximately the same size as the F-35.


Make mods as necessary to introduce reduced RCS, etc.

Yer welcome.  ;D :icon_fsm:
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2017, 12:03:56 AM »
...... (and Avro-Canada had some concepts for ballistic missile interception, too)......

Outside of Mutually-Assureded Destruction already being a deterent, what was the challenge that prevented the concept of ABM-armed manned interceptors from happening, particularly for countries that did not possess any credible strategic nuclear capability of their own??

Apart from the technical difficulties of designing a long-range, high accelleration, missile which was guided by a long-range radar system?  Cost.   The US spent approximately several tens of billion dollars on it's Safeguard System to turn it off after a couple of months.  It took over 20 years to develop as well.
One of the key issues would be weight of the missile. Assume for a minute you could actually create and package the tracking and homing systems into a missile terminal stage that could do the job if it got close enough (and actually creating such a system is where all ABM missiles actually attempted fell down), you then need to get that terminal stage to the ICBM. Which, over Canada, is at the apex of its high, looping, ballistic trajectory from the USSR to the US. Canada is absolutely the worst place to launch an ABM as to achieve the altitude to get to the ICBM, you have to push it uphill the furthest, so the booster would be the biggest.

The Sprint ABM was to be launched to hit the ICBMs in the terminal mode, just before impact with a range of 25 miles. They weighed 7500 lb each.

THAAD is, of course, newer and uses much better technology than would be available to an early-60s ABM Arrow. Each missile has a range of 125 miles and weighs 1980 lb. And is still designed to hit incoming missiles within the upper atmosphere.

ICBMs generally top out at a 1200 mile max altitude.

An effective ABM for mid course intercept would need to be essentially another ICBM in size to get to the altitude.

An Arrow could never hoist an effective air launched ABM even if one existed at the time. And neither could any other aircraft of 1955-65.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2017, 02:49:38 AM »
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2017, 04:23:33 AM »
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

No need to say it twice. It will be done.  At least 4.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 06:03:40 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2017, 05:23:15 AM »
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2017, 10:20:30 PM »
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html


Wow! Did not know about the Big Q!  Does Big Q exist in styrene?  Could not find one via Google? Maybe a 3D print opportunity?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2017, 10:57:51 PM »
Random idea which may already have been covered:  operational CF-105 carrying AIR-2 Genie

Or a later model with the AIM-68:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-68.html


Anymore drawings of that Evan ?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2017, 12:19:45 AM »
Only drawing I know of is at the link I gave.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2017, 04:21:00 AM »
AIM-26 is also an option
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2017, 12:34:57 PM »
Not totally germane to this topic, but that does suggest a F-106 armed with one AIM-68 and four AIM-26 missiles.  Of course, that F-106 could be in Canadian markings.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2017, 10:21:41 PM »
That AIM-68 is quite a big missile in 1/72 scale, about 1 1/2" long (38mm). I was thinking of using a Bullpup as a base but I don't think they're that long.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2017, 01:55:38 PM »
My thoughts would be to use an AIM-47 or AIM-54 as a base.

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2018, 10:55:35 PM »


Right now there is an amazing display in the window of Wheels & Wings Hobbies (Toronto, Canada) on the history of the Avro Arrow in celebration of the 60th anniversary of its first flight on March 25, 1958, a true marvel of the Canadian aviation industry!

Check it out at 1880 Danforth Ave! — at Wheels & Wings Hobbies.
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2018, 06:24:01 AM »
Found on FB. A Japanese build of the 1/72 Hobbycraft Arrow old molds.







Full build report (in Kanji) can be found here: http://mohsoh-hanger-no9.blog.jp/archives/52373227.html
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2018, 01:16:14 AM »
Nice work
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Re: Avro CF-105 Arrow
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2018, 08:59:27 AM »
From Facebook.

From the poster:  Thought you'd like to see a photo of my dad, Chris Pike's log book showing him flying a CF-100 doing an Avro Arrow chase. Dates are January 11 and February 1.

And:  "Arrow Chase" on Jan 11 1959 was as chase to Arrow RL205? aka the only time RL205 flew?

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