Author Topic: AWACS competitors  (Read 7298 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 11:32:22 AM »
Just a thought for an EB-52, a Phalcon phased-array system mounted on those slab sides, a pressurized capsule in the weapons bay as on the ERB-47, and a couple crew stations in the cockpit converted to command and control positions.  Add in a satellite link to network command and control and you'd have a formidable aircraft.  Personally, though, I think you really need to add modern engines but that's another arguement.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 11:41:33 AM »
Or stretch the fwd crew compartment for a couple extra rows of seating (at least one, moving the Offense/Nav team upstairs gives you the whole lower deck as a control compartment), and use the bomb bay for fuel, electronics and defensive weaponry. A prof and I once hatched a dedicated fighter-killer BUFF that would've had "Combat AWACS" capability...

Offline elmayerle

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 11:56:03 AM »
*laughs* On the B-2, some of us wiled away some time looking at what variants the modular construction method would allow.  While the most obvious are RB-2 and KB-2 variants, we did look at others.  But, given what Tacit Blue was originally intended for (the radar portion of Pave Mover), we did discuss some EB-2 variants, though you'd likely need the satellite relay back to a control center to properly use the data.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 11:16:38 PM »
Just a thought for an EB-52, a Phalcon phased-array system mounted on those slab sides, a pressurized capsule in the weapons bay as on the ERB-47, and a couple crew stations in the cockpit converted to command and control positions.  Add in a satellite link to network command and control and you'd have a formidable aircraft.  Personally, though, I think you really need to add modern engines but that's another arguement.

I'm not up on radar systems Evan, is that Phalcon system in addition to the dish system ? or are they two different systems ?  I'm thinking four CF6's for engines (Aircraft in Miniature now sell these separately, with pylons)

I've had this plan on making a version of every B-52 (in 1/72 scale), and for the RB-52 I started to make a recon' pressurized capsule.  I found that a HO/OO train fuel tanker car body is just about the right size for the capsule, suitable modified with camera ports etc ---

Offline Diamondback

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 11:25:14 PM »
Kitnut, my understanding is that the Phalcon system is flat-panel antennas for air-search, and just like any other aircraft with it existing weather/nav/etc nose radar would be retained.

Re engines, CF6 or JT9D are both plausible, BUFF testbeds have flown with them replacing J57's on the #3 pylon... for Go Big or Go Home, my prof (who used to command a fighter squadron) and I went with an uprated GE90 at 125k# thrust since we were rewinging anyway. (Personal bias: "enough power" is when you can accelerate straight up even loaded.LOL)

Offline kitnut617

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 11:30:26 PM »
Kitnut, my understanding is that the Phalcon system is flat-panel antennas for air-search, and just like any other aircraft with it existing weather/nav/etc nose radar would be retained.

DB, I didn't phrase that very well, would the Phalcon system be in addition to the E-3 dish system, as I understand it the E-3 is an AWAC system and not a dedicated air-search system.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2012, 12:51:08 AM »
In this day of electronic miniaturization, can that huge disc be reduced in size or eliminated altogether?

[edit].  Answer pleasantly found below, thanks!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:08:48 AM by Daryl J. »
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline elmayerle

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2012, 02:40:28 AM »
Kitnut, my understanding is that the Phalcon system is flat-panel antennas for air-search, and just like any other aircraft with it existing weather/nav/etc nose radar would be retained.

DB, I didn't phrase that very well, would the Phalcon system be in addition to the E-3 dish system, as I understand it the E-3 is an AWAC system and not a dedicated air-search system.
Phalcon is instead of the dish.  the rotating dish is replaced by large AESA transmitter-receiver flat-panel antenna arrays giving considerably more capability.  In theory, you could combine AWACS and JSTARS into one antenna fit that way and a few more algorithms could give an air-search mode, too.  *grin* Replace the nose radar with a full-up fighter radar and be able to add guidance to missiles launched from your platform or other platforms.  Part of my thought for a P-3AEW mod'd for interceptor missile operations would be an AN/APG-71 or, a bit farther back in time, AWG-9, and carrying Phoenix missiles as well as being able to take hand-offs on ground-launched Nike-Phoenix missiles or Sea-Phoenix missiles.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2012, 01:24:08 PM »
One thought for mods to late-model B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s; all there are set up to use the CSRL (Common Strategic Rotary Launcher) (B-1 and B-2 can each carry one in each weapons bay, making for 3 and 2 respectively, and I'm not certain how many a B-52 can carry).  These can be loaded with a wide variety of stores for different missions.  In addition, all three can be configured to carry "conventional" bombs with different guidance packages.  This could make for interesting options in conjunction with an AEW&C option (fill the potential third seat in the B-2 with a battle coordinator working with the sat-linked control center as well as what ever armament options the B-2 has (I've one variant of the B-2 in mind where the RH weapons bay has the aux. tank fitted and the LH one has a radar pallet with a large LO AESA radar installed in a suitable fairing (shaped much like an enlarged TSSAM with the front contours mirrored to the back).  With a bit of care, you could even add some long-range electro-optical systems behind a LO window or windows.

Offline Diamondback

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2012, 02:07:51 PM »
Stock B-52 is one CSRL, the "stretch" my ex-fighter-jock prof and I pitched would take two. CSRL is only used on 2000-lb-size bombs (Mk 84, JSOW, JDAM) and ALCM, 500-pounders are loaded into conventional racks (sadly, the space-wasting low-density ones they were built with, the high-density clips made for Project Big Belly are all scrapmetal as far as I can find).

Hardcore BUFF-geek who's actually had 15 minutes of pilot-seat time in a parked -D, over here. :) (55-094, Kansas Aviation Museum in Wichita at the 50th Birthday party. Got the photo, too...)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:11:29 PM by Diamondback »

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2012, 04:22:49 PM »
Got the photo, too...)

No photo, no proof... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Diamondback

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2012, 04:30:36 PM »
Not my fault if my ugly mug from when I ditched classes for a week causes anyone nightmares... Photo courtesy of a fellow B-52 Association member.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2012, 11:56:32 PM »
Stock B-52 is one CSRL, the "stretch" my ex-fighter-jock prof and I pitched would take two. CSRL is only used on 2000-lb-size bombs (Mk 84, JSOW, JDAM) and ALCM, 500-pounders are loaded into conventional racks (sadly, the space-wasting low-density ones they were built with, the high-density clips made for Project Big Belly are all scrapmetal as far as I can find).
Odd thought, can a CSRL take MERs?

Offline Diamondback

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2012, 12:23:55 AM »
Far as I know it's never been tried--I was wondering something similar re BRU-61 strongbacks for SDB, and every time I remember my walkaround inside -094's bomb bay I end up right back at the same conclusion, that the BUFF's bay is better suited to clip racks than rotaries. Do remember, though, the BUFF was designed at a time when it was meant to carry a single Tallboy-size thermonuclear device or eight smaller Mk 28 nukes in four-shot clips, and conventional munitions were an afterthought at best.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: AWACS competitors
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2012, 01:10:38 AM »
Stock B-52 is one CSRL, the "stretch" my ex-fighter-jock prof and I pitched would take two. CSRL is only used on 2000-lb-size bombs (Mk 84, JSOW, JDAM) and ALCM, 500-pounders are loaded into conventional racks (sadly, the space-wasting low-density ones they were built with, the high-density clips made for Project Big Belly are all scrapmetal as far as I can find).
Odd thought, can a CSRL take MERs?

What about CSRL in circular pods hanging off the B-52 pylons, would there be any advantage ?