Author Topic: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 28336 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« on: December 28, 2011, 03:40:09 AM »
Hi folks,

A thread for your Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration:

 Here's a "Jagd Centurion" to start:



Regards,

Greg
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 03:59:37 AM »
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?

Regards,

Greg
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 04:09:23 AM »
We've all heard about IFV designs that involved reversing the front and rear of a Centurion tank.

Do people remember that a prototype of Merkava was built out of the same idea?

Of course my favourite what-if is still the possibility of a TTD-derived Olifant turret with a 120mm gun and Leopard-2A5-derived addon armour package, placed on a Sho't-standard hull (and then clad in Canadian Forces camo  :D).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 04:18:19 AM by dy031101 »
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 07:09:17 AM »
The King Abdullah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB) has done some interesting Centurion variants too:

Falcon turret:





MAP:

« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 08:13:03 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2011, 07:11:18 AM »
I did profiles of the Cent back in the day, including SPAAG & SPG variants.

Regards,

John
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2011, 07:43:24 AM »
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?

Most people don't realize it, but the US actually bought most of the Centurions in use by NATO.  If you read Simon Dunstan's books on the Centurion, you get the impression that had US money not been behind the purchases, the Centurion would never have become the legend that it is.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2011, 10:45:46 AM »
Oh, those crazy Israelis... :D

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 09:48:02 AM »
The Centurion Tank had a good reputation.  What if the US Army acquired some, even for evaluation?


Most people don't realize it, but the US actually bought most of the Centurions in use by NATO.  If you read Simon Dunstan's books on the Centurion, you get the impression that had US money not been behind the purchases, the Centurion would never have become the legend that it is.

Cheers,

Logan


True - I would still like to see a centurion in a scheme similar to this though:


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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 11:16:12 AM »




Done!  Next request.  Seriously, though, they basically wore a US scheme in Korea.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 12:01:25 PM »
 :slow: :yarr:

Um, let me think... :on-fire:

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 09:30:46 PM »
Whilst the US stars were added to Commonwealth vehicles in Korea for ID purposes, I'd suggest the scheme would be the standard British Army Bronze Green rather than one of the US Army's Olive Drab/Greens.  In addition, the vehicles had British registrations and the like which were different to the US vehicles.

On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2011, 12:05:36 AM »
Perhaps a trade-off with a license produced Centurion armed with the 90mm gun from the M26 Pershing?  That would certainly be an interesting subject. 
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2011, 12:54:12 AM »
On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.

Wha??  Sorry, John, maybe you're just a bit absent-minded today, but I'd very much disagree with this.  Remember almost all US aircraft in the MTO in 1942-43 having the British fin flash?  Heck, all the USAAF aircraft in Europe throughout the war had RAF-style aircraft codes, adopted purely for Commonwealth identification purposes.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2011, 02:02:57 AM »
A quick-and-dirty trial :D
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2011, 02:09:05 AM »

On the subject though, it's always a case of US stars being added to a Commonwealth vehicle or aircraft for ID purposes.  One rarely, if ever, hears of British markings being added to US aircraft for the same purpose.


Apart from the examples Logan has given, one needs to remember the sizes of contributions from the various countries.  Looking at Korea for example we see the following approximate force sizes during the war:

    South Korea 600,000
    United States 302,000
    United Kingdom 14,200
    Canada 6,150
    Turkey 5,460
    Australia 2,280
    Philippines 1,500
    New Zealand 1,390
    Thailand 1,290
    Ethiopian Empire 1,270
    Kingdom of Greece 1,260
    France 1,120
    Colombia 1,070
    Belgium 900
    Netherlands 820
    Union of South Africa 300
    Sweden 170
    Norway 105
    Denmark 100
    Italy 72
    India 70
    Luxembourg 44

With the USA providing by far the biggest foreign contribution, and also the largest hardware, it makes sense from a recognition pov to use the USA markings as a way of ensuring friendly fire is minimised.

I suppose an alternative could have been for the foreign forces to use some sort of "UN" markings, but alas I don't think that happened then...mind you it could be the basis for some sort of whiff.
 :D

Anyway, let's get back to Centurion Tank discussions.

Regards,

Greg

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 02:10:58 AM »
I did profiles of the Cent back in the day, including SPAAG & SPG variants.

Regards,

John

Any chance of you reposting them John?
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 07:42:35 AM »
Ask & ye shall receive:









Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 10:32:49 AM »
Fantastic!  Except now I might need to get a centurion kit...or a few... >:(
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2011, 10:59:03 AM »
Happy to be of service  :D

Regards,

John
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 08:35:19 AM »


This intellectual exercise (including that mental note wearing the "bare" TTD turret) satisfies my desire to do a "Leopard-2-look-alike"......

Unfortunately this one seems to have a shot trap between the glacis and the lower portion of the arrow-head addon module.  :icon_crap:
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »
That bass-ackwards SPG is very credible - India did something similar with their Vickers Mk.1 MBT chassis and Russian 130mm M-46 guns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-46_Catapult

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 10:06:36 PM »
The vehicle in question was an actual proposal, the FV 3805 (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12901.0) as wass the Conway below it and the Malkara launcher below that.

Regards,

John
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 06:30:41 AM »
... my desire to do a "Leopard-2-look-alike"...

Something similar to dy's idea that I'd done as a take on Litvak's AltCan scenario. This version is meant to be an upgraded (EMES-18 Fire Control System) and uparmoured 'ops' version for the Balkans.

The original Super Centurion lacked the slat armour and used the EMES-15 FCS (I'll mount the image if anyone is interested).

Powerplant for both Super Cents was a 650 hp MTU MB 837 Ka-500 multi-fuel diesel driving a Renk HSWL 294-3 4-speed gearbox. This re-engining option was inspired by the Swiss Pz 68 during a technical team visit to Switzerland to assess the Mowag Piranha for the Canadian Army.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 06:36:14 AM »
Another spin on Litvak's AltCan concept was my SPAAG Centurion, the Artemis AAT.

The Artemis used the turret and guns from the French AMX 13/AMX 30 DCA. In Canadian service, the Artemis replaced the Ares AAT (an ex-Achilles CP with CDP tracks and twin 40mm Bofors in a Duster turret).

BTW: I went with the French turret to distinguish mine from Graeme Davidsons's amazing build of a twin Bofors Centurion SPAAG. See the build thread here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 06:38:52 AM by apophenia »
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2012, 08:16:19 AM »
Something similar to dy's idea that I'd done as a take on Litvak's AltCan scenario.

I like Leopard 2A5's beefy turret, but yours is great.  :)
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 09:23:28 AM »
 I suspect Green Mace might have strained the chassis a bit too much, but what about a Bloodhound ( or two, something like the
 mobile SA-4. ) with an accompanying radar vehicle?

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 10:50:24 AM »
I like Leopard 2A5's beefy turret, but yours is great.  :)

Thanks dy'. I do too but my Super Centurion was supposed to predate the 2A5.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2012, 05:08:57 AM »
My favourite Centurion - the original Mark 1 fitted with a 17 pdr main armament and 20 mm Polsten cannon:

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 06:08:02 AM »
I'd not seen that arrangement before --- interesting

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2012, 07:54:19 AM »
It really is a shame the Centurion did not come into service in the later part of 1944. That tank would have been a shock to the 3rd Riech forces. :o
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2012, 03:45:10 PM »
It really is a shame the Centurion did not come into service in the later part of 1944. That tank would have been a shock to the 3rd Riech forces. :o

It almost made it - supposedly, six prototypes arrived in Belgium less than a month after the war in Europe ended in May 1945.  Would certainly make an interesting diorama having a Mk 1 Centurion against something like an E-50.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2012, 03:26:56 PM »
Another spin on Litvak's AltCan concept was my SPAAG Centurion, the Artemis AAT.

The Artemis used the turret and guns from the French AMX 13/AMX 30 DCA. In Canadian service, the Artemis replaced the Ares AAT (an ex-Achilles CP with CDP tracks and twin 40mm Bofors in a Duster turret).

BTW: I went with the French turret to distinguish mine from Graeme Davidsons's amazing build of a twin Bofors Centurion SPAAG. See the build thread here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1292811637/Centurion+Twin+Forty+SPAAG


Wow that's fantastic apophenia!!!
That's what the Australian Army has been lacking since ................. the end of WWII, and has unfortunately elected to continue to lack :(
Although saying this and loving your model, I think it would be too heavy = expensive  :(

Great work!!!!

P.S. I've got mates up at the School of Armour, whom I'm sure is going to love this!!!!

M.A.D

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2012, 12:08:36 PM »
Thanks M.A.D. You're right, the SPAAG Centurion would've been heavy ... but no more so than the AMX-30 with the same turret and radar.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2012, 12:35:40 PM »
Somehow I missed those AltCan profiles - lovely! That Super Cent looks especially tasty.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2012, 05:31:39 AM »
I got sent some "SECRET" drawings from the 50-60's on proposed Canadian Centurions. I'll see if the guy who found them is OK with me posting them here. They aren't very detailed, but to give you an idea, Canada was looking at

- vertical launch ATGM version (probably SS-11)
- 155mm SP Gun (think son of Sexton)
- troop carrier

There were a couple others too. I'm thinking about adding to my Cent what-ifs to include the 155mm version, a tracked Honest John launcher, and something along the lines of the S-125M "Neva", a T-55 with quad SA-3, but obviously using a Centurion and for the missile, some kind of extended range HAWK or something totally made up.


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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 07:08:19 AM »
I got sent some "SECRET" drawings from the 50-60's on proposed Canadian Centurions. I'll see if the guy who found them is OK with me posting them here. They aren't very detailed, but to give you an idea, Canada was looking at

- vertical launch ATGM version (probably SS-11)
- 155mm SP Gun (think son of Sexton)
- troop carrier

There were a couple others too. I'm thinking about adding to my Cent what-ifs to include the 155mm version, a tracked Honest John launcher, and something along the lines of the S-125M "Neva", a T-55 with quad SA-3, but obviously using a Centurion and for the missile, some kind of extended range HAWK or something totally made up.
Hmm, an extended-range Hawk with a booster stage?  How looking at the various naval SAMs of the time and seeing if one of them would work?  I can see Alt. Canada not giving a hoot about other countries' NIH problems and adapting whatever worked well for their needs.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:58:59 AM by elmayerle »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2012, 07:13:49 AM »
Graeme,

How about a VL HOT instead of the VL SS-11?  Less workload for the operator and SACLOS would certainly be more adept at a vertical or near to vertical launch in comparison to the cumbersome SS-11. 
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2012, 07:29:34 AM »
What is "NIH"?
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2012, 07:38:45 AM »
"Not Invented Here" I believe.

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2012, 07:58:08 AM »
Aha, okay... makes sense. Thanks! :)
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2012, 08:48:06 AM »
Secret Canadian Cents! Oh yeah! Here's hoping your source is cool with you posting them on BtS  :)
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2012, 02:13:21 PM »
I'd ove to see some more Cent. project photos, Gingie.

Here's a Teledyne / Sth African / Jordanian project that is still in development - but now on a Challenger chassis ......


Below -- it has all the frontal shot-traps filled ....

Offline apophenia

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2012, 03:05:02 AM »
Wow, amazing what a visual difference that Teledyne low-profile turret makes!
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2012, 01:31:31 AM »
Special thanks to Don Dingwall for sending me these pics he discovered:

Heavy APC:

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:32:37 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2012, 01:32:39 AM »
Centurion III 20 pdr Gun

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:32:58 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2012, 01:34:05 AM »
Centurion Guided Missile Carrier proposal, Nov 1955

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:33:28 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2012, 01:35:18 AM »
Centurion Counter-Mortar Radar Carrier proposal, Nov 1955

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:33:46 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2012, 01:36:25 AM »
Centurion 105mm Howitzer SP, Nov 1955

« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:34:20 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2012, 01:37:48 AM »
Centurion 155mm Howitzer SP, Nov 1955

I just found a used for my M-114 gun...

edit - sorry guys, I reached the image limit on my flickr account and had to delete this set to make room for more.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:36:12 AM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2012, 01:39:47 AM »
And one of my own, a twin 40mm SPAAG Centurion. I actually got around to building this and will post the pics in the Models forum.


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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2012, 03:34:13 PM »
Interesting that they had the 105mm firing rearwards but the 155mm firing forwards.  I'd have expected the reverse.   They also appear open topped whereas the comparable British 25 pdr and 5.5in SP guns on the Centurion both fired rearwards and were fully enclosed.

The ATGW vehicle doesn't appear to be firing SS11s, the missile design is wrong.  It has long span, mid-fuselage wings and a tail, whereas the SS11 had cropped delta fins.   I've seen the missile in the picture before but can't remember where.  I think it's a US early 1950s design IIRC.

Vertical launch with SS11 would have been a real challenge.  CLOS guidance as it stood was quite difficult to use and required the missile to be in the controller's field of view throughout the flight.  There was no "automatic gathering" or anything like what came in later when SS11 was first introduced.   IIRC Vigilant was the first to introduce such ideas into the lexicon.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2012, 02:08:07 AM »
Yep, I wrote SS11 from memory, but once I saw the drawing I knew it was wrong. Also, nowhere does it say Anti-tank Missile, It's more likely a SSM carrier. Missile may be a Dart, timeframe would be about right; before SS-10 was selected. 




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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2012, 11:48:46 AM »
Yeah, Dart looks like a better match.  Of the first generation ATGWs, I still think Vigilant was the best.  Unfortunately only the British Army agreed.  Malkara though, was the most awesome.  Not much could stand up to a 200lb HESH warhead.   :o

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2012, 07:37:18 AM »
OK, 200lbs, i had to google that, because that's 2 x 155mm HE rounds... wiki says 57 lbs. Still, a HUGE warhead!

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2012, 01:11:06 PM »
Thanks for posting those Centurion proposals ... great stuff!

That 200 lbs was for the total weight of Malkara (about twice the weight of the Dart). Andreas Parsch says that the SSM-A-23 Dart had a dual-thrust motor. Was that how the Dart was to pop up out of the Centurion Guided Missile Carrier's hull, I wonder?
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2012, 02:39:16 PM »
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2012, 09:30:37 PM »
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?
Had a 1:35th scale kit of that subject years ago.  Found it in a hobby shop near the main train station in Frankfurt, Germany.  Do not remember the name of the company but the kit was rather primitive from what I remember of it and the Malkara missile was large and in charge. 
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2012, 09:39:18 PM »
I think I am loosing my mind. I thought there was a pic of a Centurion with an M47 turret in this thread.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2012, 02:59:51 PM »
D'oh!  You're right, that's the weight of the missile.  Does anybody know of a 1/35 scale model of the Humber Hornet with Malkaras?
Had a 1:35th scale kit of that subject years ago.  Found it in a hobby shop near the main train station in Frankfurt, Germany.  Do not remember the name of the company but the kit was rather primitive from what I remember of it and the Malkara missile was large and in charge.

There was an ancient Japanese 1/40 scale model of it IIRC seeing when I was a kid.  I also can't remember the name of the company.  Might have been Bandai or something similar, before they got the Gundam bug for giant robots...


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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2012, 09:06:06 AM »
That wind-up 1/40th Hornet was by Midori (sp?). Pretty basic and toylike, as I recall, though.

Accurate Armour's Pig is probably the closest you can get in 1/35th.  But that is 50 quid and you don't even get the Malkara:P
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2013, 12:42:14 AM »
Thinking about a couple Cent kit bash ideas. Take 2 hulls, cut one after the middle bogie, and cut the other before the middle bogie. Glue the two long sections and two short sections together.

For the longer Cent, I'm thinking a tracked Honest John Launcher, or a tracked Nike-Hercules launcher. The shorter cent hull...maybe a recce vehicle, with a Saladin turret? Something late 60's vinatge. Or a JgPz type role?

I'll try and sketch something up.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2013, 08:49:28 AM »
very Q&D mock up

Imagine big SAM or SSM mounted on rear deck


And the shorter hulls mated together...hmm, not really thinking this will work.


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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2013, 03:00:28 PM »
Some cool ideas.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2013, 09:34:12 PM »
The short hull could be the basis of a casemate type tank destroyer.......the Decurion

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2013, 07:48:27 PM »
Imagine big SAM or SSM mounted on rear deck



Looks like something we would see out on the muskeg or tundra.    I see something similar just about everytime I go to Calgary, only it's a bit smaller (a Foremost something-or-other)

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2013, 12:48:04 AM »
Like this?


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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2013, 04:35:26 AM »
Yup!  only they're civvie jobs

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2013, 08:53:42 AM »
Problem with the shortened Centurion is that if you put a Saladin turret on it, then you have a very light armoured turret (approximately 15mm) on a very heavily armoured hull (maximum about 250mm).  Makes it very vulnerable.  What is needed is an equally heavily armoured turret.

The problem with the lengthened hull is that you start running into the width/length ratio problem.  Tracked vehicles need to be on x metres long compared to y metres wide or they become very hard to manoeuvre because of the friction of the track length in contact with the ground.  The British found this out in WWI and WWII, when trying to extend existing chassis beyond the ratio.   I'm unsure of exactly what the ratio is but the Challenger Tank Destroyer in WWII is a perfect example of where they hit it's limits.   The Challenger was quite hard to control around tight corners apparently.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
According to one of my reference books, the track length:width ratio has to be between 1.1:1 and 1.8:1, width being measured between track centrelines and length being the length of track actually on the ground.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2013, 12:13:36 PM »
I rather like the recce version of the shortie Centurion.  Reminiscent of the WWII PzKpfw II Luchs and VK 1602 Leopard.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2013, 01:10:50 PM »
Shorty Centurion has neat look to it.
Is a favorite of mine  :)

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2013, 05:35:21 PM »
According to one of my reference books, the track length:width ratio has to be between 1.1:1 and 1.8:1, width being measured between track centrelines and length being the length of track actually on the ground.

That sounds about right.  ;)

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2013, 10:20:55 PM »
Oh, those are great points ref ratio and turrets - thanks for the input!

I'll have to see about the long cent and what can be done. I think I can make the missile project over the cab and hang over the idler wheel like the Scud on ISU does. Or, i split the hull down the middle and widen it to keep a realistic L:W ratio.

For the shortie version, I may sketch up a 90mm JgPz type casement as suggested above.

Edit: I asked a colleague at the Directorate of Armoured Vehicle Program Management about the design.... sad to say, but he thinks my extended hull Centurion would either need very large corners to navigate, or it'd throw tracks all over the German countryside!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 11:47:27 PM by Gingie »

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2013, 12:57:52 AM »
Looking at your extended hull Centurion I would think that the cab would be better mounted over the engine deck to give you more space and with that you could reduce the length accordingly if you wished to do so.  Instead of the Blue Tank/Nitto/et al M8 HST what about using the HobbyBoss M4 High Speed Tractor? 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 01:03:34 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2013, 02:01:39 AM »
yes of course, mount the cab over the engine.

The M8 cab was there because I thought I was going to win an ebay auction :-) Looks like it might be M4 afterall!

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2013, 02:22:58 AM »
yes of course, mount the cab over the engine.

The M8 cab was there because I thought I was going to win an ebay auction :-) Looks like it might be M4 afterall!

With the M4 HST body you also have a rear set of passenger seats and the machine gun cupola/turret to contend with.  This could be a good thing if you are hauling around a large crew-served artillery rocket. 
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2015, 07:16:06 AM »
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2015, 10:22:03 AM »
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here

Indeed, some very interesting shots in there!   :)

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2015, 05:30:51 AM »
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun:

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2015, 10:29:45 PM »
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2015, 03:14:47 AM »
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)

I didn't know that either
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2015, 10:28:05 AM »
Some very interesting photos of Australian Centurion Tanks (and other things) in Vietnam here

Out of interest, there's a Canadian fellow I work with every now and then, who I found out was a door gunner on a Huey in the 7th Cavalry, didn't know before that Canadians were involved (albeit voluntary)

IIRC less than a thousand (or was it more?) voluntarily served in Vietnam.  It compensated for the several thousand Americans who fled north to avoid the Draft.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2016, 05:20:31 AM »
Centurion turret works with Panther and M41 too.




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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2016, 10:33:20 AM »
I was reading about the shortened or lengthened tank hull. To get your width to length ratio back you could widen or narrow the hull accordingly. Either the lengthened or shortened hull has its potential for whiff coolness.

That 183mm gun is a monster! Did they get that off a WW2 cruiser?

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2016, 02:07:46 PM »
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun......

Speaking of big-turret tank destroyer variant of Centurion, I would like to go back to Conway for a bit.

The gun used on Conway is said to be the same as the one used on Conqueror and is said to have "lost much of its tactical advantage" with the advent of Royal Ordnance L7.

This reminds me of the People's Liberation Army, who back in the day of standardizing on L7-clone as main battle tank armament still mass-produced 120mm-gun PTZ-89 tank destroyers for fire support against Soviet armours coming down from the north.

I can't seem to find any APDS or APFSDS ammunition for the L1 gun.  Did the L1 gun ever have APDS or APFSDS ammunition?  Or is the lack of APDS and APFSDS ammunition a reason why it ended up getting superseded by the L7?
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2016, 04:34:54 PM »
A variant I wasn't aware of:  the FV 4005 experimental tank destroyer with a 183 mm gun:




There is now a 1/35 conversion kit for this:

« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 02:36:15 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2016, 11:12:44 AM »
Found along the way of my quest to find inspiration to solve my Leman Russ debacle......
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2016, 04:51:24 AM »
That is the Teledyne Continental Motors Low Profile Turret mounted on a Centurion Mk 5.  This system was developed in the mid 80's as part of the US Army Armored Gun System (AGS) program.  Teledyne developed a lightweight hull for this system which came to be known as the "expeditionary tank."  Teledyne also marketed the low profile turret as an upgrade solution for older vehicles such as the M60, Centurion, T-55 and AMX30.  When that branch of Teledyne (Teledyne Continental Motors General Products Division) was sold to General Dynamics in the mid 90's, GD took the low profile turret and adopted it for the Stryker as the M1128 Mobile Gun System.
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2016, 07:13:16 AM »
Some interesting shots showing the Australian Centurion Tanks first arriving:



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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2016, 03:53:55 PM »
The so-called Action X turret.

I wonder if its mantlet design is a forerunner of some sort to the one used on Chieftain.

I am also curious about how successful it is- despite the fact that it indeed didn't end up being mass-produced, a slightly reworked version was later used in another project, so I suppose whoever designed the turret must have done something right.

Suitable for all what-ifs involving a Centurion turret  ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 11:19:53 PM by dy031101 »
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2016, 10:50:11 AM »
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2016, 12:05:17 AM »
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.

Question: did they move the co-axial machinegun around?  Are my eyes playing tricks on me?  Or did they just get rid of the machinegun, and the exercise is all just a research project?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 01:36:28 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2016, 08:18:55 AM »
That was one of several Centurions which were reworked for the Chieftain MBT project.   They involved working out the internal mantlet and the reclining driver's seat.   They are mentioned in the Squadron/Signal Centurion in Action book, plus the Chieftain MBT book I have (author's name forgotten) which is in storage at the moment.

Question: did they move the co-axial machinegun around?  Are my eyes playing tricks on me?  Or did they just get rid of the machinegun, and the exercise is all just a research project?

AIUI it was a research project.  There was no co-ax added to the tank's mantlet.  What I think you believe might be a co-ax - the slot to the right of the mantlet in the upper glacis plate is actually for the gunner's sight.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2016, 09:33:54 AM »
Another question- on the Swingfire-augmented tank (shown here), are the Swingfire box launchers in any way armoured?
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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2016, 10:51:07 AM »
Another question- on the Swingfire-augmented tank (shown here), are the Swingfire box launchers in any way armoured?


I doubt it.  For some reason designers liked to leave their ATGWs mounted on MBTs and other AFVs unarmed in what were essentially "proof-of-concept" vehicles rather than operational ones.   Only the Israelis seem to have put their missiles inside the tank turret, rather than on the outside.  Perhaps they realised how vulnerable a piece of thin, mild metal is in combat?

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2016, 11:41:42 AM »
Or, possibly, because it is an augmentation, & thus a secondary weapon system, the costs in time, upgrades, weight & risk to the crew (a missile exploding/burning inside the turret armour is going to be more lethal than if it does so on the outside) of the add-on are not deemed to be worth it & the launch hatches/openings are weak points in the turret.

A tank with an integrated missile system built into it from the start could be another matter entirely. For starters most missile systems could fit into an armoured bustle at the rear of the turret & be raised/elevated to fire (the turret casting/design including armour between the crew compartment & the bustle). This would require a re-arrangement of how most turrets are laid out but could be easily worked into the design, rather than having to fit it ainto an existing lay-out.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2016, 02:48:04 AM »
A tank with an integrated missile system built into it from the start could be another matter entirely. For starters most missile systems could fit into an armoured bustle at the rear of the turret & be raised/elevated to fire (the turret casting/design including armour between the crew compartment & the bustle). This would require a re-arrangement of how most turrets are laid out but could be easily worked into the design, rather than having to fit it ainto an existing lay-out.

If I am going for a new turret as an upgrade, which one would you expect to be cheaper, trying to fit a 120mm gun or putting four Swingfire missiles into the bustle?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 03:51:52 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2016, 08:37:43 AM »
Not really my field of expertise but it would depend on how much redesign work would be needed on the original turret to fit the 120mm vs how much redesign is needed to fit the bustle & missiles.

My guess is that the gun upgrade would be cheaper.

Just slapping 4 unarmoured launcher boxes on the side would be even cheaper, still.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2016, 04:54:24 PM »
A new 120mm gun in a Centurion turret would be expensive to build.   You would need a new recoil system and a stronger turret ring to absorb the recoil sufficiently for the turret to remain seated on the vehicle.  You would need stronger traverse and elevation motors, because of the increased mass of the turret.

Adding some ATGWs in an armoured bustle would be considerably less expensive but you'd need to address the balance problems that such a heavy weight would bring, being so far away from the centre of mass of the turret.  You might also require to upgrade the turret rotation motors as well, to ensure that the turret still traverses sufficiently fast enough.

Adding externally mounted ATGWs would be the cheapest option in the short-term but would it be effective in the longer-term?  The missiles would be vulnerable to artillery fragments and small arms.   While they might be effective in the first encounter the enemy would learn to blanket any attacking force with artillery and MG fire to render their missiles impotent or damaged.

Offline Beekster

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2016, 01:31:34 AM »
I spotted the 40m SPAA idea a few pages back.  I'm considering something similar, a mid-1960s hypothetical IDF variant:  Use an AFV Club Meteor-engined Cent hull and the the turret from the Heller AMX-30 DCA.  Perhaps change out the guns; if I want to get radical I could try to fit my own IMI 60mm hypervelocity barrels.  If there's not enough width for that at the trunnions, I could always cut the turret and trunnions in half and add strip stock to widen the turret.

Offline Gingie

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2016, 03:36:53 AM »
I spotted the 40m SPAA idea a few pages back.  I'm considering something similar, a mid-1960s hypothetical IDF variant:  Use an AFV Club Meteor-engined Cent hull and the the turret from the Heller AMX-30 DCA.  Perhaps change out the guns; if I want to get radical I could try to fit my own IMI 60mm hypervelocity barrels.  If there's not enough width for that at the trunnions, I could always cut the turret and trunnions in half and add strip stock to widen the turret.


Here's the build pics from the drawing earlier in the thread

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=154.0
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 03:41:03 AM by Gingie »

Offline Story

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2016, 01:50:27 AM »
Didn't see where the thread talked about the South African OLIPHANT 1A. This is a 20 year old build, using a really really old (as in, motorized!) TAMIYA kit as the base and everything else looted from the spare box. The base color is NUTRIA, sort of a South African dirt brown.  South Africans thought the side skirts were more trouble than they were worth, considering the operational terrain, and the front fenders were easily damaged (like the Cuban T55s they faced).

Just noticed the left smoke grenade launcher is missing it's bottom tube. Bush damage, no doubt.






Background here, for the most part
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/South_Africa/Olifant_MkI.php

IIRC, the South Africans smuggled in the hulls and turrets from the Jordanians, then used an Israeli template to fit an L7 105mm main gun and 12 cylinder diesel drivetrain.

Used in combat against Cuban forces and their friends in Angola.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 01:55:09 AM by Story »

Offline Story

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2016, 02:11:02 AM »
There's also the Israeli mercenary Centurians (equipped with nuclear power plants and laser Gatling guns) of the TEXAS ISRAELI WAR of 1999 timeline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Texas-Israeli_War:_1999


Offline Volkodav

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2016, 07:44:06 PM »
Earlier on in the thread there was a suggestion of a US Army Centurion (or at least US markings for Korea) and I was wondering it could actually have happened.

My understanding was the M-24s struggled against the T34/85, the late model M-4 was a pretty good match, while the M-26 overmatched them but were compromised by their mobility in the terrain found in Korea, hence the types withdrawal and replacement with M-4s and M-46s at the earliest opportunity.  At the same time the Centurion developed a very solid reputation for its protection, mobility as well as the accuracy of it's gun, with (apparently) many US infantry units preferring / requesting Centurions in the DFS role when available. 

How about once the issues with the M-26 became apparent Britain was in a position to offer a regiment or brigade worth of Cents to the US for use in Korea.  Possibly these could have been the five regiments worth of Centurions (also ten regiments worth of Comets were planned for the CMF as well) Australia determined they needed for their post war army but never ordered.  In this alt they could have ordered them but made them available to the US for Korean operations. 

Assuming this deployment went well the US could have even developed their own version with US engine and 90mm gun which could become the NATO / MAP standard tank before eventually ending up with a 105mm diesel powered version.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: October 14, 2016, 12:51:22 PM »
Centurion Infantry Support Tank armed with the 25pdr/95mm Howitzer
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: October 14, 2016, 02:57:32 PM »
Centurion Infantry Support Tank armed with the 25pdr/95mm Howitzer

I will happily stand corrected but I believe the L9 165mm demolition gun on the Centurion AVRE was originally designed as the Close Support counterpart to the 20pdr tank gun, pretty much as the 3" served on the CS versions of 2pdr tanks and the 95mm on CS versions of 6pdr and 75mm tanks.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: October 15, 2016, 03:14:46 AM »
Don't forget the FV3802 which was was a Self-propelled 25-pdr artillery prototype based on the Centurion—engine at the rear as in the gun tank, but only five road wheels per side. The gun was fitted in a barbette with 45° traverse to each side.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2016, 04:04:39 AM »
Random Idea:  Centurion tank with turret from AMX-13
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2017, 03:55:46 PM »
Apparently the Swiss developed their Centurions into a series of turret bunkers.  Which allowed them to more easily defend the approaches to their country.

This included a specialised version intended to emplace the turrets in the bunker.  Apparently it had suspension which could be lowered to allow it to pass through road tunnels more easily.


Offline M.A.D

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2018, 03:28:48 AM »
Apparently the Swiss developed their Centurions into a series of turret bunkers.  Which allowed them to more easily defend the approaches to their country.

This included a specialised version intended to emplace the turrets in the bunker.  Apparently it had suspension which could be lowered to allow it to pass through road tunnels more easily.




Wow, how interesting  Rickshaw - so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the crane is there to lift and self-deploy the Centurion's turret into a fortification?

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2018, 03:21:33 PM »
Basically, yes.  Once emplaced the turret was then built into the fortifications more fully.

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2018, 01:59:46 AM »
Kind of like the Heuschrecke 10:


« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 02:01:43 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2018, 06:51:12 AM »
Well, I learned something new today! Thanks!

Offline dy031101

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Re: Centurion Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2018, 11:45:11 PM »
Videogame illustration of a what-if Centurion Marksman:
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 11:48:26 PM by dy031101 »
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