Author Topic: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 27609 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« on: June 11, 2012, 04:27:46 AM »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 09:52:41 AM »
Think I'm right in saying that, with extra Sidewinder pylons, Zeus RHAWR aerials and Matra rocket pods, that's an RAF Harrier, not a USMC one...... ;D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 11:15:32 AM »
Think I'm right in saying that, with extra Sidewinder pylons, Zeus RHAWR aerials and Matra rocket pods, that's an RAF Harrier, not a USMC one...... ;D
Indeed, unless the USMC wishes to make operational use of their recent acquisitions.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 02:44:31 AM »
Hmmm...that could be doable
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 02:58:50 AM »
Jose, that delta harrier looks great!
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 12:40:21 PM »


Looks like an interesting variation on McDD's proposed Harrier follow-ons (Model 293?).

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 12:46:51 PM »
Pegasus, the Heart of the Harrier makes reference to a studied stretch of the present Harrier II+ with lengths and rough locations.  I've got some material from St. Louis that shows the locations better.  I'm very tempted to do one.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 10:03:09 AM »
Replying to yourself is bad form, but I did locate that drawing of a stretched AV-8B+.  There's another image, front on, that intriques, too.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 05:32:44 PM »
Interesting
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 09:02:28 PM »
Replying to yourself is bad form, but I did locate that drawing of a stretched AV-8B+.  There's another image, front on, that intriques, too.

I added in a plug like that for my Sea Harrier F.3/F.13 project, the nose for it comes off a F-4E.  The idea is that the intercept system needed a dedicated operator so it had to be a two seater.  The plug was to offset the systems extra weight or something along those lines.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2012, 04:12:34 AM »
Harrier T.10 conversion built by Frank Mitchell using the 1:32nd scale Trumpeter Harrier kit

Click on html or image to view the Harrier T.10 conversion article. 


(Image source: Fank Mitchell via Hyperscale)

Wowsers!  This guy has some serious talent. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 11:38:35 AM »
Well, there's the two-seat, radar-equipped Harrier II demonstrator I put together a decade ago for the Harrier SIG.  I really need to revisit and upgrade that some time; I'd love to do that in 1/48 or 1/72 (got the pieces to do both if I can find them).  Methinks that, combined with the extra hardpoints of the RAF version and the wingtip Sidewinders St. Louis trialed could make for an interesting basis for a very capable stretch version.

Too, I've got a copy of the small brochure for a FAA version of the AV-8B+; thinking of building it as a Harrier FGA.11 or FGR.11.  I'm thinking that 804 Sqdn would be a user of these and would have one marked up for display and Tiger Meets.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 11:46:20 AM by elmayerle »

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 11:53:15 AM »
Stepping back to the First Generation Harriers, I was thinking of a Harrier GR.3B (Harrier Gr.3/3A with LIDS ala' AV-8C and LRMTS replaced by the ARBS of the second generation Harrier and the A-4M) in RAuxAF markings.  Similarly, a Sea Harrier FRS.1A with similar mods to the airframe (perhaps with some suitable radar upgrades that don't affect radome contour) to back up the Sea Harrier FA.2.  If you wanted to take things a bit farther, fit both with the zero-scarf forward nozzles of the second generation Harriers.

One other thought, use the original radar nose configuration trialed for the Maritime Harrier proposal and apply it to the first-generation trainer to make a more suitable Sea Harrier trainer inbetween the Hunter T.8M and the Sea Harrier FRS.1 itself.  I could see that version also getting the LIDS et al.).

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 04:41:47 PM »
That's a nice build.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »
AV-8B subtype in Swedish splinter.   
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2013, 10:22:40 AM »
I hear you.  Have a GR.5 planned as a AJ.38
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2013, 09:40:05 AM »
Gr.7/9 with a Blue Vixen radar, AIM-120's, and in service with Sweden in Splinter cammo.   

Edit:   Check Daryl for early onset senility!   ;D   I totally forgot doing just two posts above.   :-\
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 09:47:27 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 11:36:45 AM »
Gr.7/9 with a Blue Vixen radar, AIM-120's, and in service with Sweden in Splinter cammo.   
Fit the basic nose of the AV-8B+ for at least some similarity with the proposed version of the AV-8B+ to the FAA.  It had the B+'s AN/APG-65 but I could see it fitted with a modified Blue Vixen, too, and carrying AIM-132's in place of Sidewinders.  Perhaps later adding a capability for Meteor BVRAAMs.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2013, 12:19:31 PM »
1:48 sources for the missiles?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 12:21:39 PM »
1:48 sources for the missiles?

Which ones?
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 12:25:07 PM »
 :-\ :-[

Sorry....AIM-132 and Meteors.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 12:31:23 PM »
If memory serves me correctly, there's a 1/48 Eurofighter kit out there that has a plethora of weapons with it, including both of these.  One of our co-conspirators here passed their 1/48 SOL resin Meteors on to me after getting that kit.  If it also has IRIS-T missiles, I could see a Norwegian radar-equipped Harrier with those and either AIM-120's or Meteors.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 12:31:45 PM »
:-\ :-[

Sorry....AIM-132 and Meteors.

A 1/48 Revell GermanyTyphoon Single Seater will supply both (2 AIM-132s and4 Meteors I believe).  You can also buy each individually I believe (e.g. ozmods for the AIM-132s)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 12:36:53 PM »
:-\ :-[

Sorry....AIM-132 and Meteors.

A 1/48 Revell GermanyTyphoon Single Seater will supply both (2 AIM-132s and4 Meteors I believe).  You can also buy each individually I believe (e.g. ozmods for the AIM-132s)
I've got AIM-132s from Oz-Mods in other scales, so those are easily available.  Use 'em along with my resin Meteors on a Swedish Harrier, F-20, or severely upgraded Draken.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 12:40:03 PM »
Did the AN/APG-65 radar have any anti-shipping capability?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 12:50:43 PM »
Yes.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 12:54:55 PM »
Good.  Thanks.

There is a Hasegawa B+ kit in the stash already.   But I think it has the 65% LERX.

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 01:01:33 PM »
AV-8A, stationed in Alaska, large drop tanks and Americanized Sea Eagles.   Or Greece.  Or Turkey.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2013, 09:24:08 AM »
Good.  Thanks.

There is a Hasegawa B+ kit in the stash already.   But I think it has the 65% LERX.
There are plenty of aftermarket replacements for that.

I've got a 1/48 Av-8B+ that's going to be combined with AV-8B+ and GR.7 cockpit detailing sets to make a Harrier FGR.11 in FAA markings (204 Sqdn, I reckon).  Might do one as an operational one and one as a "showbird".

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »
Why did the first generation Harrier use fairly small auxiliary fuel tanks?  Weight restrictions?  Mission profile?   
 
Would fitment of somewhat enlarged tanks be reasonable?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2013, 08:28:49 AM »
AV-8A, stationed in Alaska, large drop tanks and Americanized Sea Eagles.   Or Greece.  Or Turkey.
I doubt you could do both the large drop tanks and the Americanized Sea Eagles, both are heavy stores which need the inboard pylon on each wing.  The outboard pylons don't have near the load capacity of the inboard ones.  I could see one tank and one missile.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2013, 08:32:33 AM »
Why did the first generation Harrier use fairly small auxiliary fuel tanks?  Weight restrictions?  Mission profile?   
 
Would fitment of somewhat enlarged tanks be reasonable?
If memory serves me correctly, mostly overall weight restrictions.  The larger fuel tanks were used on occasion for ferry missions where nothing was carried on the outboard hardpoints.  The Harrier's forte was BAI and it wouldn't need external tankage for that.  External tanks would primarily be for ferry operations when you'd also have strakes beneath the fuselage rather than gunpods.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2013, 08:34:57 AM »
Thanks.
BAI?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2013, 08:54:01 AM »
Thanks.
BAI?
BAI = Battlefield Air Interdiction - Close Support that crosses over the line of battle.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2013, 08:01:43 PM »
Advanced BAI, even. Initially they were to operate damned near in the mud with the infantry (dispersed at clearings not far behind the artillery), partially due to their short combat radius & partially because they were supposed to supply "immediate" support to the infantry.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2013, 12:41:45 AM »
AV-8A, overall satin olive drab and fluorescent red-orange outer flying surfaces.  U.S. Army.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 01:26:54 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2013, 09:46:18 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.   
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Offline Scooterman

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2013, 10:06:08 AM »
Not really.  Any aircraft could carry a LGB, but would need somebody else, either in another aircraft or on the ground, to laze the target if the aircraft didn't have it's own capibility.  Your timeframe could work, say if the Harrier had used a Pave Spike pod on the C/L and LGBs on the inboards.  A lot of work to do that though in a AV-8A.  Granted the Corps today fly LITENING pods and LGBs on Harrier IIs but the workload between an A model and B are very different.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2013, 10:20:06 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.




Nope, just need one of these guys around and you're golden  :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2013, 10:54:00 AM »
Well, I'm not sure of the equipment volume requirements, but I keep thinking of a Harrier GR.3 nose with the LRMTS replaced by a suitable designator's guts.  Add in the LIDs from the R/L AV-8C and you'd have a nice combo.

I could see such a Harrier variant in a nice two- or three-tone desert scheme over Irag in Desert Storm; especially since there've been AV-8A's in such temporary schemes for war games.

As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 11:30:43 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »
Quote
As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.

Such as the nose found in the AFV Club RF-5E?   Or are there a variety of noses?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit:   Perused the Stash Storage Department and found a Monogram F-5E.   There is a short recce nose right in the kit.     :icon_music: :icon_music: :icon_music:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And thanks to each for the RW information. :)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:19:49 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 12:12:24 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.


If you look carefully at this Marine Corp AV-8B+ you'll see it has a GBU-31 JDAM on the inner pylon,  I thought this was a guided bomb ---

I tried to get a good photo of it but people just kept getting in the way.

 

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2013, 02:21:09 AM »
Note the painted cold nozzles and open front landing gear doors.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2013, 03:13:18 AM »
Daryl's question was about an AV-8A, i.e. 1st generation. However I think the answer's still the same: carrying an LGB and dropping it is a bit of switchology and wiring. RAF GR.3s dropped Paveways during the Falklands war on targets illuminated by FACs on the ground, so it must be possible for a 1st gen aircraft.

As to re-packing the guts of a designaotr pod into the nose of a GR.3, I think that's on too. If you look at a contemporary TIALD pod, it isn't huge. You might have to fatten/stretch/reprofile the nose extension a little, but you're going to have to do that anyway to accomodate the sensor head. You'd probably also have to lose the side-facing F.95 camera, but again, probably a worthwhile trade-off. If the mose ended up longer and heavier enough to cause a problem, you could always fit the extended tail fin from the 2-seater to compensate.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2013, 03:15:32 AM »
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2013, 03:33:55 AM »
Quote
As another approach, since the US Army also evaluated the Northrop F-5, a F-5E in Army markings with the radar nose replaced by the short recce nose with the cameras replaced by the optics from a designator pod and one of the cannon replaced by the guts of the pod, the barrel opening now serving as a cooling air scoop for the electronics.  This could make a nice team display of an attack Harrier and it's Fast-FAC F-5E designator, both in Asia Minor schemes for southwest asian conflicts.

Such as the nose found in the AFV Club RF-5E?   Or are there a variety of noses?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit:   Perused the Stash Storage Department and found a Monogram F-5E.   There is a short recce nose right in the kit.     :icon_music: :icon_music: :icon_music:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The short recce nose from the Monogram kit was what I had in mind.  It's designed to be a line replaceable unit for the radar on F-5's when basic recce ability is needed quickly.  The RF-5E is a dedicated conversion for more intensive recce operations.  If you want a two-seat recce/fast FAC aircraft, this nose will fit on a F-5F but I'm not at all certain  that it would fit on a F-5B since that and the T-38 had the front cockpit "shoved forward" into where the guns are on the single-seater.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2013, 04:04:34 AM »
Quote
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.

Nice!

 Monogram's early Harrier is a jewel IMHO and shouldn't be too hard to rescribe the more visible details.   And if the Museum of Flight's Harrier is any indication, leaving the more complex raised panel lines is acceptable too.    But given the rumor of 1:48 resin AV-8A gubbins coming along soon and the decals being recently issued, one wonders just what styrene is to be moulded soon. 
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2013, 04:30:48 AM »
Well, one can hope for a re-release of either the Monogram kit or the Tamiya Harrier GR.1.  I, for one, would also love to see the conversion bits for doing a proper AV-8C from either of those.

I keep having this idea of a real-world whif where the Spanish upgrade their AV-8S aircraft to a standard comparable to the AV-8C before seeing them to the Thai's.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2013, 06:56:18 AM »
Ok...another question if I may:

Would the AV-8A need visible upgrades to drop smart bombs?   

Reason for the question:   The Army keeps their Harriers through the first Iraq conflict.

Dropping LGBs doesn’t require much more some switches and wiring if there is another source of laser designation (another aircraft or ground asset). But the hard part then is making sure you are in the right place so the bomb can fly to the target. For a fixed target like a bridge this can be managed but for more complex targets it can be very hit and miss in that the bomb is dropped outside of the zone needed to be able to see the laser designation.

The solution to this problem is to equip the LGB dropper with a laser spot tracker. This is a sight able to see where the laser is pointing. So the pilot will have a target display via the HUD of where the laser designation spot is and so fly the aircraft into an appropriate position to drop the bomb to be able to hit the target. One of the best known is the PAVE PENNY fitted to the side of the nose of the A-10 and under the intake of the A-7.

The RAF Harrier GR.3 had a laser spot tracker mounted in the nose and a more complex nav-attack system than the USMC AV-8A Harrier. The RAF Harrier had an INS and moving map display which was removed from the AV-8A to allow for quicker turn around and ease of sea operations (no need to stabilise the INS before takeoff). All of this reduced their strike potential.

So if you want a US Army Harrier flying precision strike in the Gulf War then perhaps they could be built to the RAF standard not the USMC.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2013, 07:01:03 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2013, 07:33:35 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.

Putting on the Whiff hat it would be cool to see a two seat US Army Harrier II with PAVE TACK under the belly and 24 Hellfires in Brimstone style triple rail launchers under the wings...

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2013, 07:53:52 AM »
My idea for the everyone-except-the-air-forces harriers would be that the USMC and RM go for a simple, multi-role aircraft like the AV-8A in order to get maximum flexibility from limited deck spots on their amphibious ships. The US and British armies however, with no deck space limitations and more ambitions to build their own "private" air forces, go for multiple specialist versions: strike aircraft with TFR and INS, CAS aircraft with LRMTS and recce aircraft with all-camera noses.

I built a model of the British Army photo-recce one, but struggling with the old Airfix Harrier put me off trying the rest:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,25092.0/highlight,harrier+pr+4.html




The little tubes on the wingtips are supposed to be single SRAAM tubes.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2013, 07:59:20 AM »
Well, a modified RAF spec, including the radios for contacting engaged units (the aerial on top that the AV-8A has) and with the LRMTS replaced with the guts of PAVE PENNY or equivalent.  By the time of the first Gulf War, I could also see the US Army Harriers reworked to incorporate the same upgrades the AV-8C has in our timeline.

Putting on the Whiff hat it would be cool to see a two seat US Army Harrier II with PAVE TACK under the belly and 24 Hellfires in Brimstone style triple rail launchers under the wings...
There's a Harrier book out there that shows a mockup of a Hellfire quad rack on a Harrier II inboard hard points; have to scan that pic in as it's the only time I've seen it.  But, seriously, this would be a most attractive whif and quite plausible if the US Army went on to operate the Harrier.

Weaver,

I like the recce nose, but wouldn't they be more likely to just adopt the recce pod the RAF Harriers used, or at least a recce pod of suitable weight and size (I believe RAF Harriers flew with Jaguar recce pods at some points)?

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2013, 08:21:42 AM »
I built a model of the British Army photo-recce one, but struggling with the old Airfix Harrier put me off trying the rest:

The scabbed on fairing under the nose looks great.

My idea for the everyone-except-the-air-forces harriers would be that the USMC and RM go for a simple, multi-role aircraft like the AV-8A in order to get maximum flexibility from limited deck spots on their amphibious ships. The US and British armies however, with no deck space limitations and more ambitions to build their own "private" air forces, go for multiple specialist versions: strike aircraft with TFR and INS, CAS aircraft with LRMTS and recce aircraft with all-camera noses.

It’s an interesting idea ‘everyone-except-the-air-forces’ and maybe an idea for a group build? What if there was never, ever an air force, anywhere? If in 1918 General Jan Smuts reported back to Lloyd George that there was no need for an air force just a demarcation of responsibilities between the RFC and RNAS. The Army would get strategic bombing and the navy air defence of the homeland in addition to their tactical roles. Without the example of the Royal Air Force all the world’s other air arms remained part of their Navy and Army and in some cases also the Marines.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2013, 08:41:11 AM »

Weaver,

I like the recce nose, but wouldn't they be more likely to just adopt the recce pod the RAF Harriers used, or at least a recce pod of suitable weight and size (I believe RAF Harriers flew with Jaguar recce pods at some points)?


Well you could say that about any specialised photo-recce aircraft: why bother with an RF-4E or a Mirage IIIR either? Don't forget, there are no "RAF" Harriers in this scenario: the armies and marines corps own the project right from the start, so they don't have to "piggy-back" on somebody else's program. The marine corps use recce pods for maximum versatility from the small number of aircraft on their ships, but the armies want the nearest thing to their own "proper" air forces that they can get away with.

RAF Harriers didn't use the Jaguar pod, which was pretty big: probably too big to fit between the main and nose gears on a Harrier. Harriers used a smaller pod with just cameras in it: no IR Linescan like the Jag pod.

Harrier Pod: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/postww2/ac/Harrier/Harrier.html
Jaguar Pod: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/postww2/ac/Jaguar/Jaguar.html


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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2013, 09:06:49 AM »
Leave it to the British to design a delightfully Whiffable aircraft!  :)


Later, in Afghanistan, the US Army gets AV-8x's based on airframe upgrades similar to the FA.2.   
Edit:  They don't preclude the Harrier II series.

Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:27:26 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2013, 09:11:41 AM »
Well, with no RAF Harrier buy, I could see a dedicated recce version being built though I suspect it'd have secondary capabilities just as a matter of course.  I'd be willing to wager that the various armies and marine corps don't go for a common equipment fit, though I can see going for a common airframe.  I still think that a recce capacity that can be quickly fitted to any aircraft when needed is worth having.

Regarding pods used by the Harriers, I've seen pictures of more than one pod in use, something about the older, wet film, pods being replaced by ones from another aircraft.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2013, 10:36:02 AM »
Leave it to the British to design a delightfully Whiffable aircraft!  :)


The two seat Harrier II (T.10) is crying out for some night attack mods with that high rear seat.



Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.


On the A-7 PAVE PENNY was faired in under the intake. Something similar could be possible under the nose of the Harrier because there is spare room unlike an A-10 with the GAU-8 and gear taking up all the real estate under the nose. Though there was nothing in the actual nose cone so it made a lot of sense to put the optic seeker there on the GR.3 and Harrier II. For less drag. Maybe on an AV-8A without the INS there would be enough room to have PAVE PENNY within the exsisting mould line so it wouldn't need a nose extension and look like an AV-8B. Catch people out with the AV-8B nose cone and the low set cockpit.


Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2013, 10:56:15 AM »
Getting back to the Pave Penny, there has to be a way of putting it on a Harrier 1 without creating the Probiscis Monkey look of the GR.3 nose.  Directly under the chin?  In place of the gun pods?   Note to self: think this through for a while.
Well, the obvious one is to take the "Blue Eric" route and install the Pave Penny in the front of a gun pod structure, leaving the remainder for other kit if needed.  Alternatively, you could refair the nose around the Pave Penny guts and have something that resembles the nose of a Hunter FGA.11.  Personally, I like the idea of an enlarged nose for the Pave Penny because the later could then later be fitted with the ARBS used on A-4M's and Harrier II's.

Regarding the two-seat Harriers, I could see the second-generation two-seaters being used operationally, especially where a second set of eyes would be useful.  Perhaps even a radar-equipped one like the demonstrator I schemed sometime back (and still intend to model).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 10:59:27 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2013, 12:41:06 PM »
So, just as a visualization exercise for the 1:48 scale modeler, three "near real" US Army Harriers could be:

1.  Monogram AV-8A with LIDS, RWR, Pave Penny under the chin, LGB's on the outer pylons,  Desert Storm.
2.  Airfix FA.2 but the nose has no Blue Vixen and instead has a Hughes AN/ASB-19 unit in the nose and a glass cockpit.  Afghanistan/Desert Storm 2
3.  Airfix FRS.1 instead of the AV-8A

Other details such as chaff/flare dispensers, ECM lumps and bumps, etc. presumed to be added too.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2013, 07:44:43 PM »
The two seat Harrier II (T.10) is crying out for some night attack mods with that high rear seat.

It's what I thought when I started this T-10/TAV-8B conversion:
Top pic is my Sea Harrier F.3 or whatever armed with British developed long range AIM missiles (using Martel airframes). The idea is that the system needed a dedicated GIB to co-ordinate the defence with other single seat Sea Harriers carrying other AIM Martels by data-link
Second pic the Martel with a jet engine
Third pic is showing where I've added a plug into the rear fuselage and also the master data-link pod under the fuselage on a modified gun pack housing.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:47:13 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2013, 07:59:04 PM »
Then there's this one, a dedicated ECM Harrier.  The idea was influenced by this model in the top pic (I can't for the life of me remember who drew it, but he was on the What-If Forum)

I'm attaching an F-16 nose to it and it will all be blended in, this nose would be packed with ECM associated stuff and instead of having the two strakes/gun pods under the fuselage, I've modified a couple of ECM pods from an EA-6
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 08:04:53 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2013, 08:40:37 PM »
Well, with no RAF Harrier buy, I could see a dedicated recce version being built though I suspect it'd have secondary capabilities just as a matter of course. 


Oh sure - note the wingtip SRAAMs. You could always put the pylons back on and have an attack capability not far short of an AV-8A.

Quote
I'd be willing to wager that the various armies and marine corps don't go for a common equipment fit, though I can see going for a common airframe.  I still think that a recce capacity that can be quickly fitted to any aircraft when needed is worth having.


They don't - that's why it takes several models to show the range. The two marine corps agree with you about the podded recce. The two armies want maximum capability from their "mini-me" airforces. Such is inter-service politics.....

Quote
Regarding pods used by the Harriers, I've seen pictures of more than one pod in use, something about the older, wet film, pods being replaced by ones from another aircraft.


There's no way the original Jaguar wet-film pod would go on a Harrier for the reasons I've stated (there's a good pic in that link I put up). Much later on, Jags got the Digital Joint Recce Pod (DJRP) that was much shorter than the original pod, and those were subsequently shared with the Harrier force. That was only possible because it was as short as the original Harrier wet film pod though.

This is the original Harrier pod:


This is the original Jaguar pod:


This is the DJRP under a Jag:




Re Pave Penny, remember that all GR.1/AV-8As had a side-facing F.95 camera in the nose cone. Remove that and you'd almost have room for a Pave Penny: maybe it would need a slighty extended cone, but certainly not as long as the GR.3 one, which held both the camera and the LRMTS. If you have a look at a cutaway of the GR.3 (easy to find on the internet) you'll see how much shorter it could be without the camera, and I think I'm right in saying that Pave Penny is even smaller than LRMTS.



 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:19:56 AM by Weaver »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2013, 11:09:27 PM »
I rather agree on all counts. 
-------------------------------------------EDIT-----------------------------
I had a chance to do some digging.  THe Harrier GR.1/GR.3 only used the five-camera wet-film pod.  The Harrier II in RAF service could use either this pod or a VICON pod that recorded the images electronically.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:40:43 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2013, 04:46:25 AM »
Going into a different mode altogether, I am hoping the up and coming movie "Planes'' features some Harrier derivatives.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2013, 05:54:54 AM »
Just a thought with regard to using the Sea Harrier FRS.1 airframe with other fitments, a version of the Harrier proposed to the PLAAF fitted a GR.3's avionics to a Sea harrier airframe because that was the airframe in production at the time.  I could see that being done for various Army and Marine versions to take advantage of the better fivew from the Sea Harrier cockpit.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2013, 08:11:03 AM »
Just a thought with regard to using the Sea Harrier FRS.1 airframe with other fitments, a version of the Harrier proposed to the PLAAF fitted a GR.3's avionics to a Sea harrier airframe because that was the airframe in production at the time.  I could see that being done for various Army and Marine versions to take advantage of the better fivew from the Sea Harrier cockpit.

Considerably more avionics space too (which was the prime reason for the cockpit mod: the increased visibility was a nice bonus). For a strike version, you might be able to get a small terrain-following radar in the tip of the nose with the LRMTS below and behind it in a Tornado-style ventral fairing, or even semi-recessed.


PS: fixed the pics in my post about recce pods.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 08:22:45 AM by Weaver »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2013, 09:48:18 AM »
LRMTS just below and behind the TFR radome in a manner similar to the original radar-nosed Jaguar proposal.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2013, 10:01:47 AM »
(goes to stash, digs out 1:48 Airfix Harriers, discovers Monogram AV-8a missing canopy and remembers it was to graft the SHAR nose/tail onto)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real world questions for the Whiffverse:   Where did the A, B, C designations stop?   In other words, would an updated AV-8C been an E, F, or G, etc.?   And yes, I'm disincluding the AV-8S intentionally.    Then, finally, was there a FRS.2?   Or at least proposed?    And yes, in my case work up, this is all going into US Army and USMC scenarios.   


Thanks
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 11:01:31 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2013, 11:09:08 AM »
For whatever reason, you just have the AV-8A (which really should've been an AV-6B and was initially listed that way in some sources), its improved/rebuilt version, the AV-8C, and the AV-8B which comes in basic, NA, and + versions when the last two really should have been AV-8D and AV-8E.  What was to have been the Sea Harrier FRS.2 became the Sea Harrier FA.2 though the miracle of modern governmental PR.  I don't know that you'd see further rebuilds of the AV-8A/C airframes, there comes a time when you simply need to construct new airframes.  Mind you, I could see the LIDS from the AV-8C being used on Harrier GR.3B's and T.4B's as well as Sea Harrier FRS.1A's (perhaps with a dedicated small radar such as certain Italian firms make or a derivative of the F-16 or F-20 radar).

Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2013, 12:10:48 PM »
BAe's proposal for a big metal wing (as opposed to McDD's big composite one) was retro-fittable to earlier airframes, so had it been adopted, you could have had first gen. "AV-8B/C/D" etc and Harrier GR.5/6/7.

The second version of the Sea Harrier changed from FRS.1 to FA.2 for two reasons:

1. The "R".

The FRS.1 had the same F.95 oblique camera as the GR.1/GR.3, but on the other side and moved back under the cockpit floor. In the FA.2, the camera was sacrificed for a video that recorded HUD/CRT imagery. No camera = no "R".

2. The "S".

Allegedly, the "S" for "Strike" in FRS.1 signified that the aircraft were wired to carry a WE.177 tac nuke on one of the inboard pylons, which was non-jettisonable (in accordance with NATO rules) as a result. This capability was dropped in the FA.2, hence "A" for "Attack".

And no, neither decision is entirely consistent with other examples of RAF/RN designation policy: I suspect there have been more changes of policy than aircraft to apply them to..... ::)
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2013, 12:20:23 PM »
Yep...new construction instead of rebuilds.  And, additionally, it would be irrespective of other versions being constructed as well.   Plausible?  Heck no!  ;D

Edit:   And with all the real life info in this thread alone, there are enough variations to keep the Somewhat Near Real spurious building going on for a number of years with just Harriers!     Thanks to each for the contributions thus far.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 12:38:34 PM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2013, 03:54:38 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2013, 06:32:40 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.
An EAV-8J along the lines of an EA-7L?  that could be interesting.  Still think they need AV-8J's with full radar fit (for local content rules, use a version of the F-2's radar) to go with it.

Offline Geoff

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2013, 06:49:26 AM »
As an aside the JMSDF looked at the TAV-8B as an EW platform for their through deck cruisers.
An EAV-8J along the lines of an EA-7L?  that could be interesting.  Still think they need AV-8J's with full radar fit (for local content rules, use a version of the F-2's radar) to go with it.

Me too

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2013, 02:23:09 AM »
If true VTOL was removed as a requirement, is there an engine adaptable to the T.2 that would allow the carriage of two AN/ALQ-99 pods, tail receiver, and extra fuel?   Or are we looking at something that needs a runway as long as Houston?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2013, 04:41:17 AM »
Define what you mean by "true VTOL removed"?  Do you still want something with STOL or are you after a pure CTOL.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2013, 04:53:12 AM »
What did they call it....S/VTOL?    Short runs to become airborne vs. true vertical take off. 

Perhaps some background would clarify better:  The scenario going through my head was Korea, current day, conflict erupts.  USMC/US Army/UN need jamming in a rapidly changing battlefield.   EA-18G's and EA-6B present but are in insufficient numbers on station so the Harrier is reentered into service. (yeah, right.  But it's the Whiffverse.   ;D)    But, would the above loadout be too heavy?  Or too heavy at least for a short run takeoff where say, for instance, 300 feet of PSP could be tossed out relatively quickly for take off/landing.    It seems that the small winged Harriers could not land with a weapons load.      Given the terrain of the Koreas, the Harrier seems like a reasonable option...or an Osprey but that's a different discussion.   ;D
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2013, 05:07:02 AM »
TheHarrier rarely does VTO in service anyway.  It is more often a rolling STO, so you are already there.

Re the weight, I doubt it would be a problem.  I understand the AN/ALQ-99 pods weight approx 950lb each so somehting such as a T.10 or T.12 (backseater to operate the pods etc) with 2 - 4 pods should be doable.

Would look good in either USMC/RAF/RN  or even at a stretch in Sth Korean markings.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2013, 06:50:18 AM »
It's actually what I'm using here, except they're turned upside-down and what was the bottom is now made conformal to the underside of the Harrier

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2013, 12:45:33 PM »
A rather interesting read on the GR.9 capabilities:
http://grandlogistics.blogspot.com/2012/03/libya-harrier-versus-tornado.html

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2013, 08:05:29 PM »
I have been slapped down else where for suggesting that the entire "Joint Harrier Force" was a ploy by the RAF to gain control of the Sea Harriers so they could position themselves to kill RN carrier aviation (and carriers) all together.  The RAF have always excelled at staff work and grand strategy.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2013, 12:41:50 AM »
The ancient doctrine of Those Who Control The Ships Win Everything still applies.   

So perhaps ex-RAF Harrier GR.x's could be put into RN markings and stationed aboard merchant ships traveling through Somalian waters.   Fuel, Adens, and Brimstones.

Or take it even further:  Asia heats up: China v. Japan, China v. Vietnam, N. Korea v.  S. Korea yet use to their roles in current economies, trade continues.    For merchant ship defense, Harrier II's are fitted with Blue Vixen radars, Meteors and IRIS-T's.    RN markings of course.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:33:23 AM by Daryl J. »
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2013, 02:53:52 AM »
This pic I posted earlier can be credited to 'Spinners', who is on the What-If Forum

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2013, 04:20:27 AM »
Cool!  I really wish he would come join us.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2013, 02:29:37 PM »
While Kongsberg Penguins likely would be better carried by the big wing Harrier, how about putting a pair on the inner pylons of a FA.2 and fuel on the outer pylons.   Practical?  I'm sure not.  As to the designation of the machine, would FGR.2 work?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2013, 10:50:16 PM »
While Kongsberg Penguins likely would be better carried by the big wing Harrier, how about putting a pair on the inner pylons of a FA.2 and fuel on the outer pylons.   Practical?  I'm sure not.  As to the designation of the machine, would FGR.2 work?
Given what the pylons are stressed for and plumbed for, I could see a Penguin on each outer pylon with fuel tanks on the inner pylons.

I'm scheming an earlier iteration for an Argentinian "Matador" operating out of the Malvinas (so fuel tanks are not required).  Inner pylons carry Martin Pescador missiles (think of it as an indigenously-produced equivalent of the early Bullpup) with Sidewinders on the outer pylons and the guidance pod on the centerline hardpoint.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2013, 07:11:16 AM »
As a carry over from the A-4 thread, how about a SAV-8 derived from a two-seater and carrying, for the first generation, just sensors, and, for the second generation, sensors and weapons or just one of those.  I could see a sensor equipped SAV-8 pursuing a contact while and armed helo takes the shot; or vice-versa.  For that matter, a two-ship SAV-8 hunter-killer team.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2013, 07:29:08 AM »
Don't forget the third necessary team member:  the refueler.   ;D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2013, 12:22:05 PM »
Don't forget the third necessary team member:  the refueler.   ;D
The second Harrier SIG "Whif" issue has a Harrier KR.3(N) and I can see a Harrier KR.5(N) being built from those airframes not upgraded to GR.7's with large tanks on the two heavy-duty hardpoints on each wing and the two light-weight hardpoints carrying small tanks.  On the US side, I can see the guts of a buddy-refueling pod inserted into a modified AV-8B cannon pod with the ammo pod mounting the signal lights and carrying associated avionics and controls.  A KV-8B with four large tanks and two small tanks on the outer hardpoints would be unique.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2013, 02:20:24 PM »
Sea Harrier FRS.1  with a pair of Kormorans for various NATO countries besides Germany.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »
Sea Harrier FRS.1  with a pair of Kormorans for various NATO countries besides Germany.

How about Greece, Turkey or Denmark - all those little islands to operate from.....
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2013, 02:36:53 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48? 
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2013, 04:38:08 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48?
Would it be the SHAR or the SHAR airframe with the radar replaced by a LRMTS, or equivalent avionics, as was proposed for the PRC? 

I can think of a few ideas; taking a leaf from F-102 actions in Southeast Asia, how about a modified Sidewinder with the seeker tuned to IR signatures of vehicles for night interdiction?  Or, if you're going into a air-defense radar thick environment, perhaps some upgraded Sidearms based on later-model Sidewinder airframes?

I'd reckon that the small, four round, 70mm rocket pod would work, too.  As I remember, the RAF carried single MATRA pods on that hardpoint, so anything up to that weight should work.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2013, 04:49:42 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48?

What role do you see the Army SHAR's performing?
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2013, 05:00:08 AM »
Any kind of ground attack, no air to air.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2013, 05:09:39 AM »
Ignoring the obvious "why not just get AV-8A/B etc", I would imagine that pretty much what ever the AV-8A/GR.3 used would be the way to go.  Therefore, unguided rockets, iron/cluster bombs, AGMs such as Maverick...
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »
Ignoring the obvious "why not just get AV-8A/B etc", I would imagine that pretty much what ever the AV-8A/GR.3 used would be the way to go.  Therefore, unguided rockets, iron/cluster bombs, AGMs such as Maverick...
Well, if you're buying in the early 1970's, the SHAR airframe would be the only one in production and what you'd buy would be based off that.  Much of the reason the proposed variant for the PLAAF was based on the SHAR airframe with GR.3 avionics and LRMTS (as well as commonality with the SHAR variant proposed to the PLANAF).  I could see the US Army doing a later, joint buy, of the AV-8B with the USMC.

*chuckle* To really confuse things, perhaps the US Army aircraft using modified SHAR airframes could be designated AV-6B's?  Since the Kestrel was the XV-6A....
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 05:30:38 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2013, 05:21:42 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2013, 12:42:28 AM »
As a counter to the MiG-29s reportedly being sent to Syria, the Harrier GR.7/9s the U.S. just got from the UK get AV-8B seats and sent to Israel and stationed in various urban buildings for a temporary air defense squadron.    So....4 Meteors and 2 IRIS-T's perhaps.   
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2013, 08:53:10 AM »
Locally-refurbished Iranian Sea Harrier with R-27T missiles under outer wing pylons.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 08:55:23 AM by dy031101 »
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: September 28, 2013, 01:15:03 AM »
A question about the Blue Vixen radar if I may: any air-to-ground or anti-shipping capabilities? 

The reason for asking: I find the pointy nose on the American Harrier rather ugly.   Geeze....we detail-oriented men can be so impossible at times!!!  ;D.   Given the new-tool FA.2 coming down the pike, I'd love to build a couple Coulda Shoulda's. 
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: September 28, 2013, 03:23:53 AM »
A question about the Blue Vixen radar if I may: any air-to-ground or anti-shipping capabilities? 

The reason for asking: I find the pointy nose on the American Harrier rather ugly.   Geeze....we detail-oriented men can be so impossible at times!!!  ;D.   Given the new-tool FA.2 coming down the pike, I'd love to build a couple Coulda Shoulda's.

Wikipedia says the Blue Vixen was "a multimode radar for airborne interception and air-to-surface strike roles over water and land, with look-down and look-up modes."  It goes on to say it had full compatibility with the AIM-9 and AIM-120 AAMs and the Sea Eagle ASM.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2013, 12:08:55 PM »
Carry the Blue Vixen radome over to the Harrier FG.11 version of the AV-8B+, then?  That could definitely make use of existing spares, though it likely would require some equipment rack redesign which, while non-trivial is unlikely to be a major driver of cost.


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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2013, 03:31:15 PM »
How about a French Sea Harrier with Thomson-CSF Agave radar in the nose and a single Exocet missile under one wing?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2013, 04:19:37 PM »

mmmmh ... How about a floatplane version?

(quite Whif, indeed ... ;) )



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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2013, 07:14:08 PM »
How about a French Sea Harrier with Thomson-CSF Agave radar in the nose and a single Exocet missile under one wing?

Flying from PH75?

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: October 02, 2013, 06:26:33 AM »
Non VTOL Harrier






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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: October 02, 2013, 10:30:01 AM »
Ysi - nice ideas!

How about a non-VTOL Harrier with the original engine, a conventional (large!) single nozzle and longer, straighter wings (Su-25?) with more hardpoints as a sort of A-10-ish CAS aircraft?

The single nozzle for the Pegasus would probably have to be about the size of the Viggen's....
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: October 02, 2013, 10:57:52 AM »
Ysi - nice ideas!

How about a non-VTOL Harrier with the original engine, a conventional (large!) single nozzle and longer, straighter wings (Su-25?) with more hardpoints as a sort of A-10-ish CAS aircraft?

The single nozzle for the Pegasus would probably have to be about the size of the Viggen's....
Pegasus, The Heart of the Harrier has a cross-section of one such engine.  It was proposed as a H2-burning engine for the returning Space Shuttle (RB>420, depicted on pg. 291 of the hardback).  I'll have to check it again to verify, but memory says the exhaust was nearly the same diameter as the the front face of the engine (memory was wrong, it's a tad smaller and the exhaust nozzle reduces nicely aft of the engine).  Now, aft of the engine structure you could reduce it or you could add a good mixer for a real low-observable signature.  Given the other numbers, I suspect a TF41 exhaust from an A-7 would work nicely for art.  Given the rather higher thrust of the RB.420, I reckon you could carry as much as an A-7, too, with the right wing (Scaled-up hawk wing?).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 08:43:12 PM by elmayerle »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: October 02, 2013, 04:14:20 PM »
Or possibly go twin tail boom or something akin to the Yak-141 but without the swivelling exhaust:

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2013, 12:19:01 PM »


A Picture from our own Kitnut617 That I love  :-*
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2013, 11:15:41 PM »
Or possibly go twin tail boom or something akin to the Yak-141 but without the swivelling exhaust:




Hmm!  not sure I wanted my Super Harrier to be quite like that ---

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: January 01, 2014, 08:19:14 AM »
Quote
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.


Ok....  US Army gets the AV-8B.    And they keep their Apaches and Cobras.   Is a 4 pylon loadout of guided smart bombs a reasonable presumption presuming skirmishes that involve something similar to The Recent 20 Year Sandbox Conflict?  The helicopters provide the lead spray and rockets, the Harriers a rapidly deployable somewhat heavier bit.   
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: January 01, 2014, 08:41:40 AM »
Well that's an idea.  US Army, using the success USMC capability as justification, pushes for and obtains their own fixed wing expeditionary tactical air power.  As the USMC aircraft have been selected for their suitability for deployment, CAS and interdiction in support of deployed forces the US Army simply copies and expands the USMC model to suit their larger structure.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: January 01, 2014, 09:28:10 AM »
Quote
Personally, I'm waiting for the new Airfix GR.1/GR.3 kits because I want to do a series of models along the lines that the US Army, British Army and Royal Marines all won the 1960s arguments about CAS and ended up with their own Harriers with their own equipment fits.


Ok....  US Army gets the AV-8B.    And they keep their Apaches and Cobras.   Is a 4 pylon loadout of guided smart bombs a reasonable presumption presuming skirmishes that involve something similar to The Recent 20 Year Sandbox Conflict?  The helicopters provide the lead spray and rockets, the Harriers a rapidly deployable somewhat heavier bit.
4 pylon load out of smart bombs or Hellfire racks (either the four-missile racks off the helicopters or the three-missile racks used by the RAF for its Brimstone derivative of Hellfire - alternative fit might be an air-launched version of the anti-ship Hellfire derivative the Swedes use from ground launchers) sounds like a reasonable loadout, though perhaps dispensers with SDB's would be another alternative for some combat environments.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2014, 07:08:30 AM »
Hmmmm.....Kinetic's SHAR might have to also get US Army markings.   
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2014, 09:55:21 AM »
Hmmmm.....Kinetic's SHAR might have to also get US Army markings.
Or like the export version 1st generation strike Harrier proposed to the PLAAF, a SHAR 1 airframe (the only 1st generation airframe in production at the time) with the radar replaced by a LRMTS as on the Harrier GR.3.  Of course, instead of the LRMTS, it might have the ARBS flown in USMC A-4Ms and fitted to the original AV-8B.

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: September 19, 2014, 10:43:11 PM »





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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: September 20, 2014, 12:47:33 AM »
The pic of looking out the back of the C-130, the scenery in the background looks like Arizona, Southern Arizona to be more specific --- Yuma perhaps ?

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2014, 03:18:10 AM »
3rd MAW over Helmland Afghanistan according to this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/01/afghanistan-december-2012/100433/

(Yuma is a good guess though  ;) )

Another pic from the Above:



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Offline dy031101

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Hangar clearance for supporting Harriers?
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2015, 02:20:44 PM »
I once read an article on CVV.  A comparison chart pointed out that the modernised Midway class, while capable of catapulting and recovering F-14s, cannot support them because their hangars do not have the clearance (17.5') required to perform services on the Tomcats (landing gear drop-check and ejection seat removal are invoked as examples; CVV has 24' to accommodate such jobs).

I wonder what would be the hangar clearance required to service Harrier II.  Does anyone know?  Thanks in advance.
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Offline raafif

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: April 06, 2015, 02:09:47 PM »
an early Harrier at Prima Museum - larger intake lip & no small intake doors.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: April 06, 2015, 08:33:42 PM »
I think that is a P.1127...

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: April 06, 2015, 11:11:42 PM »
It is more likely to be one of the nine Kestrels that went to the USA after they were Tri-partied tested. Named XV-6A Kestrel or Kestrel FGA.1 (RAF). 

I've got models of both the P.1127 and the Kestrel and the latter is somewhat bigger than the P.1127 but not as big as a Harrier.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: April 06, 2015, 11:24:31 PM »
It is more likely to be one of the nine Kestrels that went to the USA after they were Tri-partied tested. Named XV-6A Kestrel or Kestrel FGA.1 (RAF). 

I've got models of both the P.1127 and the Kestrel and the latter is somewhat bigger than the P.1127 but not as big as a Harrier.

This Kestrel?

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: April 06, 2015, 11:46:20 PM »
It is more likely to be one of the nine Kestrels that went to the USA after they were Tri-partied tested. Named XV-6A Kestrel or Kestrel FGA.1 (RAF). 

I've got models of both the P.1127 and the Kestrel and the latter is somewhat bigger than the P.1127 but not as big as a Harrier.


This Kestrel?




Looks like it Carl, only mine was done by Heritage Aviation (who took over most of the Aardvark moulds I think) and are still available too correction, not available at the moment.

http://www.kitsforcash.com/hs-kestrel-unavailable-at-present-do-not-order-please-107-p.asp

You'll notice that there's no wing shown in the link, when I got mine the wing that came with it had a trailing edge that was at least 2mm thick, I sent off for a replacement and got one which was much better. I think they must be re-doing the wing mould for it which is why it's not available right now.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 11:59:01 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2016, 08:28:58 PM »
So in the old arcade game Mercs there's this Harrier as an end-of-level boss.

The nose looks to me curiously like an AV-8B nose, it's a bit blunt for an AV-8A/C/GR.1/FRS.1 nose. Which brought me the idea to acquire a GR.3 and an AV-8B. Transplant the nose (or nose and cockpit, or if it's easier, just do a wing swap for the AV-8B) of the AV-8B onto the GR.3, add SUU-23 pods from Hase weapons set, and it's the real-whiffworld version of this. Which leaves you with the GR.3 nose (or entire fuselage) and AV-8B (or its wings) which could be combined into a sort of "GR.5 prototype" done either in Raspberry Ripple or the 80's two greens (this "other" is why I wouldn't choose an AV-8A/GR.1).

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2016, 01:48:50 PM »
How about a twin engine harrier?

If stacked on top of each other like the Lightning each could have two nozzles and one tail pipe though another thought is wing mounted engines as per the Sud Aviation Vautour, YAK25/28.

Actually a Vautour arrangement could lead to a capable strike fighter or even a "Missileer" with a powerful radar, suitable for small carriers.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2016, 04:26:57 AM »
... another thought is wing mounted engines as per the Sud Aviation Vautour, YAK25/28...

The tricky bit would be interconnecting the nozzles for engine-out flight. Might be simpler to mount the engines side-by-side with two, bigger nozzles per side?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2016, 10:05:38 AM »
... another thought is wing mounted engines as per the Sud Aviation Vautour, YAK25/28...

Weeelllll !! my idea was this
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 10:09:16 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2016, 12:51:24 PM »
Doh! and I thought I was being so clever

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2016, 05:32:56 PM »
Great minds think alike  ---- right    ;)

My project came about because of all the multi-Pegasus engine projects that were being thought up, I thought they'd need a FTB to test the concept, hence the two engine setup put on a Canberra. 'Course, that led to something else  -----  ;D

I think I've a thread here somewhere of the build.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2016, 08:45:53 PM »
... another thought is wing mounted engines as per the Sud Aviation Vautour, YAK25/28...

The tricky bit would be interconnecting the nozzles for engine-out flight. Might be simpler to mount the engines side-by-side with two, bigger nozzles per side?
How about cross-shafting between engines so that thrust can be maintained, at least somewhat, in an engine-out condition?  I rather suspect you'd need some electronics to synchronize the drive motors for the nozzles to make sure both engines vector identically.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: August 25, 2016, 03:27:06 AM »
... another thought is wing mounted engines as per the Sud Aviation Vautour, YAK25/28...

The tricky bit would be interconnecting the nozzles for engine-out flight. Might be simpler to mount the engines side-by-side with two, bigger nozzles per side?
How about cross-shafting between engines so that thrust can be maintained, at least somewhat, in an engine-out condition?  I rather suspect you'd need some electronics to synchronize the drive motors for the nozzles to make sure both engines vector identically.

I think Dornier developed a computer specifically for such purposes when they created the Do-31 VTOL transport.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: October 22, 2016, 05:59:59 PM »
Gee,,, missed this one.
Creative concept. :)    Really !
Am impressed by those pictures. 

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: September 05, 2017, 02:22:54 AM »
Interesting photo:

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: September 05, 2017, 02:56:34 AM »
Could look quite interesting if combined with the original Maritime Harrier minimum-change conversion.  I still want to apply that nose to a Harrier T.4N or T.8, with radar, for full-up training without need for another training aircraft.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: April 14, 2018, 01:31:35 AM »
Studies on non vtol Harrier



« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:15:44 AM by ysi_maniac »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: August 21, 2018, 08:37:22 PM »
Found this on FB.

The owner of Lonewulf models has stated: "As I am working on another Sea Harrier project, I am also going to re-release the Sidetrack Harrier conversion as it has not been out for a while."





To best of my knowledge, Blackbird Models is the only distributor of his products:  https://www.blackbirdmodels.co.uk/lone-wulf-models-96-c.asp
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2018, 01:17:47 AM »
And, sadly, they seem to be OOS on so much of his stuff.  But, yeah, I'd go for a couple of this conversion and put one on a Harrier T.10/T.12 as a command and control link.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: August 22, 2018, 01:46:41 AM »
I've emailed Adrian.  Hope to get an update soon.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: August 22, 2018, 08:53:06 AM »
I've got one of those conversion from Adrian, he also sold me some extra parts from the conversion to do this

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2018, 01:15:30 AM »
I've emailed Adrian.  Hope to get an update soon.
Please let him now that I'm interested in more than one, plsu more than one of the new Hunter items you showed on the Hunter thread.  One thought, does anyone make a Fairey Fireflash for use on Hunter and Swit models?

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2018, 01:59:59 AM »
I've emailed Adrian.  Hope to get an update soon.
Please let him now that I'm interested in more than one, plsu more than one of the new Hunter items you showed on the Hunter thread.  One thought, does anyone make a Fairey Fireflash for use on Hunter and Swit models?

Pavla Evan, and I think there's another company that does them too, thinking maybe AlleyCat

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2018, 02:31:51 AM »
Pavla Evan, and I think there's another company that does them too, thinking maybe AlleyCat

The AlleyCat Models site still offers its Supermarine Swift F7 Conversion for £14.   https://www.alleycatmodels.co.uk/supermarine-swift-f7-conversion-6522-p.asp

The Pavla U72-175 set has two resin Fireflash missiles for the Swift F.7 but doesn't show up on the pavlamodels.cz website.
 -- https://www.aviationmegastore.com/supermarine-swift-f7-fireflash-missiles-2pcs-airfix-u72175-pavla-pavu72175-aircraft-weaponry/product/?action=prodinfo&art=144226
 -- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pavla-U72174-1-72-Resin-Supermarine-Swift-F-Mk-7-Conversion-set-Airfix-/332187314730
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2018, 02:47:21 AM »
Found a British seller on Ebay who had just the Fireflash missiles and pylons.  Ordered a couple sets from him; good man, I've bought from him before.  If nothing else, 'twill be a different item to hang under a Hunter.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 02:59:45 AM by elmayerle »

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2018, 01:42:53 PM »
Random idea:  Liechtenstein Harrier
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #148 on: October 07, 2018, 05:28:54 PM »
Interesting photo:



Do you have any more details on this photo Greg?

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #149 on: October 08, 2018, 01:38:35 AM »
I believe it's one of the DB Harriers during development and testing leading to the Sea harrier FRS.1.  There was also one flying with an aerodynamic shape for a radome to be fitted to a standard Harrier for a minimum-change Maritime Harrier.