Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 30846 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 03:17:01 PM »
 :)
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »
It's usually the other way round, but in this case , Lightning follows Thunderbolt (Viggen):



I had a side profile with the landing gear deployed and shots from head-on and the bottom with four twin-launchers for Firestreak AAMs (one launcher right in front of the landing gear and one nearer to the wing tip), but the darn computer ate it!  :icon_twisted:
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2013, 12:19:56 PM »
Wicked!!! :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »
Beautiful!!  And definitely with more room for stores.  One thought, how about making the canard more of a delta from just in front of the inboard elevator/fixed section joint?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
More like this, then?

Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2013, 04:36:43 PM »
They look great, although they'd be a bit tricky to build, since you've got a wing spar passing through the lower engine... ;)

How about this:

1. F.6 airframe with guns in the belly tank

2. Delta wing as shown, but in the original mid-mounted postion. Use the kinked and cambered leading edge and give it LERX at the roots

3. No canards, but have the flick-out "moustache" foreplanes from the Concorde demo. Dassault played with these on a Mirage ("Milan"?) so there's obviously potential there.


BAC "investigated" a delta wing on the Lightning, but they left the original tailplanes in place and then dismissed the configuration because of unfavourable wing downwash interactions over them. Well doh.... how about leaving them off altogether? I might be reading too much into it, but this has always felt to me like a pre-determined attempt to dismiss a delta rather then investigate it, probably in defence of their own wing design.... ::)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:41:49 PM by Weaver »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »
They were looking at not a pure delta but a "tailed delta" configuration.  It worked with the MiG21 and other fighters even up to today's Super-Hornet.  So I don't think they were trying to dismiss a delta plan form but found it didn't work with the tailplanes at the low position.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2014, 12:30:04 AM »
Just thinking, RAAF orders EE Lightning instead of Bloodhound missile following a cost benefit analysis.

An evolved Australian Lightning is developed during the early 60s to replace the original Lightnings and remaining Sabres in the late 60s.  Larger fuselage including Speys in place of Avon, nose and belly guns, more fuel in a larger / longer belly tank, new radar, Sparrow and Sidewinder capability with a Y profile launch rail set up similar to that on the F-8 Crusader.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2014, 11:54:03 AM »
Actually what engine would fit the Lightning without too many mods required that would provide more power and / or lower fuel burn, would the J-79 or the RM-6C development of the Avon.  How would you get more fuel into the aircraft without adversely affecting performance?  A larger dorsal spine, fuselage stretch, conformal tanks?  Could a nose similar in profile to the SR.177 permit the fitment of a larger radar without impacting performance?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 02:32:52 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
I was actually reading up on the Bloodhound when it struck me that the Lightning was a contemporary and probably much better value for money than the guided missile. 

The next step was assuming the conservative RAAF pushed for a manned, point defence, interceptor rather than a guided missile, to defend Australia's major cities and to counter Indonesia's TU 16 Badgers.  The RAAF selected the then in production F2 Lightning going on to re-equip / form a number of active service and reserve squadrons for local air defence and treaty obligations, i.e. Butterworth, Singapore, Malta. Initial aircraft would have been built in the UK but follow on airframes built locally.  Locally produced aircraft were modified / improved with increasing use of US equipment for use on the periphery of the conflict in Vietnam, i.e. air defence or Ubon in Thailand etc.

Considering it has been years since I actually finished a kit I am looking at a fairly easy Wiff using either an incomplete 1/100 Tamiya F6 or a new kit ( the new Airfix options look good).  New kit in 1/72 may be easier and I can pilfer exhausts from a Phantom, Sparrows and Sidewinders from the spares box.  I used to have the Matchbox Lightning and am not sure if it is incomplete in a box somewhere or whether it was binned, could be a good source for the nose guns.  Considering a larger dorsal spine or even a dorsal hump for extra fuel.  A new nose would be harder but maybe graft a suitable on, blending it in to the top line infront of the windscreen and fit either a larger chin inlet or a second one over the remaining bottom half of the original inlet.

Like the sound of the F404 re engine, could be the simplest way forward, maybe based on an updated F2A with AIM-9L and AIM-7F serving into the early 90's.  Would a Blue Fox be a suitable replacement for Airpass, would Blue Vixen have fitted?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 07:02:21 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).


Just picked up the Feb edition of Scale Aviation Modeller International and it has a write up on the new Airfix F2A Lightning 1/72.  It looks good and the various profiles they have reminded me of your FG.2B.  In fact the article made reference to photos of F.2A on http://sg-etuo.de/Squadrons/No19SquadronF2A that show aircraft with the four cannon fit and evidence of all having been fired.

Interesting that the belly guns were in place of the Fire Streaks / Red Tops.  It also had profiles for the Mk53 Saudi and Kuwaiti versions, the double rocket launchers on the outer pylon, as well as the over wing set up look interesting.

Maybe I need an Airfix F.2B or two...

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »









Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 10:19:27 PM »
That is cool, well they are all cool but that Atlantian Lightning is extra cool.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
Looking at this shot it appears that the radome of the Lightning is larger than that of the Mirage F1
http://www.sg-etuo.de/bilder/XN778H_19_0676_EWsb.jpg
 This would mean it is also as large or larger than that of the Gripen, Sea Harrier FRS1, F/A2, Mirage 3, and possibly Mirage 2000.  Interesting, this appears to free up a number of upgrade / update pathways for the type.

Looking at the Mk53 with last production examples delivered in 1969 the Lightning was in production for much longer than I realised. 

Now assuming an Australian Lightning buy of say 30 to 40 F2 in 1962/3 following the loan of a squadrons worth of 18 F1 in 1961 (as an emergency counter to Indonesia's Badgers) local production could have started in 1967/8 of an improved F6A incorporating the nose cannon of the F2A, the wing (with the ordinance options) of the Mk53 and integration of US Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles is manufactured into the early 70s. Followed into production by a combat capable trainer version the T7 and then an updated fighter version the F8 with updated avionics and weapons as well as a pair of GE F404 turbofans in place of the Avons to replace the F2s.  There is a trainer version the T9 and the F6A fleet is rebuilt to a similar standard as the F8 being called the F10. 

The Lightning is an additional capability for the RAAF equipping interceptor squadrons initially defending Darwin and Port Moresby against feared Indonesian aggression but then also Derby and Townsville as well as Singapore and Malaysia.  Due to restrictions (real and perceived) on the use of the new Mirage IIIEO fleet (RR Avon and Ferranti Airpass) it is decided to deploy Lightnings to Thailand and South Vietnam instead and also to expand their role from interceptor only to include the air superiority, tactical strike, close air support and tactical reconnaissance roles for which the Mirage had been procured (as a CAC Sabre and FJ-4B Fury replacement).  The surprising performance of the Lightning in Vietnam, including a number of RAAF pilots becoming aces for no loss to enemy action, even in CAS missions led to the decision to develop and export the improved models into the 1980s. 

The Lightning continues to serve the RAAF into the late 90s initially alongside the Mirage III but then the Mirage F1 when it is planned to be replaced with an air superiority orientated multi-role type with the F-22, F-23 and Eurofighter Typhoon all being contenders.  Further life extensions are planned to carry the fleet through until the arrival of its selected replacement, the fleet has already been upgraded with Blue Vixen radars, AMRAAM and ASRAAM as well as a raft of up to date air to ground ordinance including Popeye AGMs and ALARM .  The Rafale has already been selected as the replacement for the Mirage F-1 with IOC planned for 1998.

 ;D Sorry couldn't help myself