Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 29960 times)

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EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« on: May 04, 2012, 04:26:13 AM »
Folks,

A thread for your ideas and inspiration for that most iconic of British aircraft designs, the EE/BAC Lightning.


Regards,

Greg
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 04:27:03 AM »
To start with, here is a crude rendition I did of a twin seat super Lightning with a J-58 engine:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 05:12:14 AM »
Oh, I do like that RAAF M3 :) :-*
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 07:56:37 AM »
Three engined Lightning profile which I did ages ago:



Because like, Lightnings just need more power, right?  ;)

The idea is that the bottom engine is fed by the bottom half of the nose intake, the radome being inceased in size to block off the upper half. The top two engines are then fed by Starfighterish intakes on the upper fuselage behind the cockpit. The latter is a tandem two-seat job, of course. The wings are deltas and it has a V-tail, two Lightning fins being fitted in their standard positions on the "splayed-out" rear fuselage halves. Armament is two Red Tops (wingtips), two Blue Dolphin (underwing) and two Purple Haze AA rockets, which each consist of four Red Top motors on the back of a small nuclear warhead.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 02:22:57 PM »
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 02:53:56 PM »
 :)
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 04:16:52 AM »
Royal Norwegian Air Force.  Based throughout the Northern half of the country.   Dozens of them. 
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 06:00:45 AM »


Lightning PR7 - Spey / Stentor powered spyplane.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 07:29:23 AM »
I've got this idea for a Super Lightning, where it would have four engines, twin tails and side-by-side seating for the pilot and Radar Operator.  It would look like one of the four-engine pods of an Avro 730 (late model) with wings.  My plan was to use a 1/48 front end and two 1/72 rear ends plus using the 1/48 wings and tail planes.  I bought a 1/48 Lightning but some test fitting show'd that the 1/48 part of the plan was too big, I need something around 1/60 scale.  Armament would have been a quartet of Red Deans under the wings as I would have the u/c set up similar to an F-8 Crusader where they'd fold away into what is the under-belly tank.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 02:59:37 AM »
I've often wondered if the 1/48 Airfix kit I bought for cheap  because it had some defective parts in it should be converted to an English equivalent of the Bomarc or as a ZELL-based unmanned carrier for a separate standoff missile of some kind.    Obviously the thought is in very early gestational stages.   Granted I could hit Airfix up for replacement parts but somehow that just doesn't seem right.... 
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2012, 03:41:37 AM »
I like your thinking... :)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 03:04:01 AM »
Random idea:  Lightning Target Drone (akin to QF-4s)
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Offline upnorth

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 05:02:20 AM »
I always thought the Lightning would look good as a delta wing design.

Giving it a cranked arrow style wing would give it more internal fuel volume, perhaps enough to at least reduce the under fuselage bulge to no more than F.3 proportions.

Approach the nose as Mikoyan had with the MiG-21 and increase the intake circumference to make the aircraft more flexible to larger and better radar systems

I'd also throw an IRST "fishbowl" on top of the nose but that's just because an IRST does for a modern jet what contraprops do for propeller driven machines; take the cool factor up....WAY up!  :-*
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:04:02 AM by upnorth »
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2012, 05:02:52 AM »
Time-expired Lightening airframes converted to something equivalent to Bomarc?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2012, 05:06:57 AM »
I always thought the Lightning would look good as a delta wing design.

Giving it a cranked arrow style wing would give it more internal fuel volume, perhaps enough to at least reduce the under fuselage bulge to no more than F.3 proportions.




As a variation on this suggestion, what about a testbed with a wing similar to the Concorde.  Maybe similar in concept to the MiG-21 testbed for the Tu-144:



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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 08:45:38 PM »
Just a two simple ideas: chase plane for hypersonic, rocket, or winged spaceplanes, and additional small rocket engine in tailbase and scientific equipment in overwings tanks. So, just taking F-104 serving in NASA on British ground.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 01:52:19 AM »
I like that.  :).  Or circumvent American ego and NASA themselves get the Lightning.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 10:07:36 AM »
Single-engined Lightning made from a Plasticart Su-7 and a Revellobox Lightning F.6:







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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 10:19:56 AM »
Great idea with the Lightning-Fitter kit bash.  Looks quite natural with the single exhaust unit. 
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 10:49:13 AM »
That DOES look quite natural indeed!  :) Jolly nice work!
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Moritz

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 07:59:50 PM »
I like that!

Though bashing it with an Su-7 isn't going to give it any better range. ;D
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 08:53:33 PM »
I like that!

Though bashing it with an Su-7 isn't going to give it any better range. ;D

Yes but getting rid of the Lyulka AL-7 might: that thing turned as much fuel into smoke as it did into thrust...... :o
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 02:00:16 AM »
That is awesome!! Had the same Idea with a Mig-21! Plan on knocking it out as soon as I get ahold of a Lightning kit
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 02:46:27 AM »
I like that!

Though bashing it with an Su-7 isn't going to give it any better range. ;D

Yes but getting rid of the Lyulka AL-7 might: that thing turned as much fuel into smoke as it did into thrust...... :o
Perhaps replacing it with a Medway with reheat?  A 1/48 Spey exhaust nozzle would work well as a 1/72 Medway one.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2013, 08:30:06 PM »
The backstory was that both the Medway and Conway were under consideration, but it ended up with an Olympus for political reasons, after the RAF's Avro Arrows were cancelled....
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2013, 01:47:50 AM »
Simple paint job. Re-locate to the Robert Harris "Fatherland" universe and the Lightning is serving with the Luftwaffe as a QRF on the border with the USSR. Even a chance to do one in a "special" scheme to celebrate Hitlers 70th birthday
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »
That single engine bird is outstanding. :)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 10:02:06 AM »
Simple paint job. Re-locate to the Robert Harris "Fatherland" universe and the Lightning is serving with the Luftwaffe as a QRF on the border with the USSR. Even a chance to do one in a "special" scheme to celebrate Hitlers 70th birthday

Maybe as a Messerschmitt with Black Tulip markings?
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2013, 04:49:35 AM »
Random idea:  Red Arrow Lightning
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 08:42:56 AM »
I always thought the Lightning would look good as a delta wing design.

Giving it a cranked arrow style wing would give it more internal fuel volume, perhaps enough to at least reduce the under fuselage bulge to no more than F.3 proportions.


As a variation on this suggestion, what about a testbed with a wing similar to the Concorde.  Maybe similar in concept to the MiG-21 testbed for the Tu-144:


While researching something related to the Lightning, I came across this suggestion. So here's my take on it:



The canards came as a bit of an afterthought. I saw the opening of the 30mm guns on the Lightning F.1 and thought a demonstrator wouldn't have use for them. That's when I remembered the Tu-144 Charger's canards.
When I modified the drawing, I calculated that the Concorde's wings are 31.64m long at the root. The wings on the demonstrator would scale out to a little over 10m long. So about 1/3 of the real Concorde wings. Modelling-wise, I think the wings of a 1/200 Revell snap-fit Concorde would work well on a 1/72 Lightning of choice. For 1/48, you could probably use the wings of a 1/144 Concorde.
Cheers,
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 03:17:01 PM »
 :)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »
It's usually the other way round, but in this case , Lightning follows Thunderbolt (Viggen):



I had a side profile with the landing gear deployed and shots from head-on and the bottom with four twin-launchers for Firestreak AAMs (one launcher right in front of the landing gear and one nearer to the wing tip), but the darn computer ate it!  :icon_twisted:
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2013, 12:19:56 PM »
Wicked!!! :)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »
Beautiful!!  And definitely with more room for stores.  One thought, how about making the canard more of a delta from just in front of the inboard elevator/fixed section joint?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
More like this, then?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2013, 04:36:43 PM »
They look great, although they'd be a bit tricky to build, since you've got a wing spar passing through the lower engine... ;)

How about this:

1. F.6 airframe with guns in the belly tank

2. Delta wing as shown, but in the original mid-mounted postion. Use the kinked and cambered leading edge and give it LERX at the roots

3. No canards, but have the flick-out "moustache" foreplanes from the Concorde demo. Dassault played with these on a Mirage ("Milan"?) so there's obviously potential there.


BAC "investigated" a delta wing on the Lightning, but they left the original tailplanes in place and then dismissed the configuration because of unfavourable wing downwash interactions over them. Well doh.... how about leaving them off altogether? I might be reading too much into it, but this has always felt to me like a pre-determined attempt to dismiss a delta rather then investigate it, probably in defence of their own wing design.... ::)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:41:49 PM by Weaver »
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »
They were looking at not a pure delta but a "tailed delta" configuration.  It worked with the MiG21 and other fighters even up to today's Super-Hornet.  So I don't think they were trying to dismiss a delta plan form but found it didn't work with the tailplanes at the low position.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2014, 12:30:04 AM »
Just thinking, RAAF orders EE Lightning instead of Bloodhound missile following a cost benefit analysis.

An evolved Australian Lightning is developed during the early 60s to replace the original Lightnings and remaining Sabres in the late 60s.  Larger fuselage including Speys in place of Avon, nose and belly guns, more fuel in a larger / longer belly tank, new radar, Sparrow and Sidewinder capability with a Y profile launch rail set up similar to that on the F-8 Crusader.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2014, 11:54:03 AM »
Actually what engine would fit the Lightning without too many mods required that would provide more power and / or lower fuel burn, would the J-79 or the RM-6C development of the Avon.  How would you get more fuel into the aircraft without adversely affecting performance?  A larger dorsal spine, fuselage stretch, conformal tanks?  Could a nose similar in profile to the SR.177 permit the fitment of a larger radar without impacting performance?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 02:32:52 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
I was actually reading up on the Bloodhound when it struck me that the Lightning was a contemporary and probably much better value for money than the guided missile. 

The next step was assuming the conservative RAAF pushed for a manned, point defence, interceptor rather than a guided missile, to defend Australia's major cities and to counter Indonesia's TU 16 Badgers.  The RAAF selected the then in production F2 Lightning going on to re-equip / form a number of active service and reserve squadrons for local air defence and treaty obligations, i.e. Butterworth, Singapore, Malta. Initial aircraft would have been built in the UK but follow on airframes built locally.  Locally produced aircraft were modified / improved with increasing use of US equipment for use on the periphery of the conflict in Vietnam, i.e. air defence or Ubon in Thailand etc.

Considering it has been years since I actually finished a kit I am looking at a fairly easy Wiff using either an incomplete 1/100 Tamiya F6 or a new kit ( the new Airfix options look good).  New kit in 1/72 may be easier and I can pilfer exhausts from a Phantom, Sparrows and Sidewinders from the spares box.  I used to have the Matchbox Lightning and am not sure if it is incomplete in a box somewhere or whether it was binned, could be a good source for the nose guns.  Considering a larger dorsal spine or even a dorsal hump for extra fuel.  A new nose would be harder but maybe graft a suitable on, blending it in to the top line infront of the windscreen and fit either a larger chin inlet or a second one over the remaining bottom half of the original inlet.

Like the sound of the F404 re engine, could be the simplest way forward, maybe based on an updated F2A with AIM-9L and AIM-7F serving into the early 90's.  Would a Blue Fox be a suitable replacement for Airpass, would Blue Vixen have fitted?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 07:02:21 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).


Just picked up the Feb edition of Scale Aviation Modeller International and it has a write up on the new Airfix F2A Lightning 1/72.  It looks good and the various profiles they have reminded me of your FG.2B.  In fact the article made reference to photos of F.2A on http://sg-etuo.de/Squadrons/No19SquadronF2A that show aircraft with the four cannon fit and evidence of all having been fired.

Interesting that the belly guns were in place of the Fire Streaks / Red Tops.  It also had profiles for the Mk53 Saudi and Kuwaiti versions, the double rocket launchers on the outer pylon, as well as the over wing set up look interesting.

Maybe I need an Airfix F.2B or two...

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »









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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 10:19:27 PM »
That is cool, well they are all cool but that Atlantian Lightning is extra cool.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
Looking at this shot it appears that the radome of the Lightning is larger than that of the Mirage F1
http://www.sg-etuo.de/bilder/XN778H_19_0676_EWsb.jpg
 This would mean it is also as large or larger than that of the Gripen, Sea Harrier FRS1, F/A2, Mirage 3, and possibly Mirage 2000.  Interesting, this appears to free up a number of upgrade / update pathways for the type.

Looking at the Mk53 with last production examples delivered in 1969 the Lightning was in production for much longer than I realised. 

Now assuming an Australian Lightning buy of say 30 to 40 F2 in 1962/3 following the loan of a squadrons worth of 18 F1 in 1961 (as an emergency counter to Indonesia's Badgers) local production could have started in 1967/8 of an improved F6A incorporating the nose cannon of the F2A, the wing (with the ordinance options) of the Mk53 and integration of US Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles is manufactured into the early 70s. Followed into production by a combat capable trainer version the T7 and then an updated fighter version the F8 with updated avionics and weapons as well as a pair of GE F404 turbofans in place of the Avons to replace the F2s.  There is a trainer version the T9 and the F6A fleet is rebuilt to a similar standard as the F8 being called the F10. 

The Lightning is an additional capability for the RAAF equipping interceptor squadrons initially defending Darwin and Port Moresby against feared Indonesian aggression but then also Derby and Townsville as well as Singapore and Malaysia.  Due to restrictions (real and perceived) on the use of the new Mirage IIIEO fleet (RR Avon and Ferranti Airpass) it is decided to deploy Lightnings to Thailand and South Vietnam instead and also to expand their role from interceptor only to include the air superiority, tactical strike, close air support and tactical reconnaissance roles for which the Mirage had been procured (as a CAC Sabre and FJ-4B Fury replacement).  The surprising performance of the Lightning in Vietnam, including a number of RAAF pilots becoming aces for no loss to enemy action, even in CAS missions led to the decision to develop and export the improved models into the 1980s. 

The Lightning continues to serve the RAAF into the late 90s initially alongside the Mirage III but then the Mirage F1 when it is planned to be replaced with an air superiority orientated multi-role type with the F-22, F-23 and Eurofighter Typhoon all being contenders.  Further life extensions are planned to carry the fleet through until the arrival of its selected replacement, the fleet has already been upgraded with Blue Vixen radars, AMRAAM and ASRAAM as well as a raft of up to date air to ground ordinance including Popeye AGMs and ALARM .  The Rafale has already been selected as the replacement for the Mirage F-1 with IOC planned for 1998.

 ;D Sorry couldn't help myself

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2014, 01:28:51 AM »
Anyone built a Trumpeter 1/72 Lightning? I've heard the Airfix kits are better / more accurate but are the Trumpeter ones ok?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2014, 07:19:11 AM »
Define "ok"!  ;) It will look like a Lightning once built and no one will mistake it for something other than a Lightning, that's for sure.
Looking at it a bit closer, there are some problems. The biggest one: they messed up the rear fuselage (over-exaggerated the pinch between the engines), resulting in a misshapen tail end with ridiculously small nozzles.
Some smaller, not as immediately obvious bugs: the wings are a bit too far forward and miss some subtleties in the kinks of the leading edge, the belly tank is a bit on the portly side. For some more bugs and how to fix them, see this marvellous in-progress thread on Britmodeller: LINK!

My remaining Trumpeter Lightning will get a new tail end by "Odds and Ordnance" and the wings from a 1/200 snap-fit Concorde. For all other Lightnings builds, I'll probably use the Airfix kit.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2014, 08:07:32 AM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

They also wind-tunnel tested quad Sidewinders on fuselage Y-pylons and found that it was destabilising, needing an even bigger fin extension than that required by Red Top. What they didn't test, as far as I know, was two Sidewinders on the fuselage stations, plus two more on either the overwing pylons or the export underwing ones. I could see that working very nicely, and I have in mind to do a Luftwaffe F.6 with 4 x Sidewinders in this layout some day.

Regarding engines, the J-79 should fit at a very tight squeeze, but the Spey would need so much fuselage re-building that you might as well start from scratch with a new airframe design. The RM-6C from the Draken only managed it's superior afterburner performance because the diameter of the Lightnings' cans is limited by the shape of the fuselage, so you couldn't really use it as a re-fit option. Of course, in whiff world, maybe Rolls-Royce's advanced Rb-106 didn't get cancelled. This was, roughly speaking, an Avon-sized engine with J-79ish technology, so it would be a natural and very powerful upgrade.

There are some interesting advanced Lightning drawings in Chris Gibson's Battle Flight, which have an extended belly pack whose front end overlaps the missle support pack between the fuselage pylons. They have guns in the front, more fuel and a modular weapon pack in the middle, further back than the real-life missile pylons. This pack could have two Red Top pylons, four Sidewinder pylons, three semi-recessed Mk.82 bombs, flip-out 2" RP packs, a semi-recessed Genie, a recce pack or more fuel. IIRC, all of the profiles show it fitted to a two-seat T.55 which was the preferred option for most advanced Lightnings, but I see no reason in principle why the belly pack shouldn't go on the single-seater airframe.

Bear in mind when sending Lightnings to 'Nam that the thing was an absolute pig to work on, since it was essentially a barely-productionised experimental aircraft. Little things like not being able to easily take the wings off to move a damaged aircraft are a right pain in peacetime but can be killer factors when trying to keep a force in operation in an actual war. I can quite believe it getting a good air-to-air score, but I can also see serviceability levels dropping through the floor as running costs go through the roof.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 08:11:55 AM by Weaver »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2014, 09:20:09 AM »
Thanks guys that's some things to think on, I do like the sound of extended belly pack and the options it brings.  I think one of the local shops has a Trumpeter kit but no Airfix ones in sight, hence my question.  So adequately supported Ubon in Thailand could have been a goer but Vietnam would have been more problematic but could have been done if enough aircraft had been forward deployed.  Mirage would have been a better a better option but for the fear of embargoes.

Supportability on deployment would have been one of the drivers for an improved version, along with range and weapons load.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 10:27:33 AM by Volkodav »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2014, 09:26:36 AM »
What about a pair of Turbo-Union RB199s plus new cockpit/canopy plus new radar say, something like the APG68 plus updated missiles for a Lightning for the '90s and beyond?
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2014, 10:28:31 AM »
What about a pair of Turbo-Union RB199s plus new cockpit/canopy plus new radar say, something like the APG68 plus updated missiles for a Lightning for the '90s and beyond?

Not saying no to any tendered solutions at this point  ;)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2014, 05:03:48 PM »
Read the Britmodeller build review and think I'll find an Airfix kit.

Had a thought for a fun Whiff, F.2A four gun nose with F.6 tank guns for a total of 6 ADEN, Mk53 wing with overwing Redtop, double pylon on outer wing for Sparrow / Skyflash (lower missile) and Sidewinder outboard side sub-pylon. Ultimate bomber destroyer, I imagine 6 ADEN would vaporise just about anything.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2014, 09:15:16 PM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2014, 10:49:25 PM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

If that's the case just go for extra Red Top on the wing stations, a graphic I saw indicates the rocket pod load out was up to two on each of the four over and under wing stations so up to 8 Red Top plus 6 ADEN for my Whiff ;D

Now with the Lightning serving into the 90s or 2000s then we have AMRAAM and ASRAAM and no need for a CW illuminator

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2014, 02:29:24 AM »
The idea with RB199s suggested above might fit in with a scenario whereby the RAF needed to keep a dedicated interceptor/fighter a bit longer.  Possibly driven by issues with the Tornado F.3?  By going with RB199s you keep commonality with the Tornado GR.3s.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 02:32:49 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2014, 02:41:50 AM »

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

The problem with using Red Tops instead of Sparrows on the F-4 is that the missile needs to see the target before launch, and it can't do that from within the Sparrow troughs. IIRC correctly, they did have a look at putting two Red Tops on the inboard wing pylons, but decided it wasn't worth the integration effort. I don't know about that though. Sparrow had plenty of "issues" and was certainly vulnerable to ECM, so your F-4 might find itself in a situation where it's thrown all four AIM-7s at a Badger full of electronics and watched them all go loopy, and is wondering what to do next. A couple of IR homing Red Tops with a seven-mile range and bomber-killing warheads might be preferable to a quartet of tiny Sidewinders at that point.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2014, 02:49:20 AM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

Reading Battle Flight, it says that in the end Red Top did what Sparrow did so they didn't bother with all the extra work they would have had to do.  I've always wondered what an F-4 would have done with Red Tops

If that's the case just go for extra Red Top on the wing stations, a graphic I saw indicates the rocket pod load out was up to two on each of the four over and under wing stations so up to 8 Red Top plus 6 ADEN for my Whiff ;D



I'm pretty sure you could get two Red Tops on the overwing pylons, but four might be excessively draggy due to the size of the T-shaped pylon you'd need to get them fin clearance.

Red Tops on the outboard underwing ones would have me worrying about aeroelastic loads. The stores cleared for them (bombs and rocket pods) were short and clean, whereas a missile is long and has fins that generate their own air loads. You might get away with a Sidewinder there, since it's not very heavy even if it does start "nodding", but you'd still want to tunnel test it very carefully....


Quote
Now with the Lightning serving into the 90s or 2000s then we have AMRAAM and ASRAAM and no need for a CW illuminator

True, but you still need to generate target data to feed to the missile's INS before launch and datalink to it after launch, and that still needs a bunch of electronics and computing power on the fighter. Remember, it took two rounds of updates to get the Tornado F.3 full AMRAAM capability. This doesn't mean it's undoable on the Frightening, just that it's a non-trival and potentially expensive exercise. The Sea Harrier F/A.2 managed it and SHAR's arn't exactly roomy either, but then it did have a complete new cutting-edge radar with a lot of the neccessary functions built into it. Just as on the Sea Harrier (but for different reasons) the Lightning might have to give up it's guns to get AMRAAMs.

On the other hand, I could see ASRAAM going very well on the Lightning. The missile is small and clean so you could possibly carry four on fuselage Y-pylons without adding too much side area, and the missile isn't very demanding, so the neccessary electronics might fit in the missile support pack area. ASRAAM is a "long-range short-range" missile with a potential flight range of 10 miles (i.e. further than Red Top) and capable of head-on lock-ups, so even if you can't generate INS data to launch it before lock-on, it still provides a formidable capability in lock-on-before-launch mode.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 03:01:41 AM by Weaver »
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 08:44:09 AM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Nexus1171

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2014, 06:15:23 AM »
I was thinking about something, why not take an XF8U-3 and putting the wings of of the Lightning on it and using the Lightning tails


ChernayaAkula

WHOAH!!!  I love the bottom image...




Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2014, 07:23:53 AM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE


 :) Top stuff, who needs the F-35 !



MOD EDIT to put the texts where they belong.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 05:52:54 PM by ChernayaAkula »

Offline buzzbomb

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2014, 09:04:37 AM »
I keep thinking of a Lightning for the Snoops. Spooks group build as a Recce lightning.
It would certainly be fast enough but the lack of legs sort of kills the idea off.
The overwing ferry tanks area an option.

How would a EE Lightning look with conformal tanks ?


Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2014, 08:59:43 PM »

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE



Hmm! I'm just wonder how exactly that's supposed to work  -- for one thing the engine fronts are only just behind where the intake openings are, and for second, one intake has to snake up to feed the top engine and the other side has to snake downwards to the bottom one.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2014, 09:12:30 PM »
side inlets would mean side mounted engines (the whole point of engines on top of each other is to reduce frontal area, putting intakes on the side nullifies this so you may as well put the engines there too)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2014, 09:17:26 PM »
^ Interesting thoughts!  :)

Here's another Super Lightning!


SOURCE
Now it kinda bugs me that I sold off my Italeri Super Hornet that cheap. Those intakes would've come in handy.

And this one doesn't look half-bad either:

SOURCE


 :) Top stuff, who needs the F-35 !



MOD EDIT to put the texts where they belong.  ;)


I was high and my aim was off :P

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2014, 12:06:37 AM »
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/images/JPGS%5Cee%20Lightning%20F53%5CLightning%20with%20recce%20pack.jpg

Another interesting photo and I see Clave has previously done a Swedish Mk53 with SIX Redtops

Have an Airfix F2A on order and seriously thinking of the extended belly tank with internal guns and the weapons pack moved aft into the middle of the tank.  That could give me Redtops on tank mounted pylons, a pair of Sparrows semi recessed into the tank and a pair of Sidewinders in the original Redtop position leaving the wing clean and I still get six ADEN.

I think I have an old F/A-18 or two I can lift F-404 cans from too.

Actually thinking on it I may grab a Trumpy F6 for the bash rather than waste the Airfix F.2A which can be a simpler Sidewinder fuselage mount wing pylon or wing tip Redtop six gun Whiff.  May need to find / order an Airfix F.6 for the tank guns and then do that up as a missile only RAAFAR point defence interceptor.

How hard would wing tip missiles be to do on a Lightning wing?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 12:40:23 AM by Volkodav »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2014, 12:26:08 AM »
Well this is how the first sketches appeared of what ended up as the Lightning, notice the T-Tails  ---

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2014, 12:28:25 AM »
Now that is cool

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2014, 12:38:46 AM »
There was some influence from Hans Malthopp (Ta.183 fame) with the T-Tails as he was working at RAE for a while, where he was assisting in the RAE Trans-sonic Experimental Aircraft design.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2014, 03:05:44 AM »
Here's another Lightning Weapon's Load Out shot:



speaking of which, what about a more modern ground attack one with LGBs?
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2014, 03:07:08 AM »
And for another idea, what about an Indian one painted up in a similar scheme to this:

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2014, 06:11:22 AM »
Just about any Indian scheme would look good on the Lightning!  :)
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2014, 01:48:37 PM »
How hard would wing tip missiles be to do on a Lightning wing?

Not hard.  It was proposed at various times but apparently it caused unacceptable aerodynamic loads on the wings.   Similar problem with putting Sidewinders on the fuselage sides, apparently an even bigger fin than the F.6's was required..  Apparently the one place which didn't cause problems was beside the belly fuel tanks, which is where it was proposed the Genie be hung.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2014, 03:28:40 PM »
Weaver mentioned earlier that Y rails for winders in place of Firesteak / Redtop caused issues but single missiles were or should have been fine.

Offline uncle les

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2014, 04:28:49 PM »
..there's a lot of good stuff here...   it's got the cogs turning. 8)

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2014, 04:57:43 PM »
I'd go with double rails on the over wing position.   Perhaps with a pair of drop tanks, like a Phantom or a Tornado F3.

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2014, 05:39:46 PM »
And for another idea, what about an Indian one painted up in a similar scheme to this:




OH HELL YES!!!!!!  :P :P :P
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 06:25:30 PM »
Surprised India never bought the Lightning as they seemed to be pretty anglophile in their purchasing habits around that period.  Singapore would have been another logical operator considering how long the RAF operated the type there and its point defence nature.  Like I said I would like to have seen it in RAAF service as an alternative to the Bloodhound and to re-equip the RAAF flying reserve (had it not been disbanded in the 50s).  You could even have seen ex-RAAF machines going to Indonesia and Malaysia in the 70s and new builds to NZ in the 60s (if not CAC Furies in the 60s  ;))

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 08:48:23 PM »
speaking of which, what about a more modern ground attack one with LGBs?

Should be possible to put a 500lb or 1000lb LGB on each underwing pylon. Should also be possible to put a TIALD pod on one of the Red Top pylons. The difficulty with all such high-tech schemes would be the aircraft avionics. Lightnings as they came didn't have a databus or even a CRT display in the cockpit. Of course you can put all those things in (pretty silly not to if you're putting a modern radar in it) but that's loads more money.

Here's a thought: what about JDAMs? They only need the target GPS coordinates and for a fixed target, and those can be pre-programmed on the ground before take-off. Obviously it's better if they can be updated in flight, but it's not essential. The Lightning them acts as a "dumb", but very high performance, bomber, using it's speed to dash to the JDAM release point. One option might be to release them at very high speed and altitude so that they glide a long way, another other might be to go for a low and fast approach and then toss them forwards in a high-speed climb.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2014, 09:05:06 PM »
With a RB199 re-engining or as new build option you could possibly fit the Jaguars nav attack system and other avionics in the front section of the belly tank without loss of range, or even possibly with an increase in range.  Update with Sea Vixen and TIALD and you have a very effective 91 Gulf War bomber.

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2014, 09:18:28 PM »
The nice thing about Sea Vixen is that, in order to fit it into the Sea Harrier, it was deliberately made distributable using a databus, so that the whole weight of the thing didn't have to go in the nose. Many of the radar black boxes were actually in the rear fuselage. That feature might ease integration onto the Lightning, since the latter's radar has to live in a very tight pod in the centre of the intake. Having said that, Lightnings didn't have much space to spare of any sort anywhere, but if you were getting rid of Red Top, the missile support pack would become available without losing the pylons, since any modern weapons you put on them would be much less "needy".

Actually, kind of solved my own problem there: put modern electronic systems in the missile pack area, stick a TIALD on one side and a self-defence AIM-9L on the other, OR, in a slightly earlier timeframe, it should be perfectly possible to "pod" the Jaguar's LRMTS and put that on one of the fuselage pylons for the CAS role.

Here's another possibility: missile pack avionics upgrade with pylons for two Mavericks... >:D They're about 30% heavier than a Red Top, but it should still be doable, and they can definately stand being carried on a side rail because there's a triple launcher or them that carries two just like that. You'd need a TV screen in the cockpit, but if you're updating the radar to a modern one with a CRT display anyway.... 

Just remembered: Switzerland integrated Maverick on the Hunter, so if that's possible, it should definately be on for the Lightning.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:44:20 PM by Weaver »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2014, 10:42:00 PM »
Mmm... liking this line if thought, Maverick on the fuselage rails, winders over wing or on wing pylons and we are cruising

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2014, 01:03:34 AM »
Actually, just realised something: the RAF wanted to carry Genie on the fuselage pylons, and that weighed 822lb, whereas the heaviest Maverick weighs in at 670lb, and is smaller in every dimension, so it's definately a goer.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2014, 01:33:00 AM »
Reading some of Chris Gibson's books about Lightnings and Genies, there wasn't a possibility to mount them on the existing pylons because they were too heavy and really upset the cg.  It was then proposed to mount the Genies further back off the belly tank.

Just recently someone posted some pics of a mock-up installation of some type of missile in that position, I thought it was in this thread but it doen't look like it now I've just gone all through it.  Now where did I see that picture ---  ???
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:36:52 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2014, 04:14:22 AM »
The nice thing about Sea Vixen is that, in order to fit it into the Sea Harrier,


Errr…do you mean Blue Vixen?  Fitting something like this:



into a Sea Harrier will be a lot easier than one of these…



 ;)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 04:20:29 AM »
Singapore would have been another logical operator considering how long the RAF operated the type there and its point defence nature. 


Actually, a fast point defence interceptor such as the Lightning makes perfect sense for a small island/city state like Singapore.  A EE Lightning in this sort of scheme:



Would look great!  Might look a little like this:



Another operator might have been Malaysia.
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 04:37:57 AM »
BTW, Richard has done several EE Lightning profiles here
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2014, 04:45:10 AM »
I also like the idea of a supersonic air race league using aircraft such as the Lightning:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2014, 04:47:33 AM »
Another cool idea:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2014, 04:51:41 AM »
And some more:



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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2014, 05:26:33 AM »
Reading some of Chris Gibson's books about Lightnings and Genies, there wasn't a possibility to mount them on the existing pylons because they were too heavy and really upset the cg.  It was then proposed to mount the Genies further back off the belly tank.

Just recently someone posted some pics of a mock-up installation of some type of missile in that position, I thought it was in this thread but it doen't look like it now I've just gone all through it.  Now where did I see that picture ---  ???

That's not what it says in Battle Flight. It says the RAF studied Genie on the fuselage pylon and while there were some issues, it was the preferred solution, in fact the the ideal solution was to mount the missile further forward and higher up (doesn't say why). There's also a diagram showing all the studied Genie locations and the fuselage one is the favoured one again.
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2014, 11:29:52 PM »
You're right Harold, went and had a re-read.  But I could have sworn that was what I had read somewhere so spent some time looking around.

Well -- erm! I had the wrong missile  :-[  , it was a Bullpup installation I was really thinking of which is a missile twice as heavy.  (on the 'What-If forum of all places to find it   :-X )
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:41:30 PM by kitnut617 »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2014, 09:30:04 AM »
Interesting and interestinger.....

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2014, 11:08:06 AM »
You're right Harold, went and had a re-read.  But I could have sworn that was what I had read somewhere so spent some time looking around.

Well -- erm! I had the wrong missile  :-[  , it was a Bullpup installation I was really thinking off which is a missile twice as heavy.  (on the 'What-If forum of all places to find it   :-X )

I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.

You'll also note your picture is of the early prototype overwing drop tanks with fins.  The fins were found to be unnecessary, with tank separation working without them, so their added drag was found unnecessary.

I note that aircraft doesn't have any air-to-air missiles.  I suspect the black boxes for the Bullpup guidance replaced them.  There simply wasn't much room in the Lightning airframe for extra systems without sacrificing something.


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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2014, 05:54:36 PM »
On going miniaturisation of electronics would help for the 1970s hypothetical versions.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM »
I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.

I was sure I'd seen a pic too Brian ---

You'll also note your picture is of the early prototype overwing drop tanks with fins.  The fins were found to be unnecessary, with tank separation working without them, so their added drag was found unnecessary.

Well, I do know that Battle Flight has a number of profile drawings of the over-wing tank with these fins on (having just re-read the chapter), mostly they're on a two-seater though.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2014, 11:11:05 PM »
I think I need that book

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2014, 12:13:13 PM »
Re-winging the Lightning with F-4 wings:

Lighting and Phantom parts have the same scale. Only the F-4-stabs-turned-canards are smaller than their real-life counterparts.




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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2014, 01:48:09 PM »
they look great especially the 1st 1, the drooping wingtips really suit it

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2014, 05:27:00 AM »
I like the canard version.
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: April 01, 2015, 08:30:01 PM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2015, 08:51:54 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2015, 09:12:53 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.
Take the F.6 fin all the way out to a point?  You might have to start folding the fin to get it into the HAS.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2015, 11:07:35 AM »
Examining my sons 1/100 die cast BAC Lightning another possible armament option dawned on me when I looked at the amount of space forward of the main undercarriage if the fuselage missile rails were deleted.  Imagine the twin rail inner pylon as used on the F-4 Phantom being installed in this area, it would double the number of missiles, permit the alternate cannon armament to be installed in the lower fuselage, while leaving the above wing and outer wing hard points for other ordinance.  Can anyone see a reason why this would not work?

I wonder how big the fin would need to be?  When they replaced the Firestreak missiles with Red Tops in the F.3 version, they had to increase the size of the fin quite a bit.  When they introduced the F.6 with it's bigger belly tank, they had to increase the fin again.  I can imagine what would be needed if you added more fin area to the front of the fuselage, with twin missiles.
Take the F.6 fin all the way out to a point?  You might have to start folding the fin to get it into the HAS.

Both possible.  I'd expect the British to go with something like a folding fin rather than something sensible like a twin fin.

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2015, 03:14:35 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2015, 06:18:17 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2015, 09:33:56 PM »
Would the pylons themselves help address the problem?  Unlike the Firestreak and Red Top pylons these would be vertical and could be designed to have an aerodynamic effect.

The other thing that comes to mind is instead of two Firestreaks or Red Tops on each pylon they could each hold one large British missile outboard and a Sidewinder inboard, my inspiration for this was a photo of an F-15 with an AMRAAM outboard and Sidewinder inboard in such an arrangement.  My original thought was actually for paired Sidewinders or single Firestreaks/Red Tops on each.

Considering the weapons pack contained equipment for the missiles would wing mounted pylons suffice?  Although I must admit I always thought it strange that the Lightning needed a weapons pack full of equipment for its missiles while the Javelin and Sea Vixen seemed to be able to simply hang the missiles off their wings, I suppose this was due to the Lightning fuselage being so restricted for space compared to the big two seaters.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2015, 10:20:56 AM »
As far as I can tell, the idea of the "weapons pack" was more to allow rapid reloading of the missiles, rather like the Hunter's gun pack system did with it's guns.  It allowed the swapping over of two missiles, their coolant bottles and the electronics just went with them.

As for the problem of the fin, I think they found that either they had to lengthen the nose or provide a bigger fin to ensure sufficient control of the aircraft with the larger finned Red Tops up front.   They opted for the easier, initial taller fin and when that didn't work out, went for a taller, broader fin on the F.6.

So, you can either go for a longer nosed Lightning or one with a broader, taller fin.  I wonder what that would have done to the drag?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2015, 06:24:08 AM »
What if the RAF had taken up the idea of the Lightning as a dedicated recon platform:




As far as I am aware, only the Saudi Air Force took up the option of purchasing the reconnaissance system and that was only in very limited numbers.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 06:35:18 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2015, 09:50:16 AM »
Lightning RF.7 in RAF usage?

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2015, 01:28:23 PM »
The RAF had them too, the Lightning PR9, shown here in 4 (AC) Sqdn. markings.  ;)

Converted from the Airfix F2A with the addition of a camera pod from a Hasegawa RF-4, and drop tanks from a Heller F-104G and a couple of  'winders for self defence from the same source.



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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2015, 01:48:13 PM »
Nice, really nice.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning

Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)

how did i miss that!, looks very german like that

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2015, 01:03:39 AM »
twin fin would be tricky on something as skinny as the lightning


Have a look at Reply #67, one of the original designs had a twin fin (and T-Tail too)


how did i miss that!, looks very german like that


Well it's not surprising -- After the war the designer of the Ta.183, Hans Multhopp, worked at RAE (IIRC) where he helped with the design of the RAE supersonic research aircraft which also had Multhopp's signature design of a T-Tail.

http://www.unicraft.biz/on/raetra/rae.jpg

 Multhopp eventually ended up at Martin where he was instrumental in the design of the XB-51. As we know, Martin built the competitor to the XB-51, the Canberra.  It's my view that W.E.W Petter (the Canberra/Lightning designer) and Multhopp got to know each other very well  -----
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 01:15:40 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2015, 06:32:01 AM »
Random idea: normal RAF lightnings with Short SB.5 wing:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2015, 03:49:15 PM »
I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.




I note that aircraft doesn't have any air-to-air missiles.  I suspect the black boxes for the Bullpup guidance replaced them.  There simply wasn't much room in the Lightning airframe for extra systems without sacrificing something.


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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2015, 03:53:05 PM »
Random idea:  Lightning Target Drone (akin to QF-4s)


Not a target drone but there was a proposed target tug:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2015, 03:57:49 PM »
I keep thinking of a Lightning for the Snoops. Spooks group build as a Recce lightning.
It would certainly be fast enough but the lack of legs sort of kills the idea off.



Real world proposals/developments:



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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2015, 04:00:33 PM »
Twin tandem seat P-8 derivative:


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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2015, 04:01:34 PM »
Some Naval Lightning info:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2015, 04:02:49 PM »
Some more Ground Attack info:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2015, 05:03:32 PM »
Feeling the need for a road trip to visit a certain personal library

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
Greg: From which of the two books did you get the images from?
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2015, 09:21:42 PM »
Freightdog do a 1/72nd scale conversion for the ground-attack Lightning, which also includes a pair of N1 bombs:

http://www.freightdogmodels.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=27_29&products_id=1000&osCsid=b93ae58e6b2746e71cfb6da622fd1b0f

I've got one of these sets, but I intend to use it with some Odd'n'Ordnance AS.30s originally intended for Buccaneers.

Edited to include the scale - cheers to The Big Gimper
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 11:29:18 PM by Weaver »
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2015, 09:36:30 PM »
Freightdog do a conversion for the ground-attack Lightning, which also includes a pair of N1 bombs:

http://www.freightdogmodels.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=27_29&products_id=1000&osCsid=b93ae58e6b2746e71cfb6da622fd1b0f

I've got one of these sets, but I intend to use it with some Odd'n'Ordnance AS.30s originally intended for Buccaneers.


Before you get excited Greg, they are not 1/48. They are 1/72.

Maybe Colin will create some in 1/48 to support the new Airfix Lightning.
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2015, 11:28:25 PM »
Yeah, sorry: I tend to forget that other people build things in wierd scales.... ;)
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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: September 30, 2015, 05:04:56 AM »
There's some cooooool stuff in here! I recently got a Matchbox T.55 to bash into a T.5 using an old-tool, never finished Airfix F.2 and was going to make a plain-jane RAAF machine from the short-belly single-seater. Now I have some ideas and schemes to play with.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: September 30, 2015, 03:38:02 PM »
Greg: From which of the two books did you get the images from?

Both
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2015, 03:38:30 PM »
Yeah, sorry: I tend to forget that other people build things in wierd scales.... ;)

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: September 30, 2015, 03:41:25 PM »
Feeling the need for a road trip to visit a certain personal library

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: September 30, 2015, 04:09:32 PM »
Feeling the need for a road trip to visit a certain personal library



I'll make sure I bring the psycho kitten to run interference then.

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2015, 08:06:56 PM »
Yeah, sorry: I tend to forget that other people build things in wierd scales.... ;)

Who you calling weird...weirdo!!!

Deviants and heretics from the One True Scale, of course....  ;)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2015, 10:50:00 PM »
Yeah, sorry: I tend to forget that other people build things in wierd scales.... ;)

Who you calling weird...weirdo!!!

Deviants and heretics from the One True Scale, of course....  ;)

Hallelujah Brother!!!  :o
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2015, 06:10:49 AM »
Something I found online this week:

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2015, 07:51:14 AM »
Nice Find. Vought Lightsader.
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2017, 06:18:50 AM »
What a machine!!!!
 :smiley:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2018, 06:00:41 AM »
From Colin Strachan, owner of Freightdog Models.

A couple of years ago I produced a ‘swing wing’ conversion for the Airfix Lightning F.6 kit in 1/72 scale, a paper project to enhance the original design. This wonderful build took my resin wings and mated them to the Sword Lightning T.5 kit, which was also significantly scratch converted into a Phase III Lighting, itself based on a Naval VG proposal. I can’t remember the modellers name, but I just came across this picture and wanted to share it. The VG wing sets is still available, although designed for the Airfix kit, I’ve seen it fitted to other Lightning kits including Matchbox and Sword ones, with the application of a little modelling skill, as illustrated here!

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Offline Kelmola

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2018, 03:18:56 AM »
Am I the only one who thinks that it looks a bit odd that the outer wing panels in the VG Lightning would have been exactly the same shape as the regular ones? Or was this just a case of paper exercise and if anything would have ever become of it, the wing planform would have been redesigned?

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2018, 04:05:02 AM »
I cannot speak to the final design but these drawings appears to be authentic and as you noted kept the original shape of the fixed wing version.





Source: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234991381-ee-sea-lightning-project-help/
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Offline Kelmola

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2018, 07:31:11 AM »
Yes, I'm aware of and have seen the official BAC drawings and brochures around the net. What I meant that if someone had digged further into it, were there any "serious" plans to further redesign the wing if anyone caught the bait, or would this have been it.

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: January 19, 2018, 02:44:34 AM »
Yes, I'm aware of and have seen the official BAC drawings and brochures around the net. What I meant that if someone had digged further into it, were there any "serious" plans to further redesign the wing if anyone caught the bait, or would this have been it.


I would have to refer to my 'bibles' to confirm but unfortunately they are in storage for another couple of months whilst the new house is built:

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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: September 15, 2018, 08:57:26 AM »
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Offline Geoff

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2018, 08:42:02 AM »
Just a thought - but Egyptian crews trained on Saudi aircraft after the '73 war. But never attained operational readiness. I just think an F-2A or F-6 would look good in the Nile scheme, or delta scheme.
 

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: September 27, 2018, 11:19:59 AM »
 :smiley:
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