Author Topic: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks  (Read 68727 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2012, 02:50:13 PM »
You would probably be best placed to derive it from the German 10.5cm Flak 38-39:

Not sure if anyone models it.

Many decades ago, Nitto did.  IIRC Fujimi took up the moulds and re-released it more recently.  The 10.5cm Flak 38-39 wasn't a terribly successful design, falling as it were between the two stools of the 8.8cm and the 12.8cm.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 02:56:27 PM »
Weren't the Germans also working on a 100mm low-recoil (recoilless?) gun during WWII?

They were working on many weird and wonderful weapons.  They fielded a 105mm Rcl but the expense of using it (it used twice as much propellant as a normal gun) killed it.   They also fielded in very small numbers a 8cm PAW 800 gun which used the high-low pressure principle.  They were experimenting with a 10.0cm PAW 1000 weapon but never fielded it.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 02:59:02 PM »
For an actual tank gun, the 'Dicker Max' or 10.5cm K18 auf Panzer Selbstfahrlafette IVa was armed with the 105mm K18 gun.  I believe Trumpeter makes a kit of the type in 35th scale.

Regards,

John

I forgot about that one.  Yes there are kits available from at least DML and Trumpeter in 1/35.

How good was the K18 in the antitank role?

Potentially very good but it was a cumbersome weapon and coming from the Artillery branch, rather than the armoured one a bit behind the eight-ball, as it were.  Their were only 2 Dickermax built and they proved a bit of a failure - more because of the chassis chosen than the gun necessarily.  One was captured by the Russians and put on display in Moscow where several pictures that have been published of it come from.

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 03:36:31 AM »
For an actual tank gun, the 'Dicker Max' or 10.5cm K18 auf Panzer Selbstfahrlafette IVa was armed with the 105mm K18 gun.  I believe Trumpeter makes a kit of the type in 35th scale.

Regards,

John

Thanks John. I have the DML version in the stash. Hopefully a metal barrel is available somewhere. :D
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 03:45:31 AM »

Thanks John. I have the DML version in the stash. Hopefully a metal barrel is available somewhere. :D


RB Model do one in 1/35:




You can usually find them for sale on eBay.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 05:13:13 AM »

Thanks John. I have the DML version in the stash. Hopefully a metal barrel is available somewhere. :D


RB Model do one in 1/35:




You can usually find them for sale on eBay.

Thanks chief. :) That barrel would look good on a Leo I circa 1948. >:D
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 10:09:51 AM »
Rickshaw: Thanks for the aide-mémoire -- 10.0cm PAW 1000 was the one I was thinking of.

You know, somewhere at some point in time, I swear I remember reading a proposal from Giat (or Nexter) that involved equipping the Leo 1 with various turrets from the AMX 30 family... but the reason for swapping the turret from the gun tank went over my head a bit ...

That's been proposed a couple of times. One non-Giat proposal was Santa Bárbara Sistemas' Proyecto LEOX. A hull was procured from Krauss-Maffei (and is still in Seville, apparently) but I'm not sure if the turret swap was ever completed. The point of the project was to eliminate drivetrain problems with the AMX-30E while avoiding British export bans on the Leopard 1A3's RO L7A3 main guns.

IIRC, Proyecto LEOX was meant as an fill-in after the collapse of the 1985 domestic Lince tank project (also by Krauss-Maffei and Santa Bárbara). There were a host of alternative proposals all involving new transmissions (or engines) for the AMX-30E. Eventually, Spain chose the AMX-30EM1 / AMX-30EM2 upgrades before moving on to Leopard 2E and Centauro replacements.
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaŝ, wynna gewitaŝ, wera geswicaŝ"

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 11:19:07 AM »

.... One non-Giat proposal was Santa Bárbara Sistemas' Proyecto LEOX. A hull was procured from Krauss-Maffei (and is still in Seville, apparently) but I'm not sure if the turret swap was ever completed. The point of the project was to eliminate drivetrain problems with the AMX-30E while avoiding British export bans on the Leopard 1A3's RO L7A3 main guns.

IIRC, Proyecto LEOX was meant as an fill-in after the collapse of the 1985 domestic Lince tank project (also by Krauss-Maffei and Santa Bárbara). There were a host of alternative proposals all involving new transmissions (or engines) for the AMX-30E. Eventually, Spain chose the AMX-30EM1 / AMX-30EM2 upgrades before moving on to Leopard 2E and Centauro replacements.

AH HA! THAT was the reason. Thank you for jarring my memory about the embargo of the L7. I seem to recall (possibly from the same source) that, at the time, the AMX 30 was felt to have either a superior or at least more familiar fire control system than the Leo 1.

On a vaguely related note, while the power train problems of the AMX30 are pretty well known, I read an account from a Spanish tanker who said he felt that the gun of the older M47 was superior to the French 105! Take that for what it's worth because I have no way to verify it. Regardless, I would still like to build a LEOX in 1/35 because it sounds like a cool idea for a Whif model.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 07:44:30 PM »
There were also the proposed "Lion" - a project from Oto-Melara (who licensed built the Leopard 1 for the Italian Army) - a tropicalised, specialist desert version of the Leopard.  It had a superficially different hull and turret - much squarer than the cast turret Leopard 1.  However, no one was willing to buy it and they produced instead the OF40, which was purchased by the UAE (36 MBTs + 2 ARVs).  It too was essentially an upgraded, tropicalised Leopard 1.  Again, with a much squarer hull and turret.




Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 08:23:45 AM »
... I read an account from a Spanish tanker who said he felt that the gun of the older M47 was superior to the French 105! ...

The preference probably sprang from the M47's main gun being stabilized (at least for elevation). AFAIK, the AMX-30E's CN-105-F1 wasn't. So, likely that tanker was willing to trade calibre for more accuracy on the move.
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaŝ, wynna gewitaŝ, wera geswicaŝ"

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 08:26:45 AM »
... a tropicalised, specialist desert version of the Leopard...

Could have used some of those in Kandahar in 2006  ;)
"... blac to gebeddan; bleda gedreosaŝ, wynna gewitaŝ, wera geswicaŝ"

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 10:33:25 PM »
I've always thought thought the OF 40 had a sexier looking turret than the Leo 1A3-A4 series. Looks like it would be a cool variant of the Leo 1 for one of my "Imagi-Nations" that primarily uses modern German equipment.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2012, 01:27:35 AM »
Leopard 2 Tank Hunter what-if built by Paul Hennessy and posted on the forum at Missing-Lynx

Click on image or html to view topic at Missing-Lynx forums.


(Image source: Paul Hennessy - photobucket.com)

Of course I sent an invitation to Paul right after I found his topic :)
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2012, 02:20:53 AM »
 :)
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2012, 02:22:57 AM »
I made an "urban" Leo a few years ago:



inspired by BuzzBomb's urban M1:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,26318.0.html


Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 02:35:55 AM »
I made an "urban" Leo a few years ago:



inspired by BuzzBomb's urban M1: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,26318.0.html


Your 'Urban Leo looks like WALL-E's bigger brother with that little elevated sensor mast sticking up at an angle like that. 

Click on thumbnail to view larger image. 


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Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 07:54:11 AM »
That "Jagd-Leo" is too cool! Paul mentioned that the casement tanks were a partial inspiration and that was the first thing I thought of when I saw it.

Frank, do you have more photos of your urban combat Leo? While there have been a few nice MBTs converted to this type of vehicle, yours is the best execution of the idea I've seen so far.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 12:02:29 PM »
Frank, do you have more photos of your urban combat Leo? While there have been a few nice MBTs converted to this type of vehicle, yours is the best execution of the idea I've seen so far.


Thanks Jacques! The build thread is over on the What-if board: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,26900.0
I think Brian's (Buzzbomb's) is the best I've seen.

Offline Jacques Deguerre

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »
Thanks for the link, Frank! Now I must confess to being in the running for a "Derp Of The Month" award since I realized I've looked at your build thread over on WhIf a number of times. :-[

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2012, 10:05:14 PM »
An update on Paul Hennessy's Leopard 2 Tank Hunter project can be seen at this link: A paper-panzer update on the Missing-Lynx forums. 



"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2012, 02:39:33 AM »
Random Idea:  Leo1 with ERA to keep it relevant.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline raafif

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2012, 05:33:35 AM »
when Teledyne was experimenting with the MGS-retro-equip, a Leo-1 marketing-model (1/35th scale) had applique armour added to the front top areas.  I don't see why it wouldn't have been extended over the whole tank if that project had gone ahead.

photo of that promo model sent to me by the guy who built all of these concept models for Teledyne.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2012, 02:55:44 PM »
Oh, now that does look nice.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2012, 03:00:44 PM »
Another random idea:  Leo1s converted into something akin to the BTR-T:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 Tanks
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2012, 09:01:41 PM »
^ Maybe a Leo 1 with the turret (or a development thereof) of a Begleitpanzer (LINK)?
Cheers,
Moritz

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