Author Topic: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 23361 times)

Offline The Big Gimper

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F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« on: December 21, 2011, 10:45:04 AM »
F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s:

Folks:

I am thinking a whiffing a F-104 with 2-3 AIM-9s per wing tip. I would like to build a Multiple Ejector Rack (MER) but with launch rails. Any thoughts on what an official Missile MER would have looked like? One AIM-9 on top, middle and bottom like a T fallen on its side.

Carl
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 04:07:58 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 09:05:32 PM »
I guess it'd be similar to the twin AIM-9 setup I've seen on F-14s but with another rail in place of the pylon attachment point.  There's a sort of precedent to the T format with F-4s & Tonkas having AAMs over other ordnance in that config (albeit vertical).  About the only potential issue would be seperation, but the Jag had overwing pylons so it mustn't be that much of an issue.

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John
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Offline Jeremak

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Re: F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 05:04:32 AM »
Also you can use dual missle rails from MiG-23 ( http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23m/mig23m-8.jpg ), and put right on the left wing, and left on the right wing, so the "side" missles from photo would be on the "lower side" of the wing.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 04:05:07 AM »
If you have enough ground clearance and space available on your wing station, you might be able to get away with an "H" pattern with a pair of missiles mounted on either side of the pylon and a fifth mounted directly to the pylon on the bottom.  Pretty much what you see on the F-15 and F-4 but with a dash of the F-8 Crusader thrown into the mix (remember the Zuni air to ground rockets on the Sidewinder mounts). 
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 08:00:40 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll peruse the stash over the holidays, do some dry-its to see what fits/looks the part.

Carl
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 04:09:13 AM »
Folks,  I have renamed this thread "F-104 Ideas and Inspiration" so as to allow for broader discussions.

To start with - Delta F-104 anyone:



Regards,

Greg

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 06:39:33 AM »
How about a "delta F-104" with a delta T-tail?  Alternatively, one that looks like a cross beween a F-104 and a scaled-up HA-300?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »
Missile Madness Missile-with-a-man-in-it



The missiles are the same scale as the Starfighter.

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
6x AIM-120 on the inboard wing pylons

I guess the triple launchers could be a set-up similar to the LAU-115 twin launcher seen on Hornets, but with a spacer and third pylon straight down. Weight shouldn't be a problem.
Since the wingtips are strong enough to hold the big tanks, I reckon you could also put another AIM-120 or two (over/under) there. In that case, though, you'd better scramble your tanker before your QRA bird.

If you use an angled pylon adapter canted outwards, you could probably use AIM-120s on the belly launchers as well. If you use the AIM-9 launchers for AIM-120s, you'd run into a space problem with the longer AIM-120. The angled pylon would allow them to sit next to the front landing gear doors.

Oh, and a single-piece windscreen for this one.  ;) 'cause it's cool.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 11:50:25 AM »
Italian I presume...the umpteenth upgrade?  I wonder how you would go adding in some sort of conformal fuel tank system on the upper surfaces?  Maybe also give it a more modern and fuel efficient engine.

Either way, simply outstanding! :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 12:46:38 PM »
Italian I presume...the umpteenth upgrade?  I wonder how you would go adding in some sort of conformal fuel tank system on the upper surfaces?  Maybe also give it a more modern and fuel efficient engine.

Either way, simply outstanding! :)
Re-engined with either a PW1120 or a F414 and fitted with conformal fuel tanks filling out the interesection between the intakes and the fuselage?

That would be a suitable companion for the overloaded Super Tiger that Grumman played with.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 12:56:39 PM »
Could certainly be Italian. But when I pictured the modernised Starfighter before my mind's eye, it carried Finnish markings. Don't ask me why, but it did. Single-piece windscreen, AMRAAMs and AIM-9X, LERXes, new engine, adorned in Finnish markings and flying over a snowy landscape at sunset.  ???
Maybe the Italians pushed the modernisation and the Finns bought some refurb'ed ex-Luftwaffe Starfighters? Dunno, maybe the Finns were serious about the "peace dividend" after the Iron Curtain came down, vowing to buy surplus only. Maybe the peace dividend also caused the Italians to abandon the Eurofighter and rather look at another Starfighter upgrade? Whipping history into shape to make the whifs appear plausible.  >:(

Regarding the conformal fuel tanks, maybe something along the lines of the F-104 CCV's ballast tanks? I don't know how much volume these actually had, but they could be a start. Maybe widened and lengthened a little?



And LERXes?
Or canards? Not necessarily a second tail as per the CCV, but maybe some fixed canards à la Kfir?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 01:13:21 PM by ChernayaAkula »
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Moritz

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 01:00:54 PM »
ISTR that Lockheed schemed some Starfighter derivatives with canards.  I'm not sure where to find the info, though.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
Missile Madness Missile-with-a-man-in-it



The missiles are the same scale as the Starfighter.

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
6x AIM-120 on the inboard wing pylons

I guess the triple launchers could be a set-up similar to the LAU-115 twin launcher seen on Hornets, but with a spacer and third pylon straight down. Weight shouldn't be a problem.
Since the wingtips are strong enough to hold the big tanks, I reckon you could also put another AIM-120 or two (over/under) there. In that case, though, you'd better scramble your tanker before your QRA bird.

If you use an angled pylon adapter canted outwards, you could probably use AIM-120s on the belly launchers as well. If you use the AIM-9 launchers for AIM-120s, you'd run into a space problem with the longer AIM-120. The angled pylon would allow them to sit next to the front landing gear doors.

Oh, and a single-piece windscreen for this one.  ;) 'cause it's cool.


Tres cool.

My F-104L WHIF was to have a pure AIM-9 load out. Could I ask you to create a modified version which has

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
Fuel tanks on the inboard wing pylons
2 or 3  AIM-9 on the wing tips. Need to build a launcher for this.

Thanks, Carl
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 02:46:13 PM »
Here you go, Carl!

Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »
That's just crazy! ;D
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
Lockheed built CL-1200 variant of F-104.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 04:04:12 PM by finsrin »

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 07:10:17 PM »
Here you go, Carl!




Now that's what I call air superiority.  ;D

Mucho Thanks.

 
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Offline Weaver

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 08:48:16 PM »
Folks,  I have renamed this thread "F-104 Ideas and Inspiration" so as to allow for broader discussions.

To start with - Delta F-104 anyone:



Regards,

Greg


Someone built one of those and posted it on What-If ages ago - looked every bit as good in the plastic as yours does in the pixels.... 8)

My personal thoughts on the best way to "improve" a Starfighter revolve around replacing the radar with a guidance system and the cockpit with a large warhead, thereby turning it into the missile-without-a-man-in-it.....  >:D

Vortices from canards could have some "interesting" interactions with the tailplane at high AoAs: it might be possible to exploit them to positive effect of course, but I suspect they be more of a problem than a benefit. One solution might be to eliminate the tailplane altogether: extend the intake ducts to put them just behind the cockpit, then fit tailplane-size canards on them, at about the same distance from the CofG as the tailplanes were. You could leave the intakes as-is, or you could replace them with F-15 style horizontal ramp ones to really exploit the pressure-recovery of having the canards above them...
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 02:38:11 AM »
Detachable Recon Nose:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2012, 02:39:13 AM »
F-104 Viper:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 03:54:59 AM »
Viper version - thatz it, a kit bash in waiting for someone on this forum.
Bill

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 12:47:40 PM »
Did someone suggest a missile without a man in it?

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2012, 03:56:47 AM »
<...>
Vortices from canards could have some "interesting" interactions with the tailplane at high AoAs: it might be possible to exploit them to positive effect of course, but I suspect they be more of a problem than a benefit. One solution might be to eliminate the tailplane altogether: extend the intake ducts to put them just behind the cockpit, then fit tailplane-size canards on them, at about the same distance from the CofG as the tailplanes were. You could leave the intakes as-is, or you could replace them with F-15 style horizontal ramp ones to really exploit the pressure-recovery of having the canards above them...



Something like this, then?
The F-15 intakes have been cut to about 2/3 of their original width.







Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2012, 04:23:08 AM »
Yes please!!!! :-*
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2012, 04:41:36 AM »
ooh, that's starting to look very Russian, ChernayaAkula !!
           Stick some red stars on it  :)

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2012, 11:43:23 AM »
^ I'm not really sure just what it reminds me of, but it does ring a few (distant) bells.... ALR Prinaha? Convair 200 VTOL design?

--------------

Take a whif... and whif it even further. Cross-whiffing? Whif-bashing?  :-\


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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2012, 03:12:50 AM »
I think I prefer your first one - looked more natural.
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2012, 03:16:45 AM »
^ I'm not really sure just what it reminds me of, but it does ring a few (distant) bells.... ALR Prinaha? Convair 200 VTOL design?


Reminds me a bit of the XFV-12:





or obviously, the F-104CCV:


« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 04:33:31 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2012, 02:39:56 PM »
F-15 intakes -  8)
Probablly build that with 1/100 F-15 intakes on 1/72 F-104.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2012, 04:18:14 AM »
F-15 intakes -  8)
Probablly build that with 1/100 F-15 intakes on 1/72 F-104.
You'd need to do a bit of work, but an exhaust nozzle from that 1/100 F-15 could be used as a starting point to put a PW1120 on that project.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2012, 05:43:29 AM »
F-15 intakes -  8)
Probablly build that with 1/100 F-15 intakes on 1/72 F-104.
You'd need to do a bit of work, but an exhaust nozzle from that 1/100 F-15 could be used as a starting point to put a PW1120 on that project.

And I've got both just sitting around in a box because all I've used is the flying surfaces off the 1/100 F-15 I've got.  The intakes will need some outside faces though.

Offline dy031101

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 05:58:08 AM »
Delta F-104 anyone...


Included here for completeness......

(Because I got around scanning that book page......)

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 06:11:23 AM »
Those conceptual designs look great!
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 11:41:57 AM »
^^ Some really nice stuff!  :)
------------------------------------------------
Just... because!  >:D

Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2012, 03:17:31 PM »
 :)
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2012, 08:54:07 PM »
This reminds me of a question: does anyone have a rough idea on how big a space for radar a F-104G/S/ASA has compared to...... a Sea Harrier FA.2?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2013, 11:20:14 AM »
Some mindless image manipulation:

The new Tu-22U is escorted by a Yak-31 fighter. ;)

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2013, 05:11:48 PM »
Anyone tried modelling a Lancer?

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2013, 02:09:25 PM »
Does anyone have a photo of the cathedral made from 1:48 F-104s?   


kwyxdxLg5T

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2013, 02:45:16 AM »
Given the Monogram 1:48 F-104s have wings and horizontal stabs are markedly larger than the Hasegawa kit's, it's been tempting to add somewhere between 1/4" and 1/2" to each main wing tip of the American kit, rescribe, and display beside the Japanese kit.  Munitions to be determined. 
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline Weaver

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2013, 06:46:58 AM »
Beautiful delta-winged V-tailed Belgian Starfighter built by Patrick H:

http://highandlow.org/scale%20models/SF_114.html

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2013, 01:37:39 PM »
Wow!  Invited?
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Offline kengeorge

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2013, 09:31:59 AM »
Here's a question for our technically minded friends, what do you need to make the F-104 carrier friendly?

This is purely an engineering exercise though
First off is to slow the thing down a bit.
According to Wiki, the F-104 has Boundary layer control (BLC) for the trailing edge flaps, which helps a bit. It also mentions the take off & landing speeds (with BLC?) is 219mph (352km/h) & 207mph (333km/h) respectively.
That's damn fast.

So suggestions, larger wing? (21ft 9in /6.36m) increase span to A-4 size (26ft 6in /8.38m) without the need for wing folding?

I look forward to your comments & suggestions

Ken...

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2013, 02:53:49 PM »
In a way there was a real world naval, carrier based version of the F-104.  This was the CL-1400N ( see pic below).  To get from here to the F-104 you need to follow the path below:

The CL-1400N was derived from the CL-1400 concept and had the cockpit moved to the front for better view during landing. 

The CL-1400 was itself basically a derivative of the CL-1200 proposal with longer fuselage, more powerful engine and increased range.

The Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer was a company-funded proposal for a derivative of the F-104 Starfighter intended for the export market. The CL-1200 design retained the F-104 fuselage, though with a shoulder-mounted wing of larger area moved further aft and a changed tailsection to a more convential shape. It was proposed in August 1970.  This project was not successful since more low cost fighters had been introduced to the market like the Northrop F-5.



« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 03:00:36 PM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2013, 05:38:52 PM »
Then of course there is this one...



Click on pic for more...and read carefully ;)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2013, 11:04:53 PM »
WIthout reading (I'm at work), I have to ask if it's a whif or if it's one of the F-104A's that China Lake flew?

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2013, 02:29:33 AM »
Have the Seattle area peeps tell the story, specifically Terry if he drops by here.   ;D
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2013, 03:36:58 AM »
Have the Seattle area peeps tell the story, specifically Terry if he drops by here.   ;D

Terry is already a member here at BTS under the member name of Braincells37.  I got him signed up at the Seattle IPMS show last year via my cell phone :)
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Offline kengeorge

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2013, 09:51:56 AM »
Hi folks,
    Quick question for you, what other engine could fit inside an F-104?
I'm thinking along the lines of the Spey to replace the J79.
Any other suggestions?

Ken...

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »
Prob need to make a bit of room for the Spey.  F-4s needed some extra room to swap J79s for Speys and they were already huge  ;D

F404 from F/A-18s? Its a bid smaller and lighter but basically the same power, plenty more with an afterburner.  Not sure how much gas the 104 carried though.

Could go nuts, bulge the after fuselage heavily, and give it an F110 from the F-14s.  If it could get off the ground it'd need plenty of drop tanks and a tanker  ;D
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 10:03:48 AM by Cliffy B »
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2013, 10:21:59 AM »
Well, the CL1200 and CL 1400 derivatives (see above) were planned with TF30s IIRC.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2013, 01:00:53 PM »
Well, the CL1200 and CL 1400 derivatives (see above) were planned with TF30s IIRC.
CL1200 variants with F100 engines were proposed; the larger inlets come from TF30 proposals and these.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2013, 01:25:28 AM »
CL-704 VTOL-Starfighter built by Thomas Brückelt using the Matchbox 1:72nd scale F-104. 

Click on thumbnail or html to view at Modellversium.de.

 
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2013, 02:19:01 AM »
Now that is well done! :)
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2013, 01:52:03 AM »
Sweden adopts the ZELL system for a handful of RF-104G's outfitted with slightly extended wing tips and in full splinter paint.
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Offline Geoff

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2013, 04:33:58 AM »
Sweden adopts the ZELL system for a handful of RF-104G's outfitted with slightly extended wing tips and in full splinter paint.

oooohhh! Yes. :)

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2013, 03:33:39 AM »
DACO is developing an injection molded plastic detail set intended for the 1:48th scale Hasegawa F-104 Starfighter as an improvement and correction set that many of you will find to your liking.  Hopefully this will be available for consumption soon.



Link to the DACO home page
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2013, 04:51:32 AM »
Danny had the test shots at Telford, but try as I might I couldn't get him to do the same in 1/72.
Regards
Kit

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Offline Diamondback

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2013, 12:46:34 PM »
Or, taking ideas in a different direction... what could we do with Chuck Yeager's NF-104A using today's technology? Thinking to shoot for more power, shaving weight wherever practical, with wingtip booster rockets in place of tiptanks--and this thing needs to do it's zoom-climb to Astronaut Wings Qualification while still packing a decent attack radar and a pair of Sidewinders or maybe AMRAAMs for self-defense.

Oh, by the way, the bird I envision has to do all that WITH the extra drag of dragging around a two-seater's extended canopy bulge... Will an F120 fit without a total back-half redesign, or am I stuck at F414?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2013, 01:45:34 PM »
A F120 is sufficiently larger tha a J79 so as to require significant back-end redesign as well as enlarged inlets.  It's a more modest increase in Full-AB power, but a PW1120 at 20,000 lbt in full burner would fit with no major changes (it was intended as a J79 replacement, after all).  If memory serves me correctly, you also get a bit of a weight reduction.  I'm willing to bet that a PW1120 built off the very latest F100/JTF22 core might be even more powerful as P&W was competing with GE for the 32,000 engine for the F-16E/F and the PW1120 was derived from an earlier version.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2013, 04:27:24 AM »
Or, taking ideas in a different direction... what could we do with Chuck Yeager's NF-104A using today's technology? Thinking to shoot for more power, shaving weight wherever practical, with wingtip booster rockets in place of tiptanks--and this thing needs to do it's zoom-climb to Astronaut Wings Qualification while still packing a decent attack radar and a pair of Sidewinders or maybe AMRAAMs for self-defense.

Oh, by the way, the bird I envision has to do all that WITH the extra drag of dragging around a two-seater's extended canopy bulge... Will an F120 fit without a total back-half redesign, or am I stuck at F414?


Yeager's NF-104A? Not, he had nothing to do with the design and crashed it because he was too
arrogant to learn how to correctly fly the bugger.
http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_11.html

http://www.nf104.com
Click the Mission link and read the whole story.



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Offline Diamondback

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2013, 09:08:37 AM »
JCF, I only cited Yeager to differentiate the "Astronaut Trainer" variant from other experimental and nonstandard F-104 configurations, just in ccase there was more than one configuration of NF-104 out there--not saying that he had anything to do with design or construction.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2014, 09:48:38 AM »
 :icon_beer: F-104 with F-16XL wings (slightly smaller scale than the F-104) and twin tails from an F/A-18 (sized to look "right" - may or may not be to scale)

Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2014, 04:28:16 PM »
Random Idea:  RAAF F-104C in Vietnam.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2014, 02:38:53 AM »
Random Idea:  RAAF F-104C in Vietnam.
More probable that it would have been an F-104G variant considering the time period. 
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2014, 02:44:08 AM »
I didn't actually mean to adding the "C" bit - case of fat fingers... :-[ ;)
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2014, 02:51:25 AM »
I didn't actually mean to adding the "C" bit - case of fat fingers... :-[ ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2014, 11:27:22 AM »
Wasn't the C the model the RAAF was looking at in the late 50s but was rejected as too complex and a final batch of Sabres were ordered instead?

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2014, 03:45:43 PM »
F-104XL  :-*

Offline TerryCampion

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2015, 11:19:14 PM »
Here's one I built from an actual project for a VTOL F-104, using a rotating triangular wing with corners able to fold.

Italeri, with plastic card extras.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2015, 04:45:37 AM »
What scale?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2015, 09:02:36 PM »
I've got the Unicraft conversion for that -- 1/72

Offline Volkodav

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2015, 10:21:44 PM »
How about an X-wing Starfighter, one set of standard wings set to 15deg anhedral and another set at 15deg dihedral. the lower wing set with under wing stores and the upper set with over wing stores (think Jaguar and Lightning).

The other thought is a Lightning style wing either mid mounted as per the Starfighters original mounting point, or high mounted as on the lancer.

Another option is an F/A-18 wing, either "Classic" or "Rhino" maybe scaleorama for a better fit, mounted as per the original Starfighter wing.

Offline kerick

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2015, 02:06:18 AM »
How about an X-wing Starfighter, one set of standard wings set to 15deg anhedral and another set at 15deg dihedral. the lower wing set with under wing stores and the upper set with over wing stores (think Jaguar and Lightning).

The other thought is a Lightning style wing either mid mounted as per the Starfighters original mounting point, or high mounted as on the lancer.

Another option is an F/A-18 wing, either "Classic" or "Rhino" maybe scaleorama for a better fit, mounted as per the original Starfighter wing.

Sounds like something retro like the early versions of the Viper from BSG. Where to put an R2 unit?

Offline jcf

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2015, 02:41:39 AM »
How about an X-wing Starfighter, one set of standard wings set to 15deg anhedral and another set at 15deg dihedral. the lower wing set with under wing stores and the upper set with over wing stores (think Jaguar and Lightning).

The other thought is a Lightning style wing either mid mounted as per the Starfighters original mounting point, or high mounted as on the lancer.

Another option is an F/A-18 wing, either "Classic" or "Rhino" maybe scaleorama for a better fit, mounted as per the original Starfighter wing.


Sounds like something retro like the early versions of the Viper from BSG. Where to put an R2 unit?


Behind the cockpit in the EE bay would be the obvious location.

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: May 25, 2015, 03:18:57 AM »
Stop giving me ideas...
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: May 25, 2015, 07:34:00 AM »
Stop giving me ideas...

???

I thought that that was what this forum was for! :-\
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Offline kerick

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: May 25, 2015, 09:52:35 AM »
How about an X-wing Starfighter, one set of standard wings set to 15deg anhedral and another set at 15deg dihedral. the lower wing set with under wing stores and the upper set with over wing stores (think Jaguar and Lightning).

The other thought is a Lightning style wing either mid mounted as per the Starfighters original mounting point, or high mounted as on the lancer.

Another option is an F/A-18 wing, either "Classic" or "Rhino" maybe scaleorama for a better fit, mounted as per the original Starfighter wing.



Sounds like something retro like the early versions of the Viper from BSG. Where to put an R2 unit?


Behind the cockpit in the EE bay would be the obvious location.




Then move the cockpit back to just in front of the wings. Then attach tank parts!

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2015, 07:23:57 AM »
Interesting image:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2015, 07:27:19 AM »
F-104 with Bill's (aka Finsrin) ultimate car:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2015, 03:55:54 AM »
Has anyone ever seen a photo of an F-104 carrying Laser Guided bombs?  I was thinking it could be interesting to see a late model one (say an Italian ASA version) with a LGB under each wing and perhaps a guidance pod on the centreline or fuselage pylons.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2015, 05:52:48 AM »
Has anyone ever seen a photo of an F-104 carrying Laser Guided bombs?  I was thinking it could be interesting to see a late model one (say an Italian ASA version) with a LGB under each wing and perhaps a guidance pod on the centreline or fuselage pylons.
Perhaps gut the cameras from a RF-104G and put the guts of a pod in their place?

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2016, 09:20:05 AM »
John Lacey just created these. Great inspiration.  SAAF F-104s






Source: Facebook - John's Aircraft & Armour Profile Page
Work in progress ::

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2016, 03:37:03 AM »
One could do up several 1/32 Starfighters as the old game of Jarts.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2016, 08:07:35 PM »
Has anyone ever seen a photo of an F-104 carrying Laser Guided bombs?  I was thinking it could be interesting to see a late model one (say an Italian ASA version) with a LGB under each wing and perhaps a guidance pod on the centreline or fuselage pylons.

No, but I don't see any reason why not in principle. There's certainly room on the centreline for a targeting pod, and it's usefully far forwards too, giving it some view to the side. You might imagine a TF-104 with the pod and four tanks as the designator (or with the gut of a pod in place of the radar as per Elmayerle's suggestion), while standard F-104s tote the LGBs.

Another thing that would look good is an ATLIS II pod on the centreline and two AS.30Ls under the wings. It would ring true because, IIRC, Luftwaffe F-104s were cleared for the AS.20 from which AS.30 was developed.

Here's another thought: how about a pair of Mavericks under the wings? I don't think there'd be clearance for a Maverick under the fuselage, but the wingtips might be an option for two more: the standard tip tanks must be pretty heavy.
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2016, 08:22:32 AM »
How about an updated F-104 with a long proboscis such as that found on the Atlas Cheetah or Kfir C10:




Maybe even in Sth American scheme such as those shown above?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2016, 08:46:22 AM »
Has anyone ever seen a photo of an F-104 carrying Laser Guided bombs?  I was thinking it could be interesting to see a late model one (say an Italian ASA version) with a LGB under each wing and perhaps a guidance pod on the centreline or fuselage pylons.

No, but I don't see any reason why not in principle. There's certainly room on the centreline for a targeting pod, and it's usefully far forwards too, giving it some view to the side. You might imagine a TF-104 with the pod and four tanks as the designator (or with the gut of a pod in place of the radar as per Elmayerle's suggestion), while standard F-104s tote the LGBs.

Another thing that would look good is an ATLIS II pod on the centreline and two AS.30Ls under the wings. It would ring true because, IIRC, Luftwaffe F-104s were cleared for the AS.20 from which AS.30 was developed.

Here's another thought: how about a pair of Mavericks under the wings? I don't think there'd be clearance for a Maverick under the fuselage, but the wingtips might be an option for two more: the standard tip tanks must be pretty heavy.
Actually, I was thinking of putting the guts of the pod in one of the already developed recce camera pods on the underside of the aircraft.   I figure that with two As,30Ls and tanks on the wingtips would be quite suitable.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2017, 06:03:00 AM »
Found on YouTube this afternoon: F-104 Starfighter Zero Length Launcher (ZELL) "ZELL FOR DEFENSE" (Lockheed/U.S. Navy) https://youtu.be/XCbegiIhLGg

Includes some decent clips of various test launches in Germany and USA plus some interesting clips of the F-104 launching and recovering from the SATS (Short Airfield for Tactical Support). 
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2017, 06:26:07 AM »
Interesting video.  I wish there was a 1/48 ZELL conversion available.

It could be interesting to do a truck mounted operational version.  I ship based system could also be interesting as a kind of modernism CAM fighter.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2017, 08:58:20 AM »
This kit seems to have the right length booster Greg. Could be a place to start

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/h/Hawk48%20Guerilla.JPG

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: March 26, 2017, 09:12:58 AM »
This kit seems to have the right length booster Greg. Could be a place to start

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/h/Hawk48%20Guerilla.JPG


Yeah, I have seen that kit before - they can go for a pretty penny (e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hawk-Guerrilla-Combat-Team-Model-Kit-300-300-Rare-1963-Vintage-/302237999114).  I also wouldn't necessarily want more than the launch equipment (and maybe the truck...) so it would be nice if there was a simple resin version available to purchase.  One could then use that for a number of ideas.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: March 26, 2017, 09:16:12 AM »
This kit seems to have the right length booster Greg. Could be a place to start

http://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/h/Hawk48%20Guerilla.JPG

Ah, yes, the old Hawk 1/48 ZELL Thunderjet.  I don't remember seeing one mentioned in "Runways of Fire", but it's plausible.  I know they did a fair bit of testing with an F-100; found out a few things not to do, too.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2017, 09:17:23 AM »
The guy who built this kit:

http://www.arcair.com/Gal6/5601-5700/gal5625-F-104-Murphy/00.shtm

Said he would put the conversion into rubber, whether he did or not I don't know.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2017, 09:22:08 AM »
The guy who built this kit:

http://www.arcair.com/Gal6/5601-5700/gal5625-F-104-Murphy/00.shtm

Said he would put the conversion into rubber, whether he did or not I don't know.

Nicely done!  He's even got the booster nozzle canted to put the exhaust vector through the CG of the combined assemblage.  That's very important from controllability requirements.  "Runways of Fire" talks about a F-100 ZELL trial where everything was fitted up and then sat most of the day in the sun where differential heating curved the fuselage and shifted the CG to where the pilot had quite a sporty ride when they did fire it off.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:41:01 PM by elmayerle »

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2017, 09:25:39 AM »
The guy who built this kit:

http://www.arcair.com/Gal6/5601-5700/gal5625-F-104-Murphy/00.shtm

Said he would put the conversion into rubber, whether he did or not I don't know.


Have just emailed him to ask.
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2017, 05:51:05 AM »
One that I wasn't previously aware of:   apparently back before they settled on the Mirage III there was Australian interest in a RR Avon powered version of the F-104:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: April 09, 2017, 09:18:37 AM »
Now that could have been interesting.  'Twould be an interesting subject to model, particularly if a later model than "A" airframe was used as the basis.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: April 09, 2017, 11:38:05 AM »
This does suggest the possibility of a French counter-offer, installing an ATAR 9C, to be later replaced by an ATAR 9K, in a F-104.  From that point, perhaps Lockheed offering a French F-104 with ATAR and two DEFA cannon replacing the M61?

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2017, 04:33:15 PM »
Now that could have been interesting.  'Twould be an interesting subject to model, particularly if a later model than "A" airframe was used as the basis.

It certainly could have been an interesting version.  Although it's hard to do a direct comparison and noting that the J79 was a revolutionary engine, a quick comparison indicates that a Avon powered version, especially some of the latter more powerful variants, could have proven interesting wrt performance. 

A RAAF version based upon the F-104G would certainly be interesting.
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2017, 03:32:51 PM »
Found it on http://conceptships.blogspot.rs/ Starstealth, Darkfighter,...?  ;)
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2017, 04:02:44 PM »
Oh, my!   :-* :-\

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2017, 03:39:49 AM »
Nice!
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2017, 05:10:13 AM »
Freakin' huge based on canopy size.  :icon_fsm:
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2017, 05:16:02 AM »
True - what are we talking about?  Maybe a 1.5 - 2 times increase?
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2017, 11:46:33 PM »
^ That is soooo gorgeous!  :-*
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2017, 10:04:51 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2017, 11:35:25 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2017, 12:16:37 PM »
Perhaps also with IRIS-T missiles in place of Sidewinders?

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2017, 09:07:14 PM »
Oh, oh, oh  :smiley:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:34 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

That would require different intakes I suppose??

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2018, 08:43:39 AM »
Odd thought, an Italian upgrade beyond the F-104ASA with the J79 replaced by a modern engine (RB.199, EJ200, F404/F414, or PW1120), modern avionics, and carrying Meteor missiles instead of Sparrows.

Is a good thought !

That would require different intakes I suppose??
Nope, I believe the airflow for most of those is close to that of the J79; certainly the PW1120 was to replace the J79 in Phantom II's without inlet change and it is the most powerful of those listed.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2018, 11:21:53 AM »
Hmm. I had a look around and it turns out I have nozzles for most of the engines under discussion in the thread laying around, as well as an F-104G kit, all in 1/72, so I did bit of comparing. No photos because I have crap lighting and I seriously need to clean my workbench, but here are some verbal findings:

General Electric J79 (Revell F-4F): Since I had the kit in the same box (60th anniversary of the Luftwaffe gift set), I figured I'd check if they were the same size. They are - though the build process is different and you can't use the Phantom nozzles in the F-104 kit without cutting off the burner can and installing it separately. It does mean that any engine you can install in the F-104, you can install in the Phantom, though.

General Electric F110 (Revell F-16C-50): Forget it, the nozzle on the F-16 is so big you could stick the J79 nozzle inside it with room to spare. While I know "physically impossible" tends to be answered with "challenge accepted", this just wouldn't work without an entirely new tail.

General Electric F404 (Academy F/A-18C): I couldn't find the actual nozzles, but it looks like they're a tiny bit smaller in diameter than the J79 nozzles. They're also longer, and in the contracted position, rather than fully open like the J79 nozzles, so they'd look very different.

General Electric F414 (Italeri JAS-39 Gripen): I actually have a Revell Super Hornet I was looking for the parts to so I could compare those, but I couldn't find it. Checking the Gripen nozzles against the tail end of the Revell kit though says they're the same size. And the Gripen nozzle is also the same diameter as the J79 nozzle. Like the F404, they're molded in the contracted position, and they're kind of long (even longer than the F404s) so they'll stick out further from the fuselage shroud thingy around the F-4's exhausts.

General Electric F101 (Revell B-1B): Tested this for a laugh, if the F-16 nozzle was large then this is ridiculous. If the B-1B nozzles were fully open, you could fit the F-16 nozzles inside them like you could the J79 into the F110... (While I was looking for nozzles I also found an F100 nozzle from Revell's F-15E in 1/48 - it's only a little too large for the B-1's engine mounts!)

Eurojet EJ200 (Revell Typhoon): The nozzles for these, while available in both open and closed in the same kit, and therefore leaving you with a spare pair of nozzles after every build, are also sadly *slightly* smaller in diameter than the J79 nozzles. You may be able to make it work however.

Turbo Union RB199 (Revell Tornado): These are around the same diameter as the EJ200 engines, but they only come in the fully dilated position, and it has those thrust reversers which won't fit inside the engine shroud on the F-104 (or the F-4). I think this would be kind of difficult to execute.

Pratt and Whitney F100 (no manufacturer): I actually don't have any of these except the F-16 version which is just as huge as the others. I have built a few F-15 kits though, and the F100 as presented on those is a little smaller in diameter. Not sufficiently to fit on the F-104 though.

Pratt and Whitney TF30 (Esci F-111A): These are, once again, a bit too large for the F-104, plus they're in the dilated position, which means they're really short and would not be visible from any aspect except the rear. TF30 engines from a Tomcat kit with converged nozzles would stick out more.. but they still wouldn't fit due to the larger diameter.

SNECMA M88 (Hobby Boss Rafale C): I didn't actually find these but I found the airframe and the part where the nozzles connect to. These are similar in diameter to the EJ200 nozzles, i.e. slightly too small for the F-104, but possibly doable.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2018, 03:34:42 PM »
Found it on http://conceptships.blogspot.rs/ Starstealth, Darkfighter,...?  ;)


Perfect!  :smiley:

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »
Thanks - - - - hmmm

 ;)

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2018, 07:23:13 PM »

General Electric F414 (Italeri JAS-39 Gripen): I actually have a Revell Super Hornet I was looking for the parts to so I could compare those, but I couldn't find it. Checking the Gripen nozzles against the tail end of the Revell kit though says they're the same size. And the Gripen nozzle is also the same diameter as the J79 nozzle. Like the F404, they're molded in the contracted position, and they're kind of long (even longer than the F404s) so they'll stick out further from the fuselage shroud thingy around the F-4's


Errr...apart from the most recent Gripen E/F, of which I'm pretty sure there is no kit yet, all the Gripens have RM12 engines which are essentially GE F404s.
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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2018, 11:46:34 PM »
To do a PW1120 engine, you need to use a 1/72 F100 nozzle on a 1/48 F-104 or a 1/100 F100 nozzle on a 1/72 F-104.  The non-dimensionalized contours are the same, just scaled down, much as the F404/RM12/F414 nozzle contours are scaled up for the F110/F101DFE.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: March 20, 2018, 01:59:58 AM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:

« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:09:22 AM by ysi_maniac »

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: March 20, 2018, 02:19:23 AM »
So, an EJ-200 powered T/F-104G-ASA with the original intakes is ok. What about the C of G? The engine is shorter than the J-79, and lighter, so it could be mounted further back without lengthening the overall length of the aircraft - is that right/OK for a Wif?     ???

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: March 20, 2018, 03:06:10 AM »
Works for this engineer.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: March 20, 2018, 03:42:06 AM »
Works for this engineer.

 ;)

I have a cunning plan probably in 1/144th

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: March 20, 2018, 07:35:53 AM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:



Presumably it drops its tip tanks when it needs to go "full stealth" as they make, both by themselves and in the sharp intersections with the leading and trailing edges, excellent radar reflectors.  You might be able to reduce it by making them of composite with RAM incorporated in it, but that still leaves the intersections to create reflectors.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: March 20, 2018, 08:02:26 AM »
If you're going full sci-fi like that, there's always this thing (which I was astonished not to see in the thread already):



The Sv-152 Svärd Variable Fighter (i.e. it transforms into a robot), designed by Shoji Kawamori. This is one of like three images that exists of it, it only featured as stills in flashbacks in Macross Delta, but despite some people's initial interpretations, this is very clearly an F-104-derived design...

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: March 20, 2018, 08:34:14 PM »
What I wanted to qualify as 'Perfect' is this. :smiley:



Presumably it drops its tip tanks when it needs to go "full stealth" as they make, both by themselves and in the sharp intersections with the leading and trailing edges, excellent radar reflectors.  You might be able to reduce it by making them of composite with RAM incorporated in it, but that still leaves the intersections to create reflectors.


Or have them shaped like those multi-mission pods the F-35 is getting.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2018, 08:18:30 AM »
If you're going full sci-fi like that, there's always this thing (which I was astonished not to see in the thread already):



The Sv-152 Svärd Variable Fighter (i.e. it transforms into a robot), designed by Shoji Kawamori. This is one of like three images that exists of it, it only featured as stills in flashbacks in Macross Delta, but despite some people's initial interpretations, this is very clearly an F-104-derived design...


Thank you for posting this on Sebastian. I have a line drawing of this one but no color shots.

You can definitely see the F-104 lineage of the design.

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2018, 08:26:18 AM »
Thinking of a F-104J-Kai with bits of the F-104ASA from Alenia, possibly sharing a radar with the Mitsubishi F-2, as well as a re-engining with PW1120 or F404 or F414; perhaps borrow a canard set from a Kfir to add to the mix for color.

Addendum: Armament would be a mix of Japanese AAM-3 and AAM-4 missiles.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:30:07 AM by elmayerle »

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2018, 08:45:49 AM »
Could the fuselage of a 1/144 kit be used to house a fountain pen?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2018, 09:31:18 AM »
Could the fuselage of a 1/144 kit be used to house a fountain pen?
"Skywriting" out the exhaust nozzle?  I could see that as a joke/novelty item for aviation buffs.