Author Topic: M113 Family of Vehicles  (Read 125665 times)

Offline Gingie

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2013, 05:46:40 AM »
that side would be where a lot of the section / squad gear would go. Rucks, meals, tent, stove, ammo, snowshoes, water cans, radio trays (on some). In theory, it could have dual internal tanks, but there would not be much room left.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2013, 08:00:06 AM »
Okay, a couple of questions, folks:

Before they moved it out to either side of the ramp, the M113's fuel tank was in the back of the left hand sponson, on the "shelf" over the tracks as you'd see it from the inside. So:

1) What's in the equivalent position on the right hand side?

2) If there's nothing immovable there, then is there any reason why you couldn't extend the vehicle's range by putting another fuel tank there? I know there would have to be a filler cap above it as on the other side.
Easy one, batteries.

Offline Gingie

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2013, 10:45:13 AM »
true enough, but, the battery box occupies about 20% of the space as compared to the fuel tank.

Offline deathjester

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2013, 06:29:46 PM »
I thought you guys (and gals) would like to see this...

I've been looking up 105mm turrets...

Look what I've done!





All you need is;

M113 ACAV
105mm Gun set (short barrel & baseplate)
Turret from Vickers Light tank
Reverse flow cooling intakes from Saracen APC
Afterburner connecting ring from 1/72 Hasegawa F-14
...
Simples!!

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2013, 07:47:48 PM »
that side would be where a lot of the section / squad gear would go. Rucks, meals, tent, stove, ammo, snowshoes, water cans, radio trays (on some). In theory, it could have dual internal tanks, but there would not be much room left.

I'm thinking of this in the context of a Rarden-turreted recce vehicle, so it wouldn't be carrying a squad.

I found some pics showing the battery box after I'd posted. What lives immediately forward of it? I can see some white boxes sitting on the "shelf" but I'm not clear what they are.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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jetboy

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2013, 09:45:40 PM »
HI,I,LL throw my thrupence in,N.A.S.A,s version is quite nice as the astronaut emergency removal vehicle,i think they have a fire,suppressing one as well,
Though,for looks,you cant beat the tracked chapperal system,gerry anderson to say the least?
cheers Don

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2013, 10:31:36 PM »
This might help:



Space not marked in this diagram is for storage.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2013, 03:13:24 AM »
I thought you guys (and gals) would like to see this...

I've been looking up 105mm turrets...

Look what I've done!





All you need is;

M113 ACAV
105mm Gun set (short barrel & baseplate)
Turret from Vickers Light tank
Reverse flow cooling intakes from Saracen APC
Afterburner connecting ring from 1/72 Hasegawa F-14
...
Simples!!


What happens when they fire the gun?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline deathjester

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2013, 04:08:31 AM »
Things go boom, screaming, crying...the usual !

Are you intimating a design flaw here??  >:(

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2013, 04:09:55 AM »
Who me... ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline deathjester

  • 'Remember - Tiredness Kills Hedgehogs...!'
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2013, 04:19:44 AM »
Mmm, what WAS I thinking...  :icon_music:

It actually is quite similar to the GIAT 105 turret - I've added a turret bin, too.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2013, 10:13:00 PM »
true enough, but, the battery box occupies about 20% of the space as compared to the fuel tank.
From memory we also stowed 20l water jerries on top of  the battery box

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2013, 11:36:49 PM »
The way I see it, an M113 recce with a Scimitar turret, extra fuel tank and maybe five crew at the most is still going to have more internal space than the real Scimitar.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2013, 10:10:29 AM »
From memory the inside of the MRV with Scorpion turret had big struts coming down on each corner of the turret ring to the floor and the turret basket inside it. There was a bit of space around the turret ring, certainly a lot more than the inside of a LAV-25. There is most likely a picture on the internet. Shall now go to Google and try and find you one.

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2013, 10:17:47 AM »
There is one close framed interior photo in this walk around series.

http://s301.photobucket.com/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV#/user/toby2282/library/M113%20MRV?page=1&_suid=136530085764009014404489412152

The 'struts' from my memory are part of the turret basket that line up with the floor attachment points (the bottom of the basket has a bit of clearance from the floor) with the turret forward. You can kind of make out the rather large clearance around the turret basket (by AFV standards).

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2013, 11:17:10 PM »
Cheers for that!  :)

Another question folks:

The US Army has always favored powered ramps at the back of an APC/MICV, whereas the British Army has always favoured side-hinged doors. What do we think of this? What are the issues and who's right/wrong?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline deathjester

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2013, 11:45:51 PM »
Less to go wrong in the field?  Or is it that the side opening doors are more heavily armoured than the ramps?

Offline raafif

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2013, 06:52:57 AM »
vehicles on the battlefield are a prize target - it's better for a soldier to get out & off to cover as fast as poss.  The US prefers ramps as it lets the grunt loaded with backpack etc get out easier without catching anything on the vehicle.  Brit troops generally were not so heavily loaded up (different for the guys at Falklands tho).

Ramps can let a lot of lead in if caught open, whereas doors are better for urban use where you can expect fire from the rear (ie Nthrn Ireland) - a smaller hole lets less lead inside.

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2013, 08:58:03 AM »
I don't think the British vehicles (FV432 and Warrior) have significantly smaller doorways that M113s and Bradleys, it's just that the back is vertical wit ha single swing door, rather than sloping with a ramp.

There are a couple of disadvantages to the ramp:

1. It doesn't work if the vehicle power is off. Yes, they have emergency swing doors set in the ramp, but they're much smaller.

2. It can have problems if the ground behind the vehicle isn't flat: what if the end of the ramp comes down on a big rock, or a piece of urban street furniture?


On the other hand, there are a couple of disadvantages to the swing door:

1. If the hinge is on the left, then the door is hard to open when the vehicle's on a cross-slope with the left side higher, because you have to lift the weight of the door against gravity. Vice versa if the hinge is on the right.

2. Likewise, if the vehicle is on a right-side-higher cross slope, then a left-hinged door is hard to close, because you've got to lift it against gravity, and vice-versa.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2013, 09:30:02 AM »
Cheers for that!  :)

Another question folks:

The US Army has always favored powered ramps at the back of an APC/MICV, whereas the British Army has always favoured side-hinged doors. What do we think of this? What are the issues and who's right/wrong?

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.  Powered ramps allow faster egress/ingress but don't provide side protection, whereas doors do.  If you lose power, you can lower the ramp but you can't raise it again.  With doors, if you lose power, you can usually still open and shut them although, the increased levels of armour on them it's becoming more difficult to do it easily.  Sometimes, the terrain doesn't favour the lowering of a ramp, so egress/ingress becomes more difficult, whereas doors, if split can still be opened.   Neither side is right or wrong, they are merely differemt solutions to the same problem and both is like everything a compromise.   Whichever way, I was under the impression you wanted minimal change to the M113 in British service?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2013, 09:37:49 AM »
I don't think the British vehicles (FV432 and Warrior) have significantly smaller doorways that M113s and Bradleys, it's just that the back is vertical wit ha single swing door, rather than sloping with a ramp.

There are a couple of disadvantages to the ramp:

1. It doesn't work if the vehicle power is off. Yes, they have emergency swing doors set in the ramp, but they're much smaller.

The smaller door is more for convenience than anything else and is usually used by the crew, not the passengers.  It was intended as an emergency door.  I'm not sure where you get the idea you can't lower the ramp if there is no power.  In an emergency, the driver has a cable cutter which he can activated to permamently lower the ramp and the passengers have a prybar which they can use to break the cable at the door end.  They can also operate the latches directly.  Once the latches are released and the winch or cable released, the ramp will just fall.

Quote
2. It can have problems if the ground behind the vehicle isn't flat: what if the end of the ramp comes down on a big rock, or a piece of urban street furniture?

That can be a problem but a good commander and driver won't allow that to happen if at all possible.  A door has similar problems.  What happens if the vehicle parks downslope or sideslope with a door?

Quote
On the other hand, there are a couple of disadvantages to the swing door:

1. If the hinge is on the left, then the door is hard to open when the vehicle's on a cross-slope with the left side higher, because you have to lift the weight of the door against gravity. Vice versa if the hinge is on the right.

2. Likewise, if the vehicle is on a right-side-higher cross slope, then a left-hinged door is hard to close, because you've got to lift it against gravity, and vice-versa.

Exactly.  Which is why they had to adopt a power system to open the door in the Warrior.  It was simply too heavy for the squaddies to push when it was down or across a slope.  There is a another difference.  The FV432 and Warrior have sills which the squaddies have to step up to, whereas the ramp has none.

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2013, 10:59:43 AM »
Ramps also have the advantage of being easier to get things in and out of the bucket. On the M59 APC (the APC before the M113) the ramp and bay was wide enough to fit a jeep in. On the M113 the ramp enabled a L5 pack howitzer to be wheeled in and out. Also it makes it easier to egress while moving. The ramp is just dragged along behind the APC and the grunts step off onto the ground whereas doing similar via a door and you have to leap into the air well above the ground 'riding the tracks hobo' style. But the best thing about a ramp is the last guy out doesn't have to close it. The driver can hit a button to close up the ramp while the grunts can focus on fighting not sorting out the carrier.

Which also works in reverse when the vehicle is hit and might be full of smoke and flame so the injured, disorientated grunts in the back don't have to try and unlock a latch to open the door someone can just hit the button to drop the ramp and everyone can pile out. There was a case of a M2 in ODS which was hit by friendly fire and the injured dismounts in the back couldn’t get find their way out and were going to crispy up until the driver re-entered the vehicle and hit his button to drop the ramp enabling them to escape. The driver suffered serious burns but saved the lives of the dismounts. Which leads to the issue of a horizontal hinged door (ie a ramp) being less prone to being jammed than a vertical hinged door as gravity works evenly on all the hinges.

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2013, 07:07:59 PM »
  Whichever way, I was under the impression you wanted minimal change to the M113 in British service?

Oh, I'm not changing it on mine: I've just been looking at a LOT of pics of the back end of an FV438 and an M113 and wondering about the differences in approach.  :D

At one point I was looking at having the ramp locked on the Swingfire M113 and the crew just using the smaller swing door, but the design I came up with eventually didn't need that.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2013, 07:43:42 PM »
Another turreted M113, the Danish PNMK, with a 2-man Italian turret mounting a 25mm:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
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Re: M113 Family of Vehicles
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2013, 07:47:32 PM »
Swiss M113 with the same 20mm cannon turret as the Pbv.302:

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith