Author Topic: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration  (Read 54058 times)

Offline jcf

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2015, 02:25:09 PM »
The early version R-3350 problems were sorted.

True but the question is when and how expensive was it to sort them out?   The Australian choice was made in 1944 IIRC for the Lincoln.  The B-29 was still suffering problems and doubts then.  I think on reflection that the B-29 would have been a wiser choice but not for us to manufacture them.  We lacked the experience and the industry to make it a reality.   We'd have been better off purchasing them or even better, just hanging onto our B-24s, which were fine aircraft and well suited to the role that the Lincoln fulfilled.

Quote
Lincoln max normal 14,000lbs, B-29 max normal 20,000lbs.

I will note that I used the word "internally" to qualify my point, Jon.  IIRC the B-29 was only able to carry a smaller load than the Lancaster internally, when it was first mooted as the carrier for the A-Bomb.  It required considerable modification to make it capable of fitting the Fat Man bomb into it's fuselage bomb bay (I assume it lacked the later external wing hard hard points?).

Uh, no the B-29 could always carry a greater weight of standard munitions internally than any version of the
Lancaster or Lincoln, up to 40 AN-M64 500lb bombs (20,000 lbs), farther and faster to boot.

You're conflating the single long bay mod required for the Thin Man design (long and skinny) with the Fat Man
installation. Only one aircraft was modded to fit a Thin Man type device, the so called Pullman mod and it was later
restored to normal B-29 configuration. The forward bomb-bay on the Silverplate aircraft did not require extensive modification
to fit Little Boy or Fat Man. A Brit style single-point bomb release was fitted to the forward bay on a redesigned
H-frame rack, the aft bay was used for fuel tanks. No mods were made to the doors or aircraft structure. External hardpoints
are irrelevant when discussing the first generation nukes as they were designed to be armed while in flight, kinda hard to do
if it's hangin' on the outside.

As to the R-3350 problems, which had zero to do with the aircraft design, the -41 version on the aircraft that were delivered in
July/August of 1945, and on, had adressed most of the issues. The switch from carburetor to fuel injection eliminating some
of the most serious.

Anyhow license production in Australia in the 1940s is extremely doubtful for reasons of technical/manufacturing capability,
cost, (doubtful that Oz industry of the period would be able to produce it and it would have been a budget buster,
with the two feeding each other negatively) and US security, both national and industrial. Both the military and the politicians
would have been loudly opposed.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2015, 07:53:02 PM »
Lincoln Mk.1 could lift 22,000 lbs.  B-29 could lift 20,000 lbs, Jon.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2015, 09:15:47 PM »
Wasn't the 22000lb specifically the Grand slam bomb, which required modifications to carry and could also be carried by modified B-29?  I think normal loads are being compared to special loads, and being used to distort the true facts that the B-29 was a more modern and capable aircraft that usually carried heavier loads over greater distances.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2015, 10:05:52 PM »
Yup. The B-29 was modified to carry the Tallboy and Grand Slam both internally and externally. And the T-12.

The US built the T-12 Cloudmaker.  Originally designed to meet a 42,000 lb (19,000 kg) target weight (the maximum payload for the Convair B-36 "Peacemaker" bomber), the original design with its hardened case was slightly less than 43,000 pounds. The final T-12 weighed 43,600 lb (nearly 20 metric tons).

Do a Google on B-29 + Grand Slam and head over to the Images tab.





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Offline jcf

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #129 on: November 07, 2015, 02:13:16 AM »
Wasn't the 22000lb specifically the Grand slam bomb, which required modifications to carry and could also be carried by modified B-29?  I think normal loads are being compared to special loads, and being used to distort the true facts that the B-29 was a more modern and capable aircraft that usually carried heavier loads over greater distances.

Got it in one Paul.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2015, 05:52:00 AM »
I doubt that Australia would or could have undertaken license manufacture of the B-29.  It was, for it's day, a very advanced plane in so many ways and being fully pressurised would have been quite a leap forward compared to the Lincoln.   While the Lincoln flew lower, IIRC, it carried a bigger conventional load internally than the B-29 could.   IMHO, the Lincoln was the right choice at the time for Australian industry.  It was the biggest aircraft we have ever manufactured downunder and was not without it's own share of problems.

This is a what if type scenario... ???

So, no doubts are allowed to be entertained then?   ???

I wasn't asking for analysis of the backstory or proposing this as something that should have occurred (as all too many seem to try to do).  I have a kit and wish to make it like described with a fictional backstory to go along with it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 05:59:28 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #131 on: November 07, 2015, 07:12:22 AM »
Rather than license manufacture, how about Oz assembly of B-29 kits?
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #132 on: November 07, 2015, 03:30:28 PM »
Wasn't the 22000lb specifically the Grand slam bomb, which required modifications to carry and could also be carried by modified B-29?  I think normal loads are being compared to special loads, and being used to distort the true facts that the B-29 was a more modern and capable aircraft that usually carried heavier loads over greater distances.

The only modification was, IIRC removal of the bomb bay doors and the placing of a single suspension beam in the middle of the bomb bay, rather than the several smaller beams across the bomb bay roof.

However, again I will point out, I said specifically "internally".  As I understand it, the B-29 could carry a Grand Slam externally, not internally whereas the Lincoln could carry it internally and was designed to, from the outset, whereas the B-29 wasn't.

Jon, there would be nothing stopping Australian Government Aircraft Factories from assembling B-29s from CKD kits.  Afterall, they did that with the initial Lincolns IIRC.   However, the B-29 was also appreciably more expensive than the Lincoln.  While Australia had enjoyed a high balance of payments with Lend Lease and it's purchases from the US in armaments, that ceased with the end of the war.   Whether they assembled it or made it, it would still have cost a lot more than the Lincoln.

Again, I'll point out that the RAAF had quite an adequate aircraft already in service - the B-24 Liberator, which could and did fulfil the same function as the Lincoln - low-medium altitude long range strategic bombing in 1945.   While I appreciate the B-29's technical excellence, it wasn't necessary for any foreseeable future conflict that the RAAF might be a participant in, after 1945.  However, instead of retaining that, we decided to purchase and build the Lincoln.   We weren't going to be dropping atomic bombs and we weren't likely to be facing superior Nazi night fighters.

This does not stop people discussing a what-if scenario, where the RAAF does acquire B-29s.   Nor does it stop someone building an RAAF B-29.   I am merely pointing out the reasons why it didn't happen and what the alternatives were.   I am sorry if that upsets you Greg and why you specifically pick on me to vet your anger, whereas JCF has said repeatedly basically the same message. 

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #133 on: November 07, 2015, 10:11:46 PM »
With the RAAF option for the B-29, or even more to the point the B-50, there would not have been the urgent need for the Canberra.  As I understand it the requirement for the Canberra was tied in part to an Australian nuclear mission, if the RAAF already had B-50s perhaps they could/would wait for Vulcans, or at least Valiants (maybe even B-47s).

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2015, 12:22:45 AM »
Go back to reply #55 and then work your way backwards, it's already been discussed.  The wing spar in a B-29 prevented any of the Grand Slams being carried internally --- reason it has two bomb bays 

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #135 on: November 08, 2015, 02:34:45 AM »
And speaking of very clean Washingtons (B-29s), Shackletons, Lincolns and many other nice flying machines:

RAF Odiham 1953: The Royal Review of the Royal Air Force









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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #136 on: November 08, 2015, 04:25:13 AM »

However, again I will point out, I said specifically "internally".  As I understand it, the B-29 could carry a Grand Slam externally, not internally whereas the Lincoln could carry it internally and was designed to, from the outset, whereas the B-29 wasn't.

Given the Lincoln was essentially a development of the Lancaster (hell, it even started out being named the Lancaster IV) which in turn was a development of the Manchester and had a fuselage that apart from some lengthening was essentially unchanged across the three types (at least as far as the weapons bay was concerned), I fail to see how one can say that the Lincoln was designed to carry a Grand Slam from the outset.  From everything I have seen/read, the Grand Slam was a special/rare store to be carried by either the Lancaster or Lincoln...or B-29 for that matter.  It was most certainly not a standard, every day weapon and thus should be really left out of any discussions comparing carrying capacities of the various types.

I also challenge anyone to produce a photo or otherwise showing the Grand Slam being carried internally by a Lincoln in any better configuration than that shown on the previous page at Reply#128 for the B-29.  Both needed mods to do so.

I am sorry if that upsets you Greg and why you specifically pick on me to vet your anger, whereas JCF has said repeatedly basically the same message.

Do you really want to go there??
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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #137 on: November 08, 2015, 04:27:23 AM »
Moving on from this distraction - what about a US (as opposed to the Chinese development of the Tu-4) turboprop B-29/B-50?
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #138 on: November 08, 2015, 06:12:12 AM »

The only modification was, IIRC removal of the bomb bay doors and the placing of a single suspension beam in the middle of the bomb bay, rather than the several smaller beams across the bomb bay roof.


It actually hung off the main wing spar (as did the Tallboy).

The Tallboy was the only one to be carried internally though ----

My Dad served with 617 during the time they used the Tallboy and Grand Slam and told me a number of things not so well known ---

Online elmayerle

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #139 on: November 08, 2015, 09:48:36 AM »
If memory serves me correctly, they were restoring Enola Gay when I visited Silver Hill and they said the bomb shackles were the same as for Grand Slam and they'd had to go to consultants in Britain to get the necessary drawings for the restoration.

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2015, 03:09:06 AM »
Some different armament options:


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Offline KiwiZac

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2015, 09:29:13 AM »
I thank you, my credit card does not.
Anytime Zac. Anytime. We should do the math: how much in $/gram
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2015, 04:52:43 PM »
Yeah nice find with the Bomber-escort conversion of a Boeing YB-29 Greg!
Anyone got more detailed pictures?
Was it a mock-up or did it actually fly?

M.A.D

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #145 on: November 28, 2015, 04:24:02 AM »
Here's an odd one:

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #146 on: November 28, 2015, 04:24:29 AM »
Yeah nice find with the Bomber-escort conversion of a Boeing YB-29 Greg!
Anyone got more detailed pictures?
Was it a mock-up or did it actually fly?

M.A.D

Nothing yet - still investigating.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #147 on: November 28, 2015, 05:07:12 AM »
Here's an odd one:




That's a Tu-91 test attached to a Tu-4.

I found more pictures at the Prop & Jet forum:

http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/6-17-49#18152

It would be great if Musa (owner of Prop & Jet) produced a Tu-91. His resin kits are just amazing. There's a Unicraft Tu-91 which would require "just a bit" more work.

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2015, 04:04:15 AM »
An old idea:

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Re: Boeing B-29 Superfortress ideas and inspiration
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2015, 04:40:10 AM »
Some different armament options:





A little more info on these:

Extra armament had been fitted to the fourth YB-29 to test it as an escort fighter, like the B-40. Two .50s were mounted in a nose turret and in each of four side blisters. The top and bottom turrets were retained with a 20-mm gun added to the lower turret and a 37-mm gun in the tail, for a total of 22 guns.

Here's a photo:



One experimental B-29-25-BW tested in October 1944 replaced the remote-controlled system with two conventional Martin top turrets, two Sperry “ball” turrets underneath, a one-gun Emerson barbette on each side of the nose, and a manual gun at each side blister.

Some more photos:


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