Author Topic: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII  (Read 8292 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« on: April 11, 2012, 08:21:11 AM »
Hi folks,

A scenario mentioned a little bit elsewhere already, but now due for its own thread.

What if, just in WWI, Japan decided to fight alongside Britain against the Germans?  Some possible outcomes:

Japanese/British A6Ms escorting British Bombers to Berlin...no need for P-51...
Japanese G4M bombers operating alongside British bombers...
Japanese D3A "Val" dive bombers supporting BEF & French forces in Europe...
Japanese B5N Kates operating from British or Japanese carriers in Atlantic...

What else could happen?

Regards,

Greg
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 08:36:24 AM »
Perhaps the Japanese designs would benefit from Allied experience with regards to armour for starters.  I for one would hate to be flying around in a Betty when the Germans turned up.

Regards,

John
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John

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 09:09:33 AM »
You have to bend history and alliances a bit... but it can be done.
 
The existing non-aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin expands. Germany will take western Europe, Russia will take the east. Russian imperialism leads to the invasion of Manchuria. Chinese Communist flock to the Soviet banner, the Japanese counter-invade in support of Kuomintang forces.
 
America largely stays out of the war, isolationist policies play a large role in this decision. Tensions across the 49th parallel rise after HMCS Athabaskan hunts down and sinks DKM Atlantis, which was flying the US flag at the time. A USCG cutter which responds to Atlantis' radio calls for help is bluntly told to "Mind it's own bloody business!".
 
The stage is set for the next phase.

Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 07:39:57 AM »
With the US out of the war, they supply all sides - Allied & Axis with raw-materials & parts (good ol' Capitalism) but not complete aircraft, tanks etc (that would drag them into the war).  More manufacturing in Australia (tanks) & Sth Africa (aircraft) - Canada still builds Hampdens, Lancasters etc.
With so much extra sea traffic, the naval war steps up -- with no Pacific War, UK doesn't lose its far-east battleships so is in a better position to hunt the (many more) German Milch-cow submarines & merchantmen.

No Pacific War or Eastern Front, so more forces are available to fight in a bigger Western European war thus extending the war's time-frame (1939-1950) ?  Sth Africa & Australia take over most fighting against German & Italian forces in Nth Africa which lasts longer (1944) ?

P-40 is not built (Hawk-75 remains in production for USAAF till 1945) .... The Mustang (a British-commissioned design) is available with Merlin engine from the start --- or would it even be wanted vs more Spitfires built in Sth Africa, Canada & Japan ??  (factor in Air Min "not designed here" philosophy)
With no military incentive the B-17 doesn't evolve much & no B-24, B-26, Avenger etc etc - only UK / Japanese types.

The Hudson is a Canadian conversion of civil Lockheed 18s sold at cost+ in a secret deal with the (Canadian) manager of the Burbank facility.  German spies in the US knew something was up but couldn't find out just what.  A cover was that the Canadian Forestry Service was buying them to spot fires in an expected dry summer season.  Hudsons were flown to CFS in Canada wearing civil registration & CFS badges.  CFS helped to hide the number of aircraft bought by often repainting Hudsons written-off in training in their own markings (often with duplicate registration numbers) & parking them on conspicuous airports.

Avro Lincoln enters service in Feb. 1944.

Germany/Russia Pact means the T-34 isn't built as no need for it.  Hence no inspiration for the better ballistic shape of the Panther or KingTiger -- Russia supplies first the KV-1, then JS-I to Germany's Heavy Panzer troops instead.

Russian licence-built Pz-IV .....


The Sentinel Tank is built in Australia for Commonwealth forces as the Sherman doesn't exist (only the Lee/Grant).    Sentinel comes in 3 versions -- 6pdr, then 17pdr & the twin-25pdr for infantry support.  For their troops in Manchuria, Japan buys some 6pdrs for their "Heavy" tank units but take most of the "infantry-support" twin-25pdr production.

South Australia's Chulora Locomotive Works (Tanks) gets the Queen's "Royal Certificate" for best improved production rates in June 1942.  Due to this increased production, Tirpitz & Bismark are dispatched to the southern Indian Ocean to sink the convoys heading for Britain.  Bismark is torpedoed by Japanese aircraft based out of Perth, wrecking its rudder -- after a 3-day battle, she is sunk by HMAS Sydney & the Emperor Hirohito (Japanese-built sister-ship to Hood).

No US participation = no Atomic bomb.
Who wins the Second Great European War ??

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Offline upnorth

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 01:30:04 PM »
You have to bend history and alliances a bit... but it can be done.
 
The existing non-aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin expands. Germany will take western Europe, Russia will take the east. Russian imperialism leads to the invasion of Manchuria. Chinese Communist flock to the Soviet banner, the Japanese counter-invade in support of Kuomintang forces.
 


That's not too hard to imagine. From the Meiji Restoration in 1868, Japan and Tsarist Russia had their fair share of battles to determine influence over large sections of south east Asia. Any peace between Imperialist Japan and the Soviet Union would be a tenuous one at best I would think.

One thing to bear in mind, considering Japan's strong pre WWII militaristic and imperialistic mindset, is if a long term alliance could be maintained between them and Britain when it came to Japan actually respecting British territories in Asia.

Whatever you do to bend history for this story, you'd pretty much have to make the bend at 1868 or have the Sino-Japanese War or one of the Russo-Japanese wars come out differently.

By most every account, theimperialist mind set of pre WWII Japan was that of complete ethnic superiority. They wanted to exist at the same level of power as the major powers of the day, so building their empire was their main focus and they were quite despotic in the process. I have a feeling that any alliance between pre WWII Japan and Britain would be closer in nature to a non aggression treaty than a true alliance.

It would be a delicate alliance at best and I dare say doomed to collapse. Without provoking America into a war in the Pacific, there would really be no incentive for imerialist Japan to change their viewpoints in regards to their own ethnic superiority. As such, I think all hell would break loose on the Asian continent eventually with Britain trying to hold onto her colonies there while Japan and the Soviets were driving for control over it.

You just can't forget that Pre WWII Japan and post WWII Japan were very different places with very different mindsets. Night and day really.

it would take something like the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs to create that much of an attitude change. If those bombs didn't come from America, they'd probably be coming from the Soviets.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 05:06:40 PM »
Sentinel  --  17pdr

Something I already have in the works... ;)
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Offline Silver Fox

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 05:38:10 AM »
It's not a story thread that I would pursue, but I think you might get away with placing the historical break around the time of the Russian Revolution. If you assume a significant Japanese presence in Siberia in support of Tsarist forces, in exchange for concessions over Siberian territory, you have a significant motivation for animosity between Russia and Nippon.
 
I agree that any alliance between Britain and Japan is almost guaranteed to be one of convenience, the two nations lack significant joint interests for almost anything else.
 
For Japanese ethnic superiority I would suggest an official policy be promulgated by the Emporer, basically a graduated scheme where you have Japanese, Korean (ethnic Japanese/degenerate culture), Chinese, other asians, caucasians.... create a list and then basically work the list.

Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 11:39:21 AM »
Can you be a bit specific about time-frame and aircraft used by each side, Greg ?  Does the war start a bit earlier & end a bit later ?

Divide the years into early / mid / late segments & list a rationalized aircraft complement ...
ie:- Germany / Italy / Russia .... medium bomber - He-111, heavy bomber - Piaggio P.108.

RAF .... Spitfire as fighter (later replaced by Merlin-engined Tony ?) & Zero as longer-range low-level bomber escort ??
Where the Japanese excel is their flying training & experience so are a good match for the Luftwaffe crews who gained experience in Spain ....... Japanese are the best Spitfire squadrons in BoB.

Sturmovik becomes the Axis tank-buster.
             Third Battle of Knightsbridge, Nth Africa, August 1944 -- Commonwealth Sentinel 17pdrs vs German/Italian KV-1s.  Italian Sturmoviks take a heavy toll of Allied tanks .... (profile anyone ?)

Kawanishi "Emily" or Short Sunderland ???  no sense in producing two large flying-boat designs.
Kawanishi "Mavis" fills the role that the Catalina did.

Late war .... Ju-290 prepared for transport of troops in projected invasion of the UK - most converted to long-range bombers.  Pe-2 used instead of the Me-110 ?

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 04:46:22 PM »
I don't actually have no idea...I just provided the seed idea.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 02:35:31 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2012, 11:21:19 AM »
I don't actually have Ny idea...I just provided the seed idea.

           geeze, you get us all fired up then leave us floundering ??
Guess I'll have to start it off ....


1934 -- Hitler comes to power.
May 1938 -- the secret von Ribbentrop / Molotov Pact is signed.
July 1938 -- Germany annexes the Sudatenland.

August 1938 -- German panzers drive into Poland.  The plucky Polish Air Force puts up a good fight against the Luftwaffe but is outnumbered.  The Polish Army is overwhelmed by surprise, superior numbers and lack of organisation & leadership.

Chamberlain debates in the League of Nations but does nothing except gets a worthless piece of paper with Hitler's signature to be a good boy.  Chamberlain is deposed & Churchill becomes PM of Britain -- in accordance with their treaty with Poland, Churchill declares war on Germany.

In accordance with the von Ribbentrop / Molotov Pact, Russia starts licence-production of tanks for the German war effort -- a few T-28 & T-35 super-heavy multi-turreted tanks, with crews, are supplied to the Panzer Divisions.

Trouble in Eritrea caused by tribal uprising against the Italian Governor leads to a crack-down with the Italian Army basically invading its own colony.  German East Africa is sucked in to the escalating violence.
The Duetches Afrika Corps is set up & trained, ready to be deployed in case the African situation gets out of hand as expected -- Il Duce is clamouring for a new "Roman-Africa Empire".

October 1938 -- Russian troops enter Poland under a League of Nations agreement to oversee the withdrawal of German troops.  They remain there throughout the Western war as a "barrier to further German aggression".

November 1938 -- Germany annexes Alsace and digs-in for the winter.  French & Belgian governments ask Britain to send troops in case of invasion -- the RAF & BEF are dispatched leaving Britain largely undefended..

Japan, long Britain's ally & trade-partner, is keen to have a market for the large supply of materials from its Manchurian colonies.  Unfortunately, their military equipment is mostly deemed inferior to British equipment especially their Tanks.  Japanese aircraft are deemed to be roughly equal but lacking armour.
An agreement is signed for Japan to supply selected types of aircraft to bolster the RAF.  Japanese military leaders insist on providing the pilots too -- this escalates into a full-blown diplomatic declaration by Japan to join Britain in war with Germany.  This quashes any grumbles Britain may have on Japan's annexing of most of the Asian seaboard as far south as British interests in Singapore for their minerals.

Nov '38 - Jan '39 -- forces are built up in western Germany.  Japan ships aircraft & pilots to Britain.

Feb '39 -- German troops move west, invading northern France & southern Belgium.  French, Belgian & British troops fight a holding action but are driven back almost to the coast.  The Russian T-28 & T-35 heavy-tanks prove a handicap in the initial battles, being too slow to keep up.

March '39 -- Egypt is threatened by the troubles in Eritrea & German East Africa -- the British Colonial Army is reinforced by regular British troops causing the DAK to be sent from Germany.

The FBB (French/Belgian/British) gain small victories, pushing the German forces back.  French Char B.1 tanks do their bit taking a heavy toll of the light German tanks, halting the enemy in a line roughly north/south across France & Belgium.
Southern France declares itself a Neutral Independency under the Vichy regrime and doesn't take part in the war.  Vichy government asks both Northern France & Germany to help patrol their parts of the border to stop renegades from crossing to the north -- France refuses.

April '39 -- The land war bogs down with both sides preparing for a long fight.  The Russian T-28 & T-35 heavy-tanks now come into their own as mobile blockhouses spread across the Front.
Guderian is sent to command the DAK in Africa while Rommel inspects German interests in Tunisia.

Hitler orders the Luftwaffe to bomb Paris - but Goering convinces him that the central area (with its art treasures etc) is too valuable and to attack London's dockland instead as that's where the British troops & equipment for their war effort is shipping from.  These early-morning German bombing raids, cause the RAF to accede to Japanese aircraft & pilots being engaged in action over London as the RAF's own squadrons head for service with the FBB.

JAF Mitsubishi Zeros & RAF Hurricanes down approximately half of the first wave of German He-111s on April 13th "Black Friday" -- the higher Fw-200s escape with few losses as the Spitfires are too busy with the German fighter escort.  The Zeros wear RAF camouflage with black/white under-sides - the Japanese "meatball" has a blue surround with thin yellow outline to match the RAF roundel.  Due to their lack of sufficient armour, many more Japanese pilots than expected are wounded.
Several He-111s are shot down by Ms-406s & D.250s over France awaiting their return & about two dozen Me-109s crash in western France due to running out of fuel - their pilots are rounded up & interned in England ... but three make it back across the front to German lines.

These bombing-raids continue to be stepped up with Goering demanding that the Raf-Jaf be wiped from the skies, commencing the Battle of Britain.  In several early fighter vs fighter battles, few Zeros are lost to German Me-109s as they are more manoeuvrable & the pilots equally as experienced in combat.  This leads to the JAF being largely equipped with the few Spitfires while new RAF pilots get the Zeros until they gain some experience.  Like the Hurricane, the Zero's wide undercarriage means less landing accidents, initially a major problem in Spitfire units.

Bristol Blenheims make bombing attacks on German truck convoys supplying their forces -- many are shot down by the efficient German AA units making way for more JAF units to enter battle on the Continent -- these consist of "Lily" & "Nell" light-bombers.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 03:01:35 AM »
Interesting - let me know if you want this spun off into its own story thread.  I like the idea of those zeros in RAF markings of the period.

Of course another thread in this might be the Japanese incorporating British elements into their designs - e.g. Merlins instead of Kawasaki Ha-40s (Daimler-Benz DB 601s) in the Ki-61:


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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 06:05:39 AM »
For the German/Italian/Russian heavy bomber, would it really be the Piaggio P.108 or would the TB-7/Pe-8 have a shot, too?  of course, if things dragged on, you might see the Tupelov Project 64 developed instead of the B-29 getting cloned.  One item that would be interesting is the P.108 fitted with more powerful adn reliable radial engines of either German or Russian design.

Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 06:28:56 AM »
I like your Merlin Tonys, Greg - but the spinner-to-engine mating seems a bit strange ... think the original Spitty shape is more aesthetic.

I would think that, in a rational world like Whiff, all Italian aircraft would get BMW-801s then Jumo-213s  :)

It'll probably be a while before I can think up more on this line ..... RafJaf Zero profile under way :icon_fsm: ...

Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 01:40:30 PM »
at the start of the Battle of Britain, Japan's 5th Chutai flew A6M2 Zeros.



Later in the war they re-equipped with J2M Raidens.


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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 03:30:51 PM »
How about having the FAA equiped with Bristol Hercules powered Aichi Val dive bombers for the Battle of Taranto?

This would be followed on by Yokosuka Judy dive bombers, also Hercules powered.

This would see the Fairey Swordfish replaced earlier and the Fairey Barracuda cancelled at the prototype stage in favour of the company license producing the two Japanese designs for the FAA.
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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 04:31:33 PM »
Of course for an even more interesting twist, what if Japan still attacked Pearl Harbour despite being allied with the UK and having forces in Europe?  Where would this leave the UK?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 02:10:12 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2012, 05:08:59 PM »
With a two-front war, possibly: European Theatre and American Theatre.

I think the USN would be rather worse off, having to fight the IJN and R(x)N together. On the land, though, Canada would be fairly well fubared, unless the Anglo-Japanese alliance can convince Mexico to join in on their side (encourage them by offering to let them have their lost territories after the war...). That's the only thing I can see that'd prevent the US from overrunning Canada - if actual American territory is being invaded/occupied.

More interestingly, their could be an odd sort of arrangement made, in which the US remains neutral with regards to the UK (since the Empire is not involved with Japanese operations in the Pacific, and a victory for Hitler in Europe also not really in American interests)...
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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 08:18:41 PM »
Of course for an even more interesting twist, what if Japan still attacked Perarl Harbour despite being allied with the UK and having forces in Europe?  Where would this leave the UK?

WARNING: Orthogonal Timeline ahead

I think all countries with a common substantial northerly sovereignty requirements and climates such as Canada, Russia, Sweden, Norway, Iceland etc would have formed the Cohesive Arctic Countries Alliance, CACA (pronounced KAH-KAK)  and would pooh poohed membership with all other wimpy southerly alliances.

Hey, Killer Whales, Polar Bears, Elk, Reindeer,  Wolves have had a no-borders policy for 1,000s of years. Santa Claus however would have to pay a transit fee to fly over our airspace.

The UK would not have the RCAF. The Polar Bear would be in the the center of the CACAAF roundel. Just like the Canadian Toonie.

:-)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 08:26:20 PM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2012, 02:09:53 AM »
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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2012, 02:13:49 AM »
More interestingly, their could be an odd sort of arrangement made, in which the US remains neutral with regards to the UK (since the Empire is not involved with Japanese operations in the Pacific, and a victory for Hitler in Europe also not really in American interests)...

That's what I thought too.  The UK would be unwilling to tell the Japanese to take their forces and go home.  But at the same time, they would feel a need to support the USA, given their common history, cultures etc.  In many respects this would be a British nightmare.

It could make for some interesting Atlantic confrontations if Japanese ships were operating there with the British.  Maybe they would need to be confined to the Eastern Atlantic. 

Singapore could also be interesting here, since one would assume that neither it not Hong Kong would be attacked by the Japanese.

Hmmm, makes for a complicated, though interesting scenario...
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2012, 03:06:10 AM »

Singapore could also be interesting here, since one would assume that neither it not Hong Kong would be attacked by the Japanese.



As I said in my first post to this thread; the mind set of imperialist Japan would make a few unpleasant, and unthinkable, things quite possible if the war dragged on long enough.

I highly doubt the British held territories in Asia would be safe from Japanese annexation if things went on too long. Lots of natural resources, strategically important geography; lots of temptation for an aspiring empire.

Two island nations, one with a well established empire and the other trying to build one. Both with heavy industrial bases and the need to import raw materials to  keep the gears turning.....

You wanna bet they won't step on each other's toes eventually?
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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2012, 03:50:04 AM »
Quite probably.  However, maybe as part of their alliance, Britain and Japan establish a trading pact whereby Japan is provided much of the critical supplies they wanted...and in return Britain gets arms ( from factories well outside the range of German intervention) and forces to help fight...
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Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2012, 08:50:46 AM »
I'm keen to keep the US out of WW2 as their industrial strength makes it too easy to win .... I want the war to carry on with some to-and-froing.

1770's -- tea-drinking in the new colony of America plummeted in a fit of nationalism -- the Boston Tea Party & War of Independence were such humiliating defeats for Britain that it never got over its animosity.  Britain had severed all contact with the USA, only deigning to buy US-made parts in the 2nd Great War under severe need.

Japan needs to find a supply of oil and due to America's indifference to their State, the people of Alaska decide to become an independent state of Canada, adopting the PolarBear in a red circle as their emblem -- Inuit lore proclaims the PolarBear as being at the center of the Circle of Life.
This fits neatly with Japan's need for oil & gold reserves, creating a good trade & diplomatic match.

How about having the FAA equiped with Bristol Hercules powered Aichi Val dive bombers for the Battle of Taranto?

This would be followed on by Yokosuka Judy dive bombers, also Hercules powered.

This would see the Fairey Swordfish replaced earlier and the Fairey Barracuda cancelled at the prototype stage in favour of the company license producing the two Japanese designs for the FAA.


good idea, upnorth -- the Herc was the only good British radial.

As a replacement of the Blenheim a slightly larger light-bomber is in development but the Bristol Taurus engines are causing worry so it's decided to replace them with Mitsubishi radials.  By the time this "super-Blenheim" is ready it has become a torpedo-bomber for attacking the German Navy's heavy ships which make dash-runs through the English Channel to disrupt the Allied supply-line -- it is named "Beaufort" and put into limited production, then cancelled in favour of readily available Japanese designs.


Tank-destroyer North African theatre...

Offline apophenia

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2012, 10:44:28 AM »
Interesting ideas there. I went with an FAA 'Kate' for the Taranto attack.

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Offline raafif

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2012, 04:53:52 AM »
As they have many lakes, neutral Switzerland purchased fifty A6M2n "Rufe" floatplanes as part of their air-interception force to counter the many German & Russian "strays" over their territory.  During the war they forced down 157 German, 62 Russian and (late in the war) 20 Allied aircraft that drifted, either intentionally or by accident, over Switzerland.


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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2012, 09:53:20 AM »
Curtiss/Kyushu J7W  Shinden??
XP-55 developments?
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2012, 01:47:55 PM »
My take on a British Rufe and Zero (sort of  ;) )

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Offline upnorth

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Re: Japan fights on Allied Side during WWII
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 11:41:17 PM »
I was doing a bit more reading up on the history of Japan and their foreign relations from the Meiji Restoration to WWII and what seems to stand out is that Japan pretty much was on the good side of Britain for the bulk of the time.

Japan was an allied power in WWI and remained on decent terms with Britain into the interwar period.

The critical events that occured that allowed alignment of real world Japan with the Axis occured during the 1930s amid financial crisis, growing military influence over political matters in the country and a series of coup and assassination attempts against the Japanese government.

If you could take Prime minister Fumimaro Konoe and his foreign minister, Yosuke Matsuoka out of the picture somehow so they weren't in positions to influence Japan down a road of totalitiarianism, expansionism, nationalism and alliance with Germany and Italy then Japan might have been able to stay allied.

A real key to keeping Japan allied would have been to limit the political influence of the military, which was major.

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