Author Topic: Stuka musings  (Read 10807 times)

Offline upnorth

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Stuka musings
« on: April 08, 2012, 05:05:49 PM »
Hello all:

I'm well aware that the Stuka design was pretty much obsolete early on in the war and the aircraft was easy meat for allied fighters if it travelled without escort.

However, when I think about the aircraft and it's mission, I can see a design that could be cleaned up and perhaps married to a turboprop for use as a COIN platform in post war Latin America.

So let's say, for the sake of example, that an employee of the nationalized Junkers firm who was more loyal to Hugo Junkers ideals than those of the Nazis, flees Germany with a copy of the Stuka blueprints and technical notes and gets to South America with them and revises them.

While the basic slim fuselage and gull wing planform are kept, several refinements are made within those dimensions:

Much reduced weight through lightened structure and reduced armor
Wings cleaned up and retracting main gear incorporated
Revised cockpit area with new canopy of much reduced framing, single and two seat variants made
Early versions replaced Jumo engine with piston engine more suited to COIN mission
Later versions were turboprop powered

Those are just a few refinements I've thought of putting in the design while thinking about how to smooth out the Stuka, and still keep the general Stuka look, over the years.

So, what do you all make of that idea?

What else could be done with a Stuka?
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 06:54:31 PM »
The later D & G models were quite a bit 'smoother' than the earlier varants for starters.  The wing would be along the lines of the F4U I suspect for retracting gear.

Regards,

John
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 07:02:06 PM »
Yes, that's what I felt too.

I have tried at least once in the past to marry the inner sections of the Corsair wing to the outer section of the Stuka wing. They join up pretty well but cleaning up the back edge of the Stuka wing proved a challenge.

If I try the project again, I'll likely use the same starting point of the Academy 1/72 Ju-87 Kanonenvogel and the Smer reissue of the Heller Corsair, both of which I can get pretty cheaply.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 12:51:53 AM »
I'd love to do a D model with a cargo pannier in UPS markings.     
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 03:41:16 AM »
A few musings - some might match the musings above (one won't):






Regards,

Greg
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Offline raafif

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 07:13:30 AM »
a turbo-prop engine would go nice !!

but to do away with those sexy spats & the dive-siren is HERESY !! :(

Offline apophenia

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 11:24:48 AM »
My go at a South American Stuka: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.270

I'm thinking that the most plausible engine is the Hispano-Suiza 12Y (perhaps brought in from Spain?). Postwar, the HS12Y could be replaced by Arsenal 12s (French Jumo 213s) before moving on to turboprops (Turmos?).

The original canopy would be a Stuka-style birdcage. I've replaced that with a postwar mod using Sea Fury trainer hoods. Maybe go to T-33 for the turboprop version?
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »
Like those new looks for a Stuka.  Cool  8)

Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 02:32:50 PM »
Greg, I quite like the second and third profiles you have.

Apophenia, the Argentine Stuka looks fantastic; just about what I'd imagined for an early variant. Perhaps the Turbomeca Aztazou could work as the turboprop successor.

I think the tail unit still needs some cleaning up, a retracting tail wheel and enough internal bracing to make the external brace unrequired.
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 10:03:37 PM »
 I'll suggest a bit of backtracking. Keeping the Anton style wheel pants, scale-o-rama the beast into
 a be-all and end all of close support. Manned weapons stations on the leading edge of the wheels, ala' 
 the Airacuda, perhaps a gondola, a tail gun ( manned, of course ) wing panel bomb bays, for a literal
 rain of small AP bombs, all capped off with a 1/144 greenshouse on a 1/72, or ( dare I say it? ) a
 1/48 th scale airframe...and maybe contra-props.

Offline sequoiaranger

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See Stuka
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 07:44:37 AM »
I took a Stuka top fuselage, mated it to a Suisei underfuselage (and cooler), and then put Corsair wings on it. German Pacific Fleet markings (swastika inside the Hinomaru)!

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 07:46:24 AM by sequoiaranger »
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Offline raafif

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 11:21:37 AM »
you got a side-on photo of that, sequoiaranger ??

Combine Greg's different canopies & minor changes to the nose = Tubo-Stuka


looks like a good crop-duster !
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 11:38:23 AM by raafif »

Offline AXOR

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 04:38:34 PM »
Hmmm interesting  :-*
Craig I'd love to see more pictures of your model.
raafif,I like your turboprop version,here's my interpretation.

Alex
Alex

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: See Stuka
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 05:21:52 PM »
I took a Stuka top fuselage, mated it to a Suisei underfuselage (and cooler), and then put Corsair wings on it. German Pacific Fleet markings (swastika inside the Hinomaru)!




That looks great.  Any more photos?
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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 05:23:13 PM »
Perhaps the Turbomeca Aztazou could work as the turboprop successor.


That would look cool.  Maybe also a similarly powered turbo Fw-189?
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Offline sequoiaranger

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Pics of "See Stuka"?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 11:28:08 PM »
AXU, raafif, and GTX-->more pictures?<

Actually, I do NOT have more pictures (that was an old one c. 1985), and the actual model has broken landing gear and several other broken parts from a move that have not yet been repaired. However, the "top", "tail", and "sides" of the See Stuka are simply an un-modified Ju-87 D. From a viewpoint anywhere but the front (my pic here) it looks like a generic Stuka with rounded wing tips (pilfered from a Corsair). The fuselage is "deeper" because of the Suisei bottom which encloses the bomb much like a Helldiver (or a Suisei!!). The REALLY OLD (c. 1963) LS kit of the Suisei had working bomb-bay doors and was inappropriately narrower than a proper Suisei should be (the Fujimi one is superb! I made my single-seat "stealth" recce version-"Yamagumo"- out of that one) but mated PERFECTLY to the Matchbox Stuka I used. The main landing gear is Corsair, too, but I paid tribute to the Stuka by having the landing gear DOORS in the approximate shape of the spats!
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 11:57:35 PM »
Wow! Some great ideas and inspiration since I last checked in!

That See Stuka is quite something. :)
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Offline raafif

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 07:58:44 AM »
Maybe also a similarly powered turbo Fw-189?


here's such a beast .....
http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=40368.0
     pretty ugly tho !



Updated tail on AXU's mod of my Turbo-Stuka ...



Where do we go from here ??
           swept-wings ..... tail-plane half-way up the fin ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:01:31 AM by raafif »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 08:02:33 AM »
Maybe also a similarly powered turbo Fw-189?


here's such a beast .....
http://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=40368.0
     pretty ugly tho !



Hmmm...haven't made up my mind yet.  I was thinking of something less radical though:  really just a standard Fw-189 but with Turboprops.
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Offline raafif

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 08:05:02 AM »
but they're UGLY turbo-props, Greg !!
            and that canopy too !! :-X

    As I've said of several stewardesses over the years ..... "nice tail tho" ;)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 08:10:04 AM »
I agree re the cockpit...but then again sometimes ugly has a beauty all of its own! ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 11:17:13 AM »
For my take on the Turbo-Stuka, I concluded that a Dart was around the right period and power. I added a little to the fin but I like the new tail on your's raafif!

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Offline sequoiaranger

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See Stuka Pics
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 03:40:29 PM »
Actually, I discovered my old See Stuka had only a missing wheel (which I found), so....I have two pics here:

One, a side/top view...



And this up the front view showing the old LS Suisei bomb-bay. I goofed up the "Spiralschnause"--I may just retrofit it (but for now...):

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 05:15:31 PM »
I love the idea of a stuka with a bomb bay!!
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2012, 05:38:03 PM »
I love the idea of a stuka with a bomb bay!!

Yes! That in itself cleans the lines up a good bit, doesn't it?
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Offline sequoiaranger

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Stuka W/bomb-bay
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2012, 11:03:27 PM »
>>I love the idea of a stuka with a bomb bay!!
Yes! That in itself cleans the lines up a good bit, doesn't it?<<

That was kind of the point---take the "Stuka" look and take some of the angles and "awkwardness" out of it. The Suisei provided the smooth ventral contours and integrated lines from the intake back, and the Corsair wings still had that "cranked" look but gained "softer" contours, recessed oil coolers, and allowed retractable landing gear. The only other change was elimination of the "retro" support strut for the tailplane (taken off the later Bf-109s as well). 

Also the idea was that this hybrid could be a "common" dive bomber for all Axis carrier forces in the Pacific (OF COURSE there were German carriers in the Pacific!!  :)  ). The Suisei was the fastest plane in Pacific skies for a while, but could not carry a larger bomb load than the fixed-landing gear "Val" it replaced (other than the bolted-on larger bombs on Kamikaze Suiseis). The Stuka was slow, but could carry a whopper bomb. So...cleaning up the Stuka made it fast enough to please the Japanese, and it could carry larger bombs, too!

PS--one of my future whifs will be a "Suisei-Kai"--a slightly larger version of the Suisei that WILL carry larger bombs (basically a Ryusei "Grace" retro-fitted with a low-wing and Suisei front end and cockpit.)
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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 05:17:27 AM »
Out of interest, the original contenders for what became the Stuka:



I actually find the He118 (seen below again) the most attractive.

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 06:12:18 AM »
you have to wonder how much the He118 shares in ancestry with the He70?  An up-engined He70 might make for another good competitor.

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 07:13:05 AM »
I have also always liked the Ju87C:






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Offline Geoff

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2012, 06:52:49 AM »
A simple colour change.

Offline sequoiaranger

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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2012, 02:33:51 PM »
Technically, the He-177 FOUR-ENGINED BOMBER was a "Stuka", as it was "told" it would be used as a dive-bomber!!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:38:44 PM by sequoiaranger »
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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2012, 06:24:37 PM »
Simple but effective.
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Offline arc3371

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2012, 09:38:19 AM »
Not really a Stuka but...


Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2012, 10:54:06 AM »
Fabric wings.  I bought the Italeri kit when it was first released with the intention of converting it to the cloth winged variant. ;D ;D :o :-\ :-* >:D >:D
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Offline tsrjoe

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2012, 05:14:24 PM »
a really nice winter Stuka model Geoff, iv always had a hankering to build the Special Hobby A kit in pre war dazzle scheme just for fun.

An almost real what if too, the Stuka was one aircraft specifically mentioned during Hitlers visit to Mannerhiem, indeed theres a famous photograph of the two leaders with a presentation model of the aircraft on the Finnish leaders desk, a birthday gift from der Furher along with a specially fitted out Steyr command car

German operated Stukas were based in Finland during the Continuation war, so again a very plausible 'might have been'

cheers, Joe

Offline Geoff

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2012, 03:46:13 AM »
Thank you.

Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2012, 01:57:46 AM »
For those who may not be following my "Stealing the Stuka" tale in the stories section, here's a little sketch I did yesterday of a cleaned up Stuka descendant from Argentina; the FMA Garza:

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Offline tc2324

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2012, 11:46:27 PM »
Another Jap Stuka.....


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Offline tc2324

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012, 11:54:58 PM »
nearly forgot my `Jet` one.......


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Offline raafif

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2012, 01:38:39 AM »
the Jap Stuka would be a nice model to do -- can we have a colour pic ? the green with silver chips would look very fetching on this airframe.

I was recently into doing the RW captured US fighters (Corsair & Hellcat etc).

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2015, 03:21:59 AM »

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2015, 05:00:46 AM »
Random idea:  Ilmavoimat Ju-87 with skis
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2015, 05:25:45 AM »
Random idea:  Ilmavoimat Ju-87 with skis
In winter camouflage, of course.

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2015, 05:43:11 AM »
Well lookie here:

« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 05:47:00 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2015, 10:16:12 AM »
Add skis and overpaint the green with white?

Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2015, 12:51:56 PM »
Adding skis to a Stuka would be a breeze. Just use spatless gear legs and make the ski attachment points to fit the existing wheel forks.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2015, 02:31:30 AM »
Adding skis to a Stuka would be a breeze. Just use spatless gear legs and make the ski attachment points to fit the existing wheel forks.


Or just buy a kit... ;)



This gives an idea of how the skis look:


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Offline upnorth

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2015, 02:39:45 AM »
But where's the fun in that?  ;D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2015, 05:57:04 AM »
How about some ski-equipped Finnish Stukas escorted by "volunteer" Swedish ski-equipped CR-42s?

Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2015, 01:51:18 AM »
How about some ski-equipped Finnish Stukas escorted by "volunteer" Swedish ski-equipped CR-42s?

Or some Gladiators.





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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2017, 03:24:53 AM »
Has anyone done a Ju-87C in a low contrast two-tone grey splinter rather than the standard Luft splinter?
By low contrast I mean the two shades would be close in value, rather than a light/mid grey and a dark grey.
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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2017, 03:35:15 AM »
Has anyone done a Ju-87C in a low contrast two-tone grey splinter rather than the standard Luft splinter?
By low contrast I mean the two shades would be close in value, rather than a light/mid grey and a dark grey.


Do you have an example of the colours you mean Jon?

There is something like this scheme that Richard did a few years back - I think it would look good on a Sea Stuka, though if I read your post correctly, you want something different:


« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 03:47:36 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 04:11:12 AM »
Well something value wise along the lines of the greens used in regular splinter cammo on seaplanes:
72/73 over 65 (dark green and dark grey-green), little contrast between the greens.
But in two greys similar to fighters 41-44 With 74/75 over 76.

Perhaps along the lines of 74V.1 and 66 over 77.

http://www.plasticmodelsworld.com/sites/default/files/Articles/2014_03/rlm.pdf
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 04:14:16 AM by jcf »
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Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline AXOR

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2018, 03:09:04 AM »
Alex

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2018, 10:15:36 AM »
Out of interest, the original contenders for what became the Stuka:



I actually find the He118 (seen below again) the most attractive.




Wow Greg, that picture of the prototype He118V1 is impressive, and emphasises the clean line of its retractable landing gear well! I'm assuming by the drawings of the designs submitted to the RLM 'Stuka' requirements, that the He118 was the only design submission with retractable landing gear?

M.A.D

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2018, 10:28:00 AM »
Out of interest, the original contenders for what became the Stuka:



I actually find the He118 (seen below again) the most attractive.




Wow Greg, that picture of the prototype He118V1 is impressive, and emphasises the clean line of its retractable landing gear well! I'm assuming by the drawings of the designs submitted to the RLM 'Stuka' requirements, that the He118 was the only design submission with retractable landing gear?

M.A.D


Oh, and on further study, the only design with an internal bomb bay!!😮😋

M.A.D

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2018, 03:35:31 AM »
Some enterprising soul could probably convert the He 118 out of He 70, perhaps?

Offline jcf

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2018, 12:43:36 PM »
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2018, 01:56:13 PM »
Some enterprising soul could probably convert the He 118 out of He 70, perhaps?
Have to move back seat position forward, but it would be doable.  I think you'd also need to re-engine the He-70.  There are some temptations there, particularly if you could fit a suitable powerful engine.

Offline jcf

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2018, 10:19:03 AM »
Some enterprising soul could probably convert the He 118 out of He 70, perhaps?

Have to move back seat position forward, but it would be doable.  I think you'd also need to re-engine the He-70.  There are some temptations there, particularly if you could fit a suitable powerful engine.


Like a Kestrel?  ;D


"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Stuka musings
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2018, 10:21:26 AM »
Or a Merlin, they supposedly flew on that testbed, too.  I was rather thinking of the engine, propeller, and cowling of a MC.202 and fitted a nose radiator as was trialed (no advantage over the standard position, so never put into production).