Author Topic: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'  (Read 204 times)

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Moderator
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« on: September 23, 2026, 08:36:09 AM »
Another not-an-official-entry post. Over in the Inspiration thread, the OQF 3.7" AA on Ram Mounting came up. The  Canadian Army's ATDB originally designated that '94mm-on-a-Ram' as their Project 14A. From that, I decided to do a hypothetical rendering of the unbuilt Project 14B - ATDB's 40 mm Bofors L/60 AA gun on the Ram cruiser tanks hull.

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=11786.msg239023#msg239023

Being unbuilt, the Project 14B is a whif of sorts. But I wanted to go further out there ...

RW: On behalf of the Canadian Army Over-Seas, the Army Technical Development Board (ATDB) put forward a ‘3in SP Ram’ - a hydrid of Ram 'chassis' and proposed US M10 tank destroyer turret and armament. This concept was eclipsed by the OQF 3.7" AA on Ram Mounting (aka Project 14A) which, in Maj Gen F. F. Worthington's conception, would combined anti-tank and anti-aircraft roles. Project 14A was seen as having sufficient merit for ATDB to approve a prototype conversion.

WHIF: Noting the time involved in producing Project 14A as the OQF 3.7" AA on Ram Mounting, the Canadian Army Over-Seas requested an interim vehicle to fill the tank-hunting role. The CAOS noted that new production of the 1894-era QF 12-pounder 12 cwt was about to commence at the Ogden Shops in Calgary, AB, for RCN use. This piece had the advantage of being considerably lighter than the OQF 3.7" requested - the OQF 3.7" ordnance (ie: breech and barrel) weighed over 3,900 pounds versus only 1,344 pounds for the QF 12-pounder 12 cwt.

Of course, the lower weight of the QF 12-pounder 12 cwt came at a performance cost. The 12-pounder's muzzle velocity  was only 2,200 ft/s (670 m/s) against the OQF 3.7" Mk III was 2,598–2,670 ft/s. The horizontal range of the QF 12-pounder 12 cwt was actually slightly superior to the new gun. But shell weight was less - the former firing a 76.2 mm QF 12.5 lb shell out to 3.79 miles horizontally while the OQF 3.7" fired its 94 mm 28 lb projectile out to 3.5 miles. However, the shell weight was more important - tanks rarely being engaged at extreme distances.

With the CAOS concept approved by new Director of Artillery, Colonel Stephen Morres, the ATDB began preparing its Project 14C based on the Ram I hull. Actual conversion work was performed at Montreal Locomotive Works using a former coastal defence 12-pounder that was almost 50 years old. A new gun mount straddled the Ram's drive shaft allowing a traverse of 12° to 15° to either side. A simple 'dog house' shelter was provided for the gun crew with a more substantial gun shield set forward. [1]

With the utility of concept was proven, MLW began limited production of Project 14C as the '3in self-propelled, anti-tank gun, Cougar'. [2] The new vehicle began equipping Royal Canadian Artillery units in Britain in early 1943. First into action were the Cougar's of the 1st Field Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery during OP Husky, the invasion of Sicily on 09 July 1943. These remained frontline vehicles until US-supplied M10 Wolverine tank destroyers began to arrive in time for the Normandy invasion.

In the meantime, Col Morres' replacement as DArty, Col W. E. Van Steenburgh had concluded that US supplies of M10 Wolverines would be adequate for RCA requirements. As such, Cougar production was ended by the late Autumn of 1943 and development of the Project 14D - a revived Ram/M10 hybrid - was cancelled alogether. Indeed no prototype was ever completed. [3]

____________________________________

[1] This superstructure could have been lower still but that would have required somehow also lowering the vehicle's drive shaft.

[2] RW, the name Cougar was applied to the prototype Ram flame-thrower type. That 'Ronson Ram' flame-thrower variant would enter Canadian Army service as the Badger.

[3] GMC, the makers of the M10, preferred to cooperate with its GM Canada subsidiary (rather than MLW). However, Col Van Steenburgh saw no benefit to transporting incomplete Ram 'chassis' from Montreal west to GM's Regina plant for fitting out - only to be transported east again for shipment overseas.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2026, 08:43:10 AM by apophenia »
"Well, Tom Thompson came paddling past, I'm pretty sure it was him ..."

Offline Kerick

  • Reportedly finished with a stripper...
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2026, 03:09:56 AM »
That gun might be 50 years old but as long as it works……
Is there a model of such a gun? The whiff combo would be an easy build.

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Moderator
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2026, 04:00:38 AM »
That gun might be 50 years old but as long as it works…

Exactly. And obviously the RCN thought that its compromises were still worth the effort of putting the 12 cwt back into production  :smiley:

... Is there a model of such a gun? The whiff combo would be an easy build.

There are mentions of a 1/32 scale 12-pounder 3D print but images that I've seen were all of small, game scales. I would imagine that such files are scaleable (although Frank3k would know better.

That said, the shapes involved in the QF 12-pounder 12 cwt, suggest that a suitable looking piece might be cobbled together from parts.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2026, 04:02:55 AM by apophenia »
"Well, Tom Thompson came paddling past, I'm pretty sure it was him ..."

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2026, 07:50:52 AM »
 :smiley:

No reason why it can’t be an official entry I would think
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Kerick

  • Reportedly finished with a stripper...
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2026, 08:35:27 AM »
Gaming style pieces can lack in detail but I suppose that depends on the maker.
I made the Sherman with the 90mm gun so this should be plausible.

Offline Buzzbomb

  • Low Concentration Span, oft wanders betwixt projects
  • Accurate Scale representations of fictional stuff
    • Club and my stuff site
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 06:43:08 AM »
That gun might be 50 years old but as long as it works……
Is there a model of such a gun? The whiff combo would be an easy build.

Really no different to the Churchill Gun Carrier using a WW1 3 Inch Anti Aircraft gun, so totally plausible.

Put it in a casement, then no need to have the entire gun.

And yes.. make it an official entry, this is good stuff on the RAM

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Moderator
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 10:20:00 AM »
Really no different to the Churchill Gun Carrier using a WW1 3 Inch Anti Aircraft gun, so totally plausible...

Cheers, Brian. My first thought was re-using the 3-inch AA. Then I saw how much lighter the 12-pounder was. Only then did I realise that the 12-pounder had been put back into production in Canada during WW2. Who knew?

Put it in a casement, then no need to have the entire gun.

That's true. I'm imagining something that looks a bit like the M3 Grant's casement ... but centralised.
"Well, Tom Thompson came paddling past, I'm pretty sure it was him ..."

Offline Old Wombat

  • "We'll see when I've finished whether I'm showing off or simply embarrassing myself."
  • "Define 'interesting'?"
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 11:42:18 AM »
That's true. I'm imagining something that looks a bit like the M3 Grant's casement ... but centralised.

But where does the driver sit?  ???

Giving the driver somewhere to sit was the reason that the M3 Lee/Grant had its casement gun to the right (plus it loaded from the left).

Although, maybe not having the driver seated centrally (as per the M3 Lee/Grant*) would give you more room to bring the gun across closer to the centre-line.




[*: This US habit of giving everything the same alpha-numeric can get very annoying! ... M3 Light tank (Stuart), M3 Medium Tank (Lee/Grant), M3 Submachine gun, M3 Machine gun .50 cal aircraft ...  :-X ]
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Buzzbomb

  • Low Concentration Span, oft wanders betwixt projects
  • Accurate Scale representations of fictional stuff
    • Club and my stuff site
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 03:38:37 PM »
The RAM driver is on the right, it all worked out for the Sexton without modification.



Delete 25Pounder, insert 12 Pounder, with a closed top. Or... 17 Pounder ?

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Moderator
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Project 14C = A Ram Tank-based 'Panzerjager'
« Reply #9 on: Today at 04:24:02 AM »
The RAM driver is on the right, it all worked out for the Sexton without modification.

Exactly. On US vehicles, the driver was usually on the left (directly in the way of the gunner). [1]

The beauty of RH drive vehicles like the Sexton is that the gunner can be seated well forward on the left. The commander sits behind the gunner, the loader is positioned behind the driver.

Delete 25Pounder, insert 12 Pounder, with a closed top. Or... 17 Pounder ?

When available, the 17-pounder would be a great mod/upgrade. Lots more muzzle velocity there!

_______________________________

[1] The M3 Grant/Lee are the oddities here - inheriting their central driver's position from the M2 Medium tank. I assume that was to maximise visibility. Height was no object (since turret baskets must clear the driveshaft in any case).
"Well, Tom Thompson came paddling past, I'm pretty sure it was him ..."