Author Topic: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles  (Read 11129 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« on: March 21, 2012, 05:00:08 PM »
Wikipedia - M3 and M5 Stuart Light Tanks

Click to view larger image

(Image source: Wikipedia

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I was pursuing an idea to mount the M8 Scott 75mm Howitzer Motor Carriage turret on the M113 Australian Army Fire Support Vehicle.  Both kits are quite old and have a lot of potential for modification.  I discovered that the M8 HMC turret will fit on the M113 FSV hull but it requires some major surgery to the ring in order to make it fit.  This was not the case for the Saladin turret from the M113 FSV fitting on the M5 (M8 HMC) Stuart hull.  It drops right in and there is no interference with the rear engine deck and the turret.  The resulting mock up was then imaged to share the idea here. 









So if anyone is in search of a quick and very easy modeling project involving to rather ancient Tamiya kits this might be just what you are looking for. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:02:23 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 06:36:32 PM »
Well, the Germans did it with the Hetzer (light tank into TD) so that's plausible.  The rear-mount engine has to be a bonus for that reason alone.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 08:51:24 PM »
My gosh, that Saladin turret on a Stuart hull is brilliant!  Well done, I can't believe it wasn't done before.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 01:23:32 AM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type
 
There was an anti-tank gun motor carriage based on the Stuart hull that had the engine mounted forward and the ordnance mounted at the rear of the hull.  Actually several variations on that theme but nothing that looked like a StuG Hetzer. 

I wonder what it will take to add HVSS to the Stuart hull to give it a different look.  The wider tracks would be a good thing for reducing ground pressure even further. 

Another possibility might be to try and fit the M24 Chaffee turret to the M5 Stuart hull. 

My gosh, that Saladin turret on a Stuart hull is brilliant!  Well done, I can't believe it wasn't done before.

Yes, it was an accident of sorts as it just fell into place without issue.  I had been focusing on the M8 HMC turret and trying to make that fit on the M113 FSV when I realized I had another whif staring me in the face with that Saladin turret on the Stuart hull. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:30:52 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 02:47:10 AM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type


They built a STUG type self-propelled gun on the M3 chassis, the T18 GMC:


The open-topped T82 105mm was also built:


... and pre-war the 75mm T3 on the M1A1 Combat Car chassis:



Also (pedant mode on) the STUG (Sturmgeschütze) were self-propelled assault guns, not purpose designed
'tank-destroyers' (Jagdpanzer), some models were used in that role when necessary but that was not the intent.
In the STUGs the gun was mounted toward the center of the vehicle, not forward like the Jagdpanzer and Hetzer,
(Jagdpanther is its own, unique animal).
Note that on the T18 the gun is roughly in the center fore-and-aft, and offset to the right. The small size
(if you ever get a chance to climb around one, do it, they are incredibly tight inside) of the Stuart and the
arrangement of the drive-train (mid rear-engine/front-drive) and short hull gives a designer few options,
a cutaway that shows the problems:


In the non-turreted 3" TD designs built, T56 and T57, the engine was moved forward and the gun mounted
to the rear.

T56

T57

While based on the 38(t), the Hetzer had a redesigned and enlarged hull, a Stuart based 'Hetzer-ish'
jagdpanzer, would also need an enlarged hull, in particular it would need to be longer. Also a pancake
engine wouldn't go amiss.

My own long stalled M3A3 with Vulcan:

It has been painted, but I just realized I have no newer pics of it, I'll get a couple and post later.

In closing, the M3A3 is by far the best looking of the family, the raised rear deck of the M5 just looks kluged.  ;)
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 03:30:08 AM »
My own long stalled M3A3 with Vulcan:

It has been painted, but I just realized I have no newer pics of it, I'll get a couple and post later.

Nice work Jon, looking forward to seeing more images of this so hurry up and take some more pictures :)

In closing, the M3A3 is by far the best looking of the family, the raised rear deck of the M5 just looks kluged.  ;)

I would agree with you there, it does look a bit odd. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 06:09:33 AM »
There were some exceptions to the rule regarding the placement of main guns within the Jagdpanzer families, of course.  Not all were forward mounted.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

  • Kitbasher extroinadaire
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I hope that's not the sound he makes...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 07:24:19 AM »
As far as the Sherman HVSS on the M3/M5 hull goes......... Not sure how well it would fit. I have George Bradford's scale plans book of American armor of W.W.2. I will check those plans.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 09:11:46 AM »
There were some exceptions to the rule regarding the placement of main guns within the Jagdpanzer families, of course.  Not all were forward mounted.

Regards,

John

If you mean the Marder series, Hornisse/Nashorn, Elefant, Jagdpanther and similar, they were classified
as Panzerjager rather than Jagdpanzer. Tank-Hunter rather than Hunting-Tank.
The Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer and Jagpanzer VI Jagdtiger were the only vehicles so named,
and the Jadgtiger was the only one of the three with a center mounted weapon.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
I would have thought the Jagdpanther was quite obviously a Jagdpanzer as it's weapon was forward mounted.

Either way, both the Panzerjagers and Jagdpanzers had a broadly similar role, that is anti-tank.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 03:30:01 PM »


Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.

John, I didn't create the naming difference that was the original owners.  ;)



"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 07:58:22 PM »
The Germans do/did like to think up rather convoluted names.  I particularly like the title "Herr Professor Doktor" which is rather grandiose.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Rafael

  • El capitán del Cartón
  • Head of the Venezuelan Brigade
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 08:38:51 PM »
Lovely. I would like to see this in wheeled configuration :-*

Rafa
I don't take life seriously. I'm not getting out of it alive anyways.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 12:29:28 AM »
Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.


Thanks Jon, that little M3A3 hull looks great.  So much better than the Tamiya M5/M8 hull that I am using at the moment.  The Tamiya M8 HMC  kit hull does not feature the overhead hatches which certainly make a difference in overall appearance. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 02:13:45 AM »


Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.

John, I didn't create the naming difference that was the original owners.  ;)


I don't know why but that has a crazed US Civil War or WWI look to it...maybe even something Turtledove...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 07:01:36 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

  • Kitbasher extroinadaire
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I hope that's not the sound he makes...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 07:12:55 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
I have both,but not access to them right now.I will let you know asap.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 08:19:54 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
I have both,but not access to them right now.I will let you know asap.

Thanks Chad.  Curious to see if the Lee or Grant turret can fit the Stuart hull without too much alteration.  It would make for a slightly different looking Stuart. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 02:24:28 PM »
Turret ring diameters:
M3/M5 Light: 46.75"
M3 Medium: 54.5"

According to the weight figures the Grant was about a 1,000 pounds heavier than the M3 'Lee',
which is not surprising as the Grant turret was larger.

Either turret would be too heavy for the Stuart chassis.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 11:45:28 PM »
Turret ring diameters:
M3/M5 Light: 46.75"
M3 Medium: 54.5"

According to the weight figures the Grant was about a 1,000 pounds heavier than the M3 'Lee',
which is not surprising as the Grant turret was larger.

Either turret would be too heavy for the Stuart chassis.


Thanks Jon, that information just makes it all that more appealing to build :)

Damn the reality! 

Guess I will be shopping for a Grant or Lee though I prefer the turret used on the Grant since it does not have that silly little machine gun cupola for the vehicle commander. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 12:32:02 PM »
Is there any company that manufactures 1/35 conversion kit that turns a Stuart light tank into a M8 HMC (i.e. a turret-only kit)?

It would be of great use to what is quite possibly gonna be the only plastic/resin model project I will ever do in my life other than Warhammer 40k......

(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 12:40:00 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

  • Kitbasher extroinadaire
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • I hope that's not the sound he makes...
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2013, 05:17:14 AM »
Is there any company that manufactures 1/35 conversion kit that turns a Stuart light tank into a M8 HMC (i.e. a turret-only kit)?

It would be of great use to what is quite possibly gonna be the only plastic/resin model project I will ever do in my life other than Warhammer 40k......

(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)


http://www.newtmd.com/Search/M8
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2013, 07:56:11 AM »
Wow, thanks.

Now I can comtemplate on doing that Tamiya M3 Medium tank kit, whose manual I have lost, with it and a 76mm gun barrel......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 10:36:33 AM »
(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)
A stock Tamiya M8 kit is probably no more than $20-25 new, but they are currently not in production so you'll probably have to get one second hand in which case you can probably get it for $10-15. Heck, for $20 plus postage, you can have one of mine, I have two.

The TMD AM kit is really nice, but may be more than you want for your whif model.

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »
Now I can comtemplate on doing that Tamiya M3 Medium tank kit, whose manual I have lost, with it and a 76mm gun barrel......
If you want the instructions for the M3 Lee or Grant, let me know and I'll PDF them to you. PM me with your email address & I'll get it off to you before Christmas.

The M8 turret had the same turret ring as the Lee/ Grant turret, so is should be a straight swap. However, the 76mm tank gun needed a larger turret ring to work due to the greater recoil stroke. You're probably going to have to move the trunions forward 8-10" and add a counterweight to the back of the turret to make it all balance out. You could also add a muzzle brake from teh later 76mm guns to reduce recoil on the hull.

75mm sponson gun would be a good infantry support weapon while the 76 in the M8 turret would be very effective against the light armour present in most Central and South American armies through the 60s.

Paul

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 11:06:44 AM »
75mm sponson gun would be a good infantry support weapon while the 76 in the M8 turret would be very effective against the light armour present in most Central and South American armies through the 60s.

I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.  Maybe some weld-on overhead armour plates for the M8 turret.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2014, 11:01:28 PM »
I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.

I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you...
Quote
  Maybe some weld-on overhead armour plates for the M8 turret.

In which case you may want to look at aftermarket turrets for the LVT A5
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/amphibious/lvt/lvt-a5-01.png

Paul

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2014, 08:40:51 AM »

I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you... 

Dang!

...... guess I'll need to think up a scenario where Pak 97/38 could get captured at the Atlantic Wall......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2014, 10:40:25 AM »
I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.
I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you...

Just extend the sponson forward three or more feet or alternatively, say they've added more/stronger recoil recuperators to shorten the recoil travel.   The biggest problem would be the decreased traverse because of the bigger breech not able to swing inside.  It would be effectively zero to Port and a few degrees less to Starboard.


Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2019, 07:48:30 AM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.


Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2019, 11:19:03 PM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.
Apparently they found it almost impossible to work the piece in the confines of the small M8 turret. Although the caliber is the same, the 75mm M3 had a much greater recoil length (and therefore the breech and recoil guard were much larger) and longer ammo than the 75mm Pack How in the M8 and it greatly reduced the ability of the crew to do anything in the turret. Even if the M18 had not come along, the existence of the M10 platform and lack of AT performance of the 75mm M3 would have almost certainly doomed this idea to non-production.

Much the same problem existed when they tried to shoehorn the shortened 105mm M3 howitzer into an open casemate mounting on the M5 chassis, much like a baby M7 Priest. No room at all inside for any ammo, it was all in lockers located on the engine deck to the rear. They built a couple and dropped them as unworkable.

Paul

Offline Zaskar24

  • Newly Joined - Welcome me!
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2019, 10:10:13 PM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.
Apparently they found it almost impossible to work the piece in the confines of the small M8 turret. Although the caliber is the same, the 75mm M3 had a much greater recoil length (and therefore the breech and recoil guard were much larger) and longer ammo than the 75mm Pack How in the M8 and it greatly reduced the ability of the crew to do anything in the turret. Even if the M18 had not come along, the existence of the M10 platform and lack of AT performance of the 75mm M3 would have almost certainly doomed this idea to non-production.

Much the same problem existed when they tried to shoehorn the shortened 105mm M3 howitzer into an open casemate mounting on the M5 chassis, much like a baby M7 Priest. No room at all inside for any ammo, it was all in lockers located on the engine deck to the rear. They built a couple and dropped them as unworkable.

Paul

Thank you for the additional information and insight into this design. It is interesting to see what was tried during the war to get AT platforms into the field and how much pull the TD people had to do this as well. It is a shame because it does look neat. Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2019, 10:37:22 PM »
Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.
Well, the thing is, at this point nobody knew what a "better tank" looked like. All of this shotgunning of ideas and prototypes, etc. on both sides, was in an attempt to home in on what, actually, was a better tank. Prototyping was the tool used to establish if a concept had merit. Really most of these prototypes were being used to inform what the requirements _should_ be for new vehicles as the groups involved, especially on the US side who were both new to the war and very new to having access to the amount of money needed to manage a lot of new armoured vehicle design.

On the American side, while this was being tried, the Sherman was going through a number of experimental concepts to improve the suspension and increase the hitting power, and, at the same time, the T20/T23/T26 program was evolving a new medium tank that was definitely better, the M26.

The US, and to a lesser extent the other fighting powers, were all going though phases of creation that required, in the end, that a large number of ideas be tried before concepts could home in on what actually would work better.

The Germans and Brits were doing this on the battlefield and getting real life feedback. The Yanks were not in much combat before 1943 so the results of combat feedback were limited. This was not helped by a significant amount of Anglophobia and parochialism on the part of the US teams. They believed, without any experience, that they knew better. In lots of areas, not just tank design. In some cases they were right and in many cases they were wrong and paid a price in men and materiel.

Paul