Author Topic: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles  (Read 24876 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« on: March 21, 2012, 05:00:08 PM »
Wikipedia - M3 and M5 Stuart Light Tanks

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(Image source: Wikipedia

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I was pursuing an idea to mount the M8 Scott 75mm Howitzer Motor Carriage turret on the M113 Australian Army Fire Support Vehicle.  Both kits are quite old and have a lot of potential for modification.  I discovered that the M8 HMC turret will fit on the M113 FSV hull but it requires some major surgery to the ring in order to make it fit.  This was not the case for the Saladin turret from the M113 FSV fitting on the M5 (M8 HMC) Stuart hull.  It drops right in and there is no interference with the rear engine deck and the turret.  The resulting mock up was then imaged to share the idea here. 









So if anyone is in search of a quick and very easy modeling project involving to rather ancient Tamiya kits this might be just what you are looking for. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:02:23 PM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type
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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 06:36:32 PM »
Well, the Germans did it with the Hetzer (light tank into TD) so that's plausible.  The rear-mount engine has to be a bonus for that reason alone.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 08:51:24 PM »
My gosh, that Saladin turret on a Stuart hull is brilliant!  Well done, I can't believe it wasn't done before.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 01:23:32 AM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type
 
There was an anti-tank gun motor carriage based on the Stuart hull that had the engine mounted forward and the ordnance mounted at the rear of the hull.  Actually several variations on that theme but nothing that looked like a StuG Hetzer. 

I wonder what it will take to add HVSS to the Stuart hull to give it a different look.  The wider tracks would be a good thing for reducing ground pressure even further. 

Another possibility might be to try and fit the M24 Chaffee turret to the M5 Stuart hull. 

My gosh, that Saladin turret on a Stuart hull is brilliant!  Well done, I can't believe it wasn't done before.

Yes, it was an accident of sorts as it just fell into place without issue.  I had been focusing on the M8 HMC turret and trying to make that fit on the M113 FSV when I realized I had another whif staring me in the face with that Saladin turret on the Stuart hull. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:30:52 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 02:47:10 AM »
How about a tank destroyer type with fixed main gun...i.e. STUG type


They built a STUG type self-propelled gun on the M3 chassis, the T18 GMC:


The open-topped T82 105mm was also built:


... and pre-war the 75mm T3 on the M1A1 Combat Car chassis:



Also (pedant mode on) the STUG (Sturmgeschütze) were self-propelled assault guns, not purpose designed
'tank-destroyers' (Jagdpanzer), some models were used in that role when necessary but that was not the intent.
In the STUGs the gun was mounted toward the center of the vehicle, not forward like the Jagdpanzer and Hetzer,
(Jagdpanther is its own, unique animal).
Note that on the T18 the gun is roughly in the center fore-and-aft, and offset to the right. The small size
(if you ever get a chance to climb around one, do it, they are incredibly tight inside) of the Stuart and the
arrangement of the drive-train (mid rear-engine/front-drive) and short hull gives a designer few options,
a cutaway that shows the problems:


In the non-turreted 3" TD designs built, T56 and T57, the engine was moved forward and the gun mounted
to the rear.

T56

T57

While based on the 38(t), the Hetzer had a redesigned and enlarged hull, a Stuart based 'Hetzer-ish'
jagdpanzer, would also need an enlarged hull, in particular it would need to be longer. Also a pancake
engine wouldn't go amiss.

My own long stalled M3A3 with Vulcan:

It has been painted, but I just realized I have no newer pics of it, I'll get a couple and post later.

In closing, the M3A3 is by far the best looking of the family, the raised rear deck of the M5 just looks kluged.  ;)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 03:30:08 AM »
My own long stalled M3A3 with Vulcan:

It has been painted, but I just realized I have no newer pics of it, I'll get a couple and post later.

Nice work Jon, looking forward to seeing more images of this so hurry up and take some more pictures :)

In closing, the M3A3 is by far the best looking of the family, the raised rear deck of the M5 just looks kluged.  ;)

I would agree with you there, it does look a bit odd. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 06:09:33 AM »
There were some exceptions to the rule regarding the placement of main guns within the Jagdpanzer families, of course.  Not all were forward mounted.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 07:24:19 AM »
As far as the Sherman HVSS on the M3/M5 hull goes......... Not sure how well it would fit. I have George Bradford's scale plans book of American armor of W.W.2. I will check those plans.
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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 09:11:46 AM »
There were some exceptions to the rule regarding the placement of main guns within the Jagdpanzer families, of course.  Not all were forward mounted.

Regards,

John

If you mean the Marder series, Hornisse/Nashorn, Elefant, Jagdpanther and similar, they were classified
as Panzerjager rather than Jagdpanzer. Tank-Hunter rather than Hunting-Tank.
The Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer and Jagpanzer VI Jagdtiger were the only vehicles so named,
and the Jadgtiger was the only one of the three with a center mounted weapon.
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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
I would have thought the Jagdpanther was quite obviously a Jagdpanzer as it's weapon was forward mounted.

Either way, both the Panzerjagers and Jagdpanzers had a broadly similar role, that is anti-tank.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 03:30:01 PM »


Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.

John, I didn't create the naming difference that was the original owners.  ;)



“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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more scared of how complicated shit
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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 07:58:22 PM »
The Germans do/did like to think up rather convoluted names.  I particularly like the title "Herr Professor Doktor" which is rather grandiose.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Rafael

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 08:38:51 PM »
Lovely. I would like to see this in wheeled configuration :-*

Rafa
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 12:29:28 AM »
Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.


Thanks Jon, that little M3A3 hull looks great.  So much better than the Tamiya M5/M8 hull that I am using at the moment.  The Tamiya M8 HMC  kit hull does not feature the overhead hatches which certainly make a difference in overall appearance. 
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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 02:13:45 AM »


Here ya go Jeff, still a long ways to go.

John, I didn't create the naming difference that was the original owners.  ;)


I don't know why but that has a crazed US Civil War or WWI look to it...maybe even something Turtledove...
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 07:01:36 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 07:12:55 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
I have both,but not access to them right now.I will let you know asap.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 08:19:54 AM »
A question to anyone that happens to have the M3 Grant/Lee tank and the M3/M5 Stuart or M8 Scott HMC in their stash. 

Will the Grant or Lee turret fit on the Stuart hull? 

I do not have any Grant or Lee tank kits in my stash, thus the reason for asking the question. 

Thanks in advance.
I have both,but not access to them right now.I will let you know asap.

Thanks Chad.  Curious to see if the Lee or Grant turret can fit the Stuart hull without too much alteration.  It would make for a slightly different looking Stuart. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 02:24:28 PM »
Turret ring diameters:
M3/M5 Light: 46.75"
M3 Medium: 54.5"

According to the weight figures the Grant was about a 1,000 pounds heavier than the M3 'Lee',
which is not surprising as the Grant turret was larger.

Either turret would be too heavy for the Stuart chassis.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
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more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 11:45:28 PM »
Turret ring diameters:
M3/M5 Light: 46.75"
M3 Medium: 54.5"

According to the weight figures the Grant was about a 1,000 pounds heavier than the M3 'Lee',
which is not surprising as the Grant turret was larger.

Either turret would be too heavy for the Stuart chassis.


Thanks Jon, that information just makes it all that more appealing to build :)

Damn the reality! 

Guess I will be shopping for a Grant or Lee though I prefer the turret used on the Grant since it does not have that silly little machine gun cupola for the vehicle commander. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2013, 07:47:29 AM »
Would an M3 or M5 Stuart light tank armed with a 47 mm cannon be plausible? I know the M3A3 and M5A1 turrets were a bit longer than the earlier turrets,but then where would the wireless set be put at?
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 09:14:36 AM »
It honestly depends on the 47mm gun.  If it's something like the 47 mm SA 35, then probably not.  At the very least, it would be a tight fit.  If it was something more akin to the 47 mm Cannone da 47/32 M35, then there probably wouldn't be much problem with it.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2013, 06:00:42 AM »
It honestly depends on the 47mm gun.  If it's something like the 47 mm SA 35, then probably not.  At the very least, it would be a tight fit.  If it was something more akin to the 47 mm Cannone da 47/32 M35, then there probably wouldn't be much problem with it.

Cheers,

Logan

Thanks Logan.
An E Book I had read had the M3 light tank armed with a 47 mm.
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 06:22:49 AM »
It honestly depends on the 47mm gun.  If it's something like the 47 mm SA 35, then probably not.  At the very least, it would be a tight fit.  If it was something more akin to the 47 mm Cannone da 47/32 M35, then there probably wouldn't be much problem with it.

Cheers,

Logan

Thanks Logan.
An E Book I had read had the M3 light tank armed with a 47 mm.

Could be typo of 37mm  ???
Wonder how well they would have done with 20mm M39 or 25mm Bushmaster ?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:29:35 AM by finsrin »

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2013, 06:25:48 AM »
It honestly depends on the 47mm gun.  If it's something like the 47 mm SA 35, then probably not.  At the very least, it would be a tight fit.  If it was something more akin to the 47 mm Cannone da 47/32 M35, then there probably wouldn't be much problem with it.

Cheers,

Logan

Thanks Logan.
An E Book I had read had the M3 light tank armed with a 47 mm.

Could be typo of 37mm  ???
That is a good point. But when I read it,I was picturing in my mind of a normal Stuart with a 47 mm. I guess it would have to be a bit wider and longer to handle a 47,
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Stuart light tanks armed with a 47mm?
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 08:21:56 AM »
Longer turret definitely.  Longer recoil travel would need to be accommodated.   However, not that much substantial difference in penetration between most 37mm and most 47mm guns.  If you wanted to upgrade a Stuart, put a 2 Pdr in it.  Slightly better penetration than the US 37mm and about the same size and recoil travel.

Offline finsrin

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Stuart tank
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 01:02:28 PM »
Posing this question for those of you who know tanks and tank FCS and etc...
I have Stuart kits in 1/35 and 1/72.   Presume others at BTS do too.
To build Stuarts M3 & M5 as modernized with contemporary FCS and whatever else thatz new --- what would you add/delete to indicate it has a 21st Century modernization ?
Thanks in advance.
Bill

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2013, 01:24:02 PM »
Maybe give it a fluted barrel (see below) as well as external sensor heads/turret.  Maybe also ERA armour and a external ATGW mount.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 02:14:10 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline jcf

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2013, 01:32:06 PM »
Well there is this M3A3 with Vulcan that's been languishing on the shelf o' doom.



“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
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-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2013, 01:35:25 PM »
 :)
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
Nice surprise :)
Wasn't thinking in that kinda direction.  Do like it.
Perhaps a Cobra helicopter 3-barrel 20mm in stock turret.
What are examples of proper external sensor heads for 20mm or the 37mm ?

With that much of a start and it looking so right; otta move it to front of next to be finished queue.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 01:55:12 PM by finsrin »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »
If you're going for a (small) gun tank; enhanced optical, infra-red & thermal imaging systems, & laser range-finder would be essential. ERA, definitely; otherwise its merely a mobile crematorium. Maybe a 30mm chaingun firing the GAU-8 round? Bigger engine, diesel, or go for a small gas turbine (as per M1 Abrams). Boxed ATGW, at least 1, possibly 2 (for those hard-to-kill targets). May not be great in the front line, but could make a decent LoC & logistics smasher!

Vulcan-type systems, these days, it's definitely going to be infantry fire support. So, the same imagining systems as above & the option of laser rangefinder (not essential, though). Spaced ceramic armour (open turret + ERA = not so healthy for crew). Probably go with the diesel for your new engine.

My ha'penny's worth! ;)

:)

Guy
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:36:59 PM by Old Wombat »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2013, 04:46:22 PM »
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG. 

Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2013, 05:22:28 PM »
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2013, 05:36:49 PM »
Whooping big single barrel revolver canon firing same ammo as GAU-8 Avenger in the A-10.  Its main service use was on the JA37 Viggen

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2013, 05:37:01 PM »
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?

It's a type of cannon By Oerlikon of Switzerland.  It has the longest barrel of the present crop of 30mm cannon (which means essentially one of the highest muzzle velocity [1030m/sec] ).  It fires the same round as the GAU-8 (30×173mm).

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2013, 11:39:22 PM »
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?

It's a type of cannon By Oerlikon of Switzerland.  It has the longest barrel of the present crop of 30mm cannon (which means essentially one of the highest muzzle velocity [1030m/sec] ).  It fires the same round as the GAU-8 (30×173mm).

Cool, I can go with that! 8)

:)

Guy
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2013, 07:44:32 AM »
More discussion.
Cobra 3bbl 20mm fits in small turret.  Figure is good to fit M3 turret.
Would 25mm Bushmaster or 30mm KCA also fit and fire ?
Seems long KCA barrel needs more support than Stuart provides.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2013, 08:44:51 AM »
Fit an external barrel support.  They are used on various weapons, including the Jordanian Scorpions fitted with a 30mm cannon.   They also prevent barrel whip or droop (although droop usually sorts itself out, with the barrel straightening as the round fires).

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2013, 01:17:31 PM »
Or re-design the turret to be both more supportive of the barrel & more resistant to incoming fire (angled sides, rather than flat).

:)

Guy
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Weaver

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2013, 07:30:44 PM »
Re- think: how about two pods of ATGWs on the sides of the turret and the 37mm replace by a 40mm AGL to keep the enemy infantry teams away?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2013, 11:06:03 PM »
Ooh, forgot to say, definitely remove the bow .30-cal mg. If necessary, fit a 7.62mm co-axial (I think even the largest possible turret would be too small for a .50-cal co-ax).

:)

Guy
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline finsrin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2013, 02:08:33 AM »
40mm AGL --- didn't think of that - Thanks
Stuarts will be deployed as part of (1/72 diorama) archipelago defense forces mostly to thwart infiltrators.
So,,,,,   3bbl 20mm, 25mm Bushmaster, 40mm AGL  may each be mounted on different Stuarts.
Yes - 7.62 coax always good to have  :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 02:11:22 AM by finsrin »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2013, 09:48:41 AM »
Another thought.... Would the M-1117 turret fit? 40mm AGL & .50-cal ready to rumble!
(Remember, I'm 5000 km from my stash, so I can't check.)

:)

Guy
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline jschmus

  • Aims to please.
Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2013, 04:45:03 AM »
From the World of Tanks link posted in the "M4 Sherman" thread I saw this vehicle, the SO-75, an M3A3 chassis fitted with the 75mm Pak 40:
"Life isn’t divided into genres. It’s a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."-Alan Moore

Offline raafif

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2013, 01:38:54 PM »
Yugoslav Partisan conversion 1944 - if I remember correctly 3 of these were built plus two with German quad-flaks, all used in combat.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2013, 01:10:40 AM »
Got a running WWII tank for your little South American army but the lack of firepower is getting you down?  We have the solution!



Combine with new digital camo for that ultra-modern look!



Cheers,

Logan

Offline kerick

  • Responsible for all surrendered booty....Arrrr!!!!
Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
OK, this "digital" camo is completely out of hand!
Nice pics.......where do you find these?

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2013, 11:00:04 AM »
Thanks!  They came from here.  Plenty of whif inspiration here.

Surviving Panzers

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_M3_M3A1_Stuarts.pdf

















Cheers,

Logan

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2013, 12:20:43 PM »
Some of those are insane- the Bren carrier with the turret and what looks like an M3 with a 2pounder. The "convertible" is hilarious; 0 to 60 in about 10 minutes...

Offline raafif

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2013, 12:51:27 PM »


I only have one thing to say -- "Punk Darleks, Exterminate, Exterminate !!" ;D

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2013, 11:32:41 AM »
The biggest probblem with the Stuart is its size. It is incredibly small inside. Normal 21st century people simply do not fit inside. Peoiple that were 5'10" and 150 lb found it small. Strapping modern troopers pushing 6'2" and 220 of muscle simply will not fit inside unless you make significant structural changes.

If you want to "modernize" it, about the best you can do is what the Brazilians did in the early 70s:


If you are willing to virtually make a complete new vehicle you can get as far as this:


Either of those vehicles _could_ have image intensification systems and maybe simplistic laser rangefinders and then you could add ERA or ceramic slab armour, but the suspensions would be brutally overloaded.

If you go with a new turret with larger turret ring, then the gun can be changed to somehithg more suitable to the mission and for anti smuggling patrols the 30mm Rarden from the CVRT series of tanks is a good choice. Lots of ammo choices and a feed system that can swap between two types simultaneously loaded in the system. Also optimised for AFV use so it's not chewing through ammo like an aircraft autocannon ( ;) ).

Change the engine out for a modern diesel and add an IR suppression exhaust system and a turret bustle for radios & electronics.

Just a few thoughts,

Paul

Offline dy031101

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1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 12:32:02 PM »
Is there any company that manufactures 1/35 conversion kit that turns a Stuart light tank into a M8 HMC (i.e. a turret-only kit)?

It would be of great use to what is quite possibly gonna be the only plastic/resin model project I will ever do in my life other than Warhammer 40k......

(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 12:40:00 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Feldmarschall Zod

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2013, 05:17:14 AM »
Is there any company that manufactures 1/35 conversion kit that turns a Stuart light tank into a M8 HMC (i.e. a turret-only kit)?

It would be of great use to what is quite possibly gonna be the only plastic/resin model project I will ever do in my life other than Warhammer 40k......

(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)


http://www.newtmd.com/Search/M8
Every time you eat celery,an angel vomits in a gas station bathroom. Tanks rule. I know the load is late,but the voices tell me to pull over and clean the guns.

Offline dy031101

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2013, 07:56:11 AM »
Wow, thanks.

Now I can comtemplate on doing that Tamiya M3 Medium tank kit, whose manual I have lost, with it and a 76mm gun barrel......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline tankmodeler

  • Wisely picking parts of the real universe 2 ignore
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2013, 10:36:33 AM »
(A turret-only kit because I don't want to have a Stuart hull that I don't know what to do with...... unless it's cheaper to go for a full-vehicle kit......)
A stock Tamiya M8 kit is probably no more than $20-25 new, but they are currently not in production so you'll probably have to get one second hand in which case you can probably get it for $10-15. Heck, for $20 plus postage, you can have one of mine, I have two.

The TMD AM kit is really nice, but may be more than you want for your whif model.

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »
Now I can comtemplate on doing that Tamiya M3 Medium tank kit, whose manual I have lost, with it and a 76mm gun barrel......
If you want the instructions for the M3 Lee or Grant, let me know and I'll PDF them to you. PM me with your email address & I'll get it off to you before Christmas.

The M8 turret had the same turret ring as the Lee/ Grant turret, so is should be a straight swap. However, the 76mm tank gun needed a larger turret ring to work due to the greater recoil stroke. You're probably going to have to move the trunions forward 8-10" and add a counterweight to the back of the turret to make it all balance out. You could also add a muzzle brake from teh later 76mm guns to reduce recoil on the hull.

75mm sponson gun would be a good infantry support weapon while the 76 in the M8 turret would be very effective against the light armour present in most Central and South American armies through the 60s.

Paul

Offline dy031101

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2013, 11:06:44 AM »
75mm sponson gun would be a good infantry support weapon while the 76 in the M8 turret would be very effective against the light armour present in most Central and South American armies through the 60s.

I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.  Maybe some weld-on overhead armour plates for the M8 turret.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2014, 11:01:28 PM »
I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.

I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you...
Quote
  Maybe some weld-on overhead armour plates for the M8 turret.

In which case you may want to look at aftermarket turrets for the LVT A5
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/amphibious/lvt/lvt-a5-01.png

Paul

Offline dy031101

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Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2014, 08:40:51 AM »

I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you... 

Dang!

...... guess I'll need to think up a scenario where Pak 97/38 could get captured at the Atlantic Wall......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: 1/35 M8 HMC Conversion Kit?
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2014, 10:40:25 AM »
I'm actually planning to put that 76mm gun in the sponson mount and keep the turreted 75mm howitzer.
I'm pretty sure the recoil length for the 76mm wouldn't actually permit it to fit in the sponson. If that mattters to you...

Just extend the sponson forward three or more feet or alternatively, say they've added more/stronger recoil recuperators to shorten the recoil travel.   The biggest problem would be the decreased traverse because of the bigger breech not able to swing inside.  It would be effectively zero to Port and a few degrees less to Starboard.


Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2014, 10:05:41 AM »
Here's an interesting one. It's an M8 HMC, but with an M24 Chaffee mantlet.



Cheers,

Logan

Offline Queeg

  • Master armour builder
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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2014, 10:23:26 AM »
I've always like this as a Stuart upgrade, thinking about using this idea for my 20mm '46 Americans. Sorry can't credit the modeller, it's just outa my web pic stash .....

Brent



Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2014, 10:42:28 AM »
Pretty straightforward, actually. Brazilian X1A with 60mm HVMS instead of the 90mm Cockerill.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2014, 10:44:47 AM »
By the way, I found the source pretty readily. Graywolfgang ono Armorama about 5 years ago.



http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=135186

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Queeg

  • Master armour builder
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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2014, 12:47:33 PM »
That's the Verlindin HVMS turret though right? It looks better than the X1A turret at any rate. 

PS that was a quick search btw. I knew I had the pic somewhere but searching the drive for it was a mare lol

Brent

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2014, 09:58:14 PM »
It looked like it from the builder's comments. He says he built it in '88 using the VL turret.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Queeg

  • Master armour builder
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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2014, 04:41:07 AM »
Blackdog do a HVMS in 1/72nd so I might have to chase one up ...........

Offline raafif

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2014, 04:52:43 AM »
screen-grabs from a 45-minute youtube video on Croatian 1991 improvised armour ....

Note the improvised tank named "Sherman" - other photos weren't clear & I thought it must be built on a Russian catapillar-tractor but it appears to be based on a M4-18t "High-Speed" tractor chassis.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 04:54:44 AM by raafif »

Offline dy031101

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2018, 05:41:47 AM »
I've always like this as a Stuart upgrade, thinking about using this idea for my 20mm '46 Americans. Sorry can't credit the modeller, it's just outa my web pic stash .....

The 60mm HVMS turret has the same turret ring diametre as that of the AML-90 turret.  I have an awful sense of scale, but that makes the idea of a turret swap for the X1A seem somewhat hopeful to me.

Does anyone know the length of a complete 60mm APFSDS round?  Just to help me generating a mental picture on the possible resulting ammo capacity......

Pretty straightforward, actually. Brazilian X1A with 60mm HVMS instead of the 90mm Cockerill.
That's the Verlindin HVMS turret though right? It looks better than the X1A turret at any rate.

I don't have the number on the weight of the turret used by the X1A, but the heavier gun and seemingly more-sophisticated fire control leads me to believe that the complete HVMS turret might be heavier than the X1A turret.  I love the idea but wonder if the added weight is still within the margin that the tank's suspension can handle......
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:45:45 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2018, 05:56:06 AM »
Does anyone know the length of a complete 60mm APFSDS round?  Just to help me generating a mental picture on the possible resulting ammo capacity......

I believe this is the same ammunition (the Italians were originally involved with the Israeli 60mm APFSDS round as well):



So complete cartridge is 620mm.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:58:37 AM by GTX_Admin »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2018, 06:28:07 AM »
So complete cartridge is 620mm.

Thanks.  That as a complete round seems both shorter and lighter than the 90mm DEFA F1 gun's HEAT round (at least as far as the numbers I got off Google are concerned: 690mm and 8.4kg).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 06:31:20 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2019, 07:48:30 AM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.


Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2019, 11:19:03 PM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.
Apparently they found it almost impossible to work the piece in the confines of the small M8 turret. Although the caliber is the same, the 75mm M3 had a much greater recoil length (and therefore the breech and recoil guard were much larger) and longer ammo than the 75mm Pack How in the M8 and it greatly reduced the ability of the crew to do anything in the turret. Even if the M18 had not come along, the existence of the M10 platform and lack of AT performance of the 75mm M3 would have almost certainly doomed this idea to non-production.

Much the same problem existed when they tried to shoehorn the shortened 105mm M3 howitzer into an open casemate mounting on the M5 chassis, much like a baby M7 Priest. No room at all inside for any ammo, it was all in lockers located on the engine deck to the rear. They built a couple and dropped them as unworkable.

Paul

Offline Zaskar24

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2019, 10:10:13 PM »
Here is another interesting one-off prototype that I recently found. The story is that it was looked at for a faster tank destroyer until the M18 came about at which point it was dropped. Interesting use for the M8 HMC though.
Apparently they found it almost impossible to work the piece in the confines of the small M8 turret. Although the caliber is the same, the 75mm M3 had a much greater recoil length (and therefore the breech and recoil guard were much larger) and longer ammo than the 75mm Pack How in the M8 and it greatly reduced the ability of the crew to do anything in the turret. Even if the M18 had not come along, the existence of the M10 platform and lack of AT performance of the 75mm M3 would have almost certainly doomed this idea to non-production.

Much the same problem existed when they tried to shoehorn the shortened 105mm M3 howitzer into an open casemate mounting on the M5 chassis, much like a baby M7 Priest. No room at all inside for any ammo, it was all in lockers located on the engine deck to the rear. They built a couple and dropped them as unworkable.

Paul

Thank you for the additional information and insight into this design. It is interesting to see what was tried during the war to get AT platforms into the field and how much pull the TD people had to do this as well. It is a shame because it does look neat. Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Stuart Light Tank (M3 and M5) Family of Vehicles
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2019, 10:37:22 PM »
Also a shame because resources could have gone into creating better allied tanks earlier.
Well, the thing is, at this point nobody knew what a "better tank" looked like. All of this shotgunning of ideas and prototypes, etc. on both sides, was in an attempt to home in on what, actually, was a better tank. Prototyping was the tool used to establish if a concept had merit. Really most of these prototypes were being used to inform what the requirements _should_ be for new vehicles as the groups involved, especially on the US side who were both new to the war and very new to having access to the amount of money needed to manage a lot of new armoured vehicle design.

On the American side, while this was being tried, the Sherman was going through a number of experimental concepts to improve the suspension and increase the hitting power, and, at the same time, the T20/T23/T26 program was evolving a new medium tank that was definitely better, the M26.

The US, and to a lesser extent the other fighting powers, were all going though phases of creation that required, in the end, that a large number of ideas be tried before concepts could home in on what actually would work better.

The Germans and Brits were doing this on the battlefield and getting real life feedback. The Yanks were not in much combat before 1943 so the results of combat feedback were limited. This was not helped by a significant amount of Anglophobia and parochialism on the part of the US teams. They believed, without any experience, that they knew better. In lots of areas, not just tank design. In some cases they were right and in many cases they were wrong and paid a price in men and materiel.

Paul

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2020, 03:53:42 AM »




All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2020, 03:56:27 AM »
And also this:

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2020, 08:56:06 AM »
A casemate style tank destroyer and assault gun versions.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2020, 01:55:53 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2020, 01:57:11 AM »
Turretless variant:

« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 02:01:46 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2020, 03:23:43 AM »
Both of the above images are an interesting study of the Stuart.  The first image has what appear to be additional armour on the lower hull that looks for all intents and purposes like track links.  Maybe from an SdKfZ-251?  The addition of the folding canvas top with metal tube frame is also something I do not recall seeing in any previous image of any Stuart with turret removed.  Is there a Jeep missing the top somewhere?  Or was this sourced from another vehicle type?  A nice feature to have for those days filled with precipitation.  :smiley:
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2020, 03:32:22 AM »
A nice feature to have for those days filled with precipitation.  :smiley:

Or excessive heat...
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2020, 04:53:57 AM »
According to Wikipedia, the French looking guys in the left image are in Indochina. Those tracks could be French (not Char B1 or Lorraine). Maybe a Japanese amphibian? The French did use some Type 89 and Type 95 tanks in their 'Commando Blindé du Cambodge' (although the tracks don't match).

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2020, 09:59:47 AM »
When I saw those track links, I immediately thought "French", but I'm afraid I didn't think anything more specific.  ;D

And also this:



Really wish Dragon would re-release their M55 Quad Gun Trailer.  ::) Should've picked some up when they were cheap and plentiful....  :uuu:
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2020, 01:54:58 AM »
One could try something slightly different and combine the twin 20mm from this:




with a Stuart.  Possibly even use the decals to make it an Israeli version too.
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Offline Story

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Re: Stuart tank
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2020, 09:01:44 PM »
Neat subject to duplicate. Also, Nelson Muntz says "Ha Ha".

Funny story. Tank #64 (pictured here), #65, and #66 were on the beaches waiting for the PLA to land, much to the dismay of the attackers. But this wasn't because the ROC forces knew that the PLA was coming. It was because #66 had broken down the night earlier on the beach and the platoon commander decided to keep his platoon on the beach until #66 could be repaired. So when the first PLA human waves descended, they found themselves immediately facing armor. When the M5s ran out of ammunition, they resorted to running people over*. In another twist of fate, a ROC tank landing ship happened to be near the PLA's landing sites during the initial invasion. It was able to devastate the PLA landing craft, which were mostly civilian vessels, with its 20mm and 40mm cannons. Was this the result of the result of forethought from the ROC army? Nope. The ship was supposed to leave the previous day, but stayed because it was in the midst of a peanut oil smuggling operation.So two "happy little accidents" contributed to the survival of an independent Taiwan. To this day, Taiwan retains control of Kinmen Island.https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/ggijoa/roc_m5a1_bear_of_kinmen_which_played_a_pivotal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf 

* And the crew was probably cackling like Max Cady in a movie theater at that point.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 09:03:47 PM by Story »