Author Topic: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV  (Read 49108 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« on: March 20, 2012, 06:03:47 AM »
Marder IFV

Wikipedia - Marder IFV

Click to view larger image

(Image source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marder1A3.6.jpg)


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

TAM (Tank) and VCTP

Wikipedia - TAM (Tank), VCTP, VCA 155, VCTM, VCPC, VCLC, VCA (Med-Evac), and VCRT

Click to view larger image

(Image source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TAM_snorkel.JPG

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Puma IFV

Wikipedia - Puma IFV

Click to view larger image

(Image source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SPz_Puma_Mobilitätsversuchfahrzeug_VS2.jpg)

PSM (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann - Rheinmetall Landsysteme) - Puma

KMW (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann) - Puma

Army Recognition.com - PUMA Technical Data Sheet and Images

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Links to models of the Marder IFV/TAM Family of Vehicles built by Diethelm Berlage at Track-Link.net (hot-linking images is not allowed):

VCTP with Mine Roller

VCTP, UN in Croatia

VCLC rocket-launcher

VCA 155mm Howitzer

TAM / TH 301 Prototype

VCTM mortar carrier

VCI Marder 1A3

Marder KUKA M12 Project, 1998

TH301/TAM Tractor

The gallery containing all of Diethelm's Models at Track-Link.net

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I recall seeing some drawings in a German modelling magazine many years ago for an Infantry Fire Support Vehicle based on the Marder IFV that was armed with a 57mm auto-loading cannon, 7.62NATO machinegun in a turret that was very low profile. 

Other ideas for the Marder:

Turret from the M42 Duster to create a low-tech air defense vehicle. 
Armored logisitcs vehicle by removing the sides of the troop compartment and making a cargo bed.
Bradley IFV turret instead of the regular turret to make an updated IFV with integral ATGM capability.
 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 06:25:07 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 10:37:37 AM »
<...>
I recall seeing some drawings in a German modelling magazine many years ago for an Infantry Fire Support Vehicle based on the Marder IFV that was armed with a 57mm auto-loading cannon, 7.62NATO machinegun in a turret that was very low profile.  <...>

That was the "Begleitpanzer 57" (escort tank 57). It was also to be equipped with ATGMs.
 Apparently a private venture, they found no customers. I think it's interesting that the concept was (kinda) revived with the Russian BMPT.
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 10:46:22 AM »
What's the elevation of the stock ATGM mount?  I'm thinking of the crude way of simply replacing the MILAN launcher with a MANPADS.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 01:44:56 PM »
<...>I recall seeing some drawings in a German modelling magazine many years ago for an Infantry Fire Support Vehicle based on the Marder IFV that was armed with a 57mm auto-loading cannon, 7.62NATO machinegun in a turret that was very low profile.  <...>
That was the "Begleitpanzer 57" (escort tank 57). It was also to be equipped with ATGMs.
Apparently a private venture, they found no customers. I think it's interesting that the concept was (kinda) revived with the Russian BMPT.

Yes indeed, that was the one.  I recall someone building a model of the thing and was hoping to find images of it on-line but so far no luck. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »
Posted these on What-If a couple years back.





“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline jcf

  • Global Moderator
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 02:31:18 PM »
VCTP also from Modell-Fan



“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 07:59:36 PM »
What's the elevation of the stock ATGM mount?  I'm thinking of the crude way of simply replacing the MILAN launcher with a MANPADS.


A good friend of mine was a Marder commander. I'll ask him when I see him the next time. But I don't think there is much in the way of elevation. The ATGM mount on the Marder is just a kind of clamp that fixes the Milan and associated bits by clamping the normal folded-up tripod to the vehicle. There are a couple of really good pics in THIS WALK-AROUND.  I also don't think the Milan launcher proper can elevate that much. With the way the ATGM mount fixed in place on the turret, I don't think there's much lateral movement either. Anything apart outside of 11-1 o'clock and you really have to twist yourself out of the hatch.
I just remember that the SOP for firing the Milan from the vehicle includes swinging the turret to the 11 o'clock position and depressing the 20mm gun all the way.

If you want to have the MANPADS power-operated from within the vehicle, I suppose the best bet is to fix a Stinger or two to the external MG3 mount on the turret.
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 08:02:07 PM »
Moritz, did the Heer end up doing away with that external remote MG3 at the rear of the vehicle in the later variants?  That might be a place to put a RWS with a MANPADS attached.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 08:56:41 PM »
You can get a fairly good analogue of the VCTP in 1/72nd by just cross-kitting a Luchs Turret onto a Marder hull - Revell have done both vehicles.

Stalled project for a British Army fire-support version:


« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 08:59:07 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 09:18:13 PM »
^ Neat!  :)

Moritz, did the Heer end up doing away with that external remote MG3 at the rear of the vehicle in the later variants?  <...>

Yup. They dropped that when they converted them to Marder 1A2 standard.
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 11:09:52 PM »
Posted these on What-If a couple years back.

Thanks for sharing once again Jon.  Much appreciated. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 06:56:23 AM »
Posted these on What-If a couple years back.

a couple years back ?  Gee time flies when you're having fun , I thought it was only last year some time !

Now that marder with the Beer kegs at the back gives me ideas  8)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 04:32:47 PM »
How about a dedicated SPAAG Marder?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Was left standing in front when everyone else took one step back...
  • Global Moderator
  • Putting the "pro" in procrastination since...?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 01:20:29 AM »
^ Here you go, Greg!  :)

One version with an M163 turret and one with the turret of an CV9040 AAV:



I find the one with the CV9040 turret especially nice to look at.

So much for the easily kitbashable (is that a word? If not, it should be!) options. I suppose you could also whif a Roland turret to incorporate some guns (instead of the SAM).
Or how about a Wildcat turret?

Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 02:17:02 AM »
 :) :) :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 10:14:52 PM »
Would the Marder hull be capable of accommodating the 105mm gun turret from the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System?   
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 10:32:13 PM »
I don't see why not.  The Argentinians developed the TAM tank off the basic design and it's related to the Leopard 1 either way.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2012, 03:58:34 AM »
Jeffry: the experimental Thyssen/Henschel VTS-1 was a Marder hull with a 105mm RWS.
http://www.military-vehicle-photos.com/picture/number1762.asp

John: the Argies didn't really develop the TAM. 'Tanque Argentino Mediano' is just the Ejército Argentino's name for the licenced Thyssen-Henschel TH 301. </JMN mode>
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2012, 04:07:30 AM »
Jeffry: the experimental Thyssen/Henschel VTS-1 was a Marder hull with a 105mm RWS.
http://www.military-vehicle-photos.com/picture/number1762.asp


Thanks for providing the link/image.  That configuration certainly looks interesting with the elevated main gun.  The MGS turret would be a bit wider but still a possibility to make it fit in the confines of the hull. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 04:08:34 AM »
Marder as a tank destroyer With fixed 120mm gun?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Unaffiliated Independent Subversive...and the last person to go for a trip on a Mexicana dH Comet 4
  • Global Moderator
  • His stash is able to be seen from space...
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2012, 04:16:34 AM »
Marder as a tank destroyer With fixed 120mm gun?
 

Gun forward and engine to the rear?  That could work but there are better and certainly much sturdier platforms for such a concept. 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hopefully I can find the right parts to eventually modify one of my Marder kits to create a mortar track. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Maverick

  • Suffers from 'Fat Fingers' and accidentally locks his own thread...
  • Holding Pattern
  • *
  • The profile machine!
    • My Photobucket Thread
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2012, 06:24:24 AM »
John: the Argies didn't really develop the TAM. 'Tanque Argentino Mediano' is just the Ejército Argentino's name for the licenced Thyssen-Henschel TH 301. </JMN mode>

Whilst I'm aware that the original TAM was designed by Thyssen-Henschel, the TAM was produced in Argentina in seven variants I believe.  The TH-301 was a development of the original TAM design (initially designated TAM-4) differing in powerpack, fire control & other details.  With this in mind, one would suggest that the TH-301 is, in fact, a development of the TAM.

Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline raafif

  • Is formally accused of doing nasty things to DC-3s...and officially our first whiffing zombie
  • Whiffing Insane
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 08:12:07 AM »
the Stryker MGS turret wil "just" fit the Marder chassis !

I'm currently doing (an updated) Abrams version which was built.  Teledyne had 1/35th models of it on Abrams, Leopard1, Centurion -- the Centurion one was later built by Jordan.

The AFV Club MGS kit has a few issues re a wrong part number & several very fragile bits.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 04:46:56 PM »
Marder as a tank destroyer With fixed 120mm gun?
 

Gun forward and engine to the rear?  That could work but there are better and certainly much sturdier platforms for such a concept. 

Bah!  Practicality is optional around here ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Marder IFV, TAM, and Puma IFV
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2012, 12:19:05 PM »
Marder as a tank destroyer With fixed 120mm gun?

That sounds very much like the Swedish UDES 11 concept.

In the other hemisphere, TAP was to be a tank derivative on the stretched VCA Palmaria hull.
"Gentlemen, this is all very well in practice. But does it work in theory?"