Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration

[GTX_Admin]

Hi folks...and Scooterman,

Here's a thread dedicated to your Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration.

To start you off, here is something a friend provided me yesterday:

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

Regards,

Greg

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I thought we had one of those already

Any chance that the RB199 would fit inside of the Skyhawk fuselage?  With or without reheat, it would certainly perk things up. 

[GTX_Admin]

I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread.

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread.

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?

With thrust reverser gear it might take on the appearance of the Israeli Skyhawks with the IR suppression based on the lengthened exhaust.  At least that would give it the needed room for the diverter apparatus to work without interference. 

[upnorth]

A few years ago I had a RAF Skyhawk on the go.

I was using a Fujimi single seater kit with a Quickboost Harrier Gr.5 nose grafted on.

I put the typical RAF blocky RWR antenna on the tail and a bolt on retractable IFR probe similar to the Tornado IDS set up on it.

I kept the kit tailpipe and decided it would take a dry Avon as it's engine.

I had the plan to put 30 mm Aden guns on it and had some BL 755 cluster bombs to hand under it.

Sadly; the nose suffered resin shrinkage and, in a fit of rage, she took a flight across the room.

I had her painted in mid 80s green/grey wraparound and marked up as an 11 Sqn. machine.

I'll see if I still have pics of her somewhere.

[upnorth]

What about a two engined version built around a pair of J-85 engines?

A regards the thrust reverser idea; I'd be inclined to go with the afterburning RB-199, but rig up an internal thrust reverser like in the Saab Viggen rather than the crude external bucket system of the Tornado. it would still get you the coolness of a thrust reverser, but in a more elegant package.

[elmayerle]

I couldn't find an existing thread - I always do a search before starting a new thread.

Re the RB199, it should be able to fit one - after all Singapore fitted the F404 to theirs and that is a bigger engine.  Would need some appropriate engineering but it should work.

Now to take things one step further, what about an A-4 with RB199...with the thrust reversers as per the Panavia Tornado!?  Still thinking of the reason....but who cares?

You'd need a reverser system more like the Viggen's, but no reason it couldn't work.  The RB.199, as with the F404, would also need the necessary structural and systems mods for the AMAD installation ahead of the engine.  Since Singapore did it, it's clearly not a major problem.

One further thought, how about taking the lengthened fuselage of the two-seater and making it a single-seat bird; leaving the emaining volume, depending on how you did the conversion, for additional avionics, additional fuel, or additional ammo.

[elmayerle]

A few years ago I had a RAF Skyhawk on the go.

I was using a Fujimi single seater kit with a Quickboost Harrier Gr.5 nose grafted on.

I put the typical RAF blocky RWR antenna on the tail and a bolt on retractable IFR probe similar to the Tornado IDS set up on it.

I kept the kit tailpipe and decided it would take a dry Avon as it's engine.

I had the plan to put 30 mm Aden guns on it and had some BL 755 cluster bombs to hand under it.

Sadly; the nose suffered resin shrinkage and, in a fit of rage, she took a flight across the room.

I had her painted in mid 80s green/grey wraparound and marked up as an 11 Sqn. machine.

I'll see if I still have pics of her somewhere.

A dry Avon would work as the original engine in the Skyhawk, the J65, is a dry Sapphire.

[GTX_Admin]

What about a two engined version built around a pair of J-85 engines?

Me likey your thinking!

[Scooterman]

Real quick thoughts on engines.

Twin J85s wouldn't be much good.  Get about 10k lbs thrust total but don't forget the weight gain with twin engines (plumbing, aero mods, wiring etc)  The Pratt J52-P-408 pushed 11,500lbs, not too shabby.  FYI the F404 in the (T)A-4SUs are 10,400 but better gas milage.

RB199 wouldn't be bad, but without reheat only throws 9500lbs.  And a bit thirsty.  The engine was designed for more of a twin engine application.

M88 from the Rafale is going to give you the same issues with the RB199 but a bit more power 11,200.

If I was going to install a new motor, I'd go F414 from the Superbug.  More power dry (13,000+) with just a tweaks from a F404 installation. 

I guess the RM12 from the Gripen would prolly work just as good as F404.

Oh an thrust reverser.............not going to happen.  WAAAY too heavy a device for the Skyhawks' airframe.  Give me good brakes and a drag chute!

Let me finish by saying the above statements are done with a bit of Scooter knowledge, and LOTS of guesstimating from quickly looking at motor specs online in a very tired state.  By no means take it for granted or gospel!   

[elmayerle]

I agree that a dry RM12 or F414 woiuld be the most straight-forward engine upgrades now.  Still, I could see, depending on the user, either the RB.199 or M88 being fitted for commonality with other aircraft to simplify the logistics "tail".  Now, if we were doing something from back in the sixties, I could see a dry Avon as an alternative on a commonality basis (say, in joint service along side Hunters).

[GTX_Admin]

How about an A-4 with the side intakes replaced with a nose intake?

[elmayerle]

How about an A-4 with the side intakes replaced with a nose intake?

Why add the extra length of ductwork when you need that volume for other items?  Now, I could see a F-16-style ventral intake.

[GTX_Admin]

No intelligent thought there...more interested in it for asthetic appeal

[elmayerle]

No intelligent thought there...more interested in it for asthetic appeal

Understood.  I think a ventral inlet, properly done, could be quite aesthetically appealing but it'd likely be quite the "FOD finder".

[GTX_Admin]

What about a dedicated air defence A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...

[Geoff]

What about a dedicated air defence A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...

IIRC the USN had a trial with some A-4Cs with nose radomes off ?Cougers for operation from the escort carriers. I always thought it was a good idea

Edit - just checked - 3 Anti-submarine Fighter Squadrons  VSF-1,2, and 3 had A-4s. They tried the nose off an F-11 Tiger on an A-4B (BuNo145002) in 1966 but it wasn't successful.

[Cliffy B]

What about a dedicated air defense A-4 with air-air radar, after burning engine etc...

IIRC the USN had a trial with some A-4Cs with nose radomes off ?Cougars for operation from the escort carriers. I always thought it was a good idea

Would be a good chance to use the VFS squadrons!!!!  They were small squadrons formed of A-4s for the Essex-class CVS carriers during their Nam deployments IIRC.  They were replaced by F-8s before being completed disbanded when the CVSs were decommed.  They were VSF-1 (Warhawks), 76 (Fleur-de-lis), and 86 (Gators) with DETs formed for each CVS.  Always like the look of VSF-1s A-4s.



See the bottom of this page for their insignias.
http://bluejacket.com/usn_avi_insig_v-qrs.html

[Geoff]

Yep like this idea - dam thats another one on the to do list!

[Geoff]

Been thinking of all the small aiirforces and A-4 users that would have found this useful. Also it would have been in competition with the F-5 as I think that was origionally ment for the USNs small escort carriers?

[Daryl J.]

USAF SEA night scheme.

RCAF Tigermeet

Central American faded scheme, random country of choice

Khemedi

And what might be considered a Scooter heresy:  alternate wing planforms.  Swept, scimitar, kinked delta, etc.

[elmayerle]

Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.

[Caveman]

start with something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk

[GTX_Admin]

Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.

That would make sense for a '80s/'90s version.  I was really thinking something more for the '60s/'70s though.  Maybe give it the AN/APQ-153 radar from the F-5E? Arm it with IR and SARH AIM-9s?

[GTX_Admin]

Something for those aficiandos amongst us...looking at you Scoorterman!



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