Author Topic: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz  (Read 1707 times)

Offline Nexus1171

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WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« on: December 16, 2014, 01:40:00 AM »
What would have happened if the day after Dresden the RAF's 5 Group took part in the raid instead of 8 Group and employed the same bombing method as with Dresden?

Would it have raised a similar firestorm, and would it have forced an end to the war? 

Supposedly, Albert Speer said it could have (admittedly Speer seemed to say whatever people wanted to hear in interviews)


BTW: This is not an approval of firebombing, merely a hypothetical question

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 08:21:13 AM »
The Nazi leadership were concerned at the firestorm raids' effects on public opinion.   Despite what most people might think, the Nazis knew the pretty well they only ruled because the population consented to their rule.  While, towards the end of the war they became more oppressive, most of the time their rule was pretty light within Germany.  Which is why they had a Minister for Propaganda and why Goebbels spent a lot of time looking at public opinion.   Would more firestorms at that late stage have actually ended the war? I doubt it.  They were well on the downward spiral towards Gutt un Damerang no matter what by that stage.   Twelve months earlier though, when Operation Gomorrah - the Hamburg firestorm raid which created the first deliberate firestorm had been followed up immediately it may have caused real revolt in Germany.  Goebbels called this raid "the greatest crisis of the war" in his diary. 

Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel to his wife dated 3 Aug 1943 captured the fear instilled in the German people after the bombings on the city:
Quote
Hamburg has been a catastrophe for us, and last night there was yet another heavy air raid on it. The same must be expected for Berlin as soon as the nights are long enough for the longer flying time involved. That is why I want you to leave Berlin as soon as possible in view of the enormous danger there now is of fires breaking out; fires are far more dangerous than high explosive.... I am afraid of vast conflagrations consuming whole districts, streams of burning oil flowing into the basements and shelters, phosphorus, and the like. It will be difficult to escape from the shelters then, and there is the danger of tremendous heat being generated. This will not be cowardice, but the sheer realization that in face of phenomena like these one is completely powerless; in the heart of the city you will be quite powerless.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 08:24:09 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline Nexus1171

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 02:30:48 PM »
Rickshaw

Quote
The Nazi leadership were concerned at the firestorm raids' effects on public opinion.   Despite what most people might think, the Nazis knew the pretty well they only ruled because the population consented to their rule.
I figured half the population was brainwashed, half was terrified of the leadership...

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While, towards the end of the war they became more oppressive
To prevent uprisings?

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Would more firestorms at that late stage have actually ended the war? I doubt it.
I was just curious because Dresden ended up as a massive bonfire that even eclipsed Hamburg; if another raid occurred on Chemnitz that also made a firestorm of substantial magnitude -- the population would possibly be scared that no matter where they went they'd just be firebombed again and their whole country would be turned into a graveyard.


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They were well on the downward spiral towards Gutt un Damerang no matter what by that stage.
Guttundamerang means like a disaster conclusion right?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 04:29:47 AM »
What would have happened if the day after Dresden the RAF's 5 Group took part in the raid instead of 8 Group and employed the same bombing method as with Dresden?

Would it have raised a similar firestorm, and would it have forced an end to the war? 


How the hell is anyone here supposed to answer such questions??
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 12:11:44 PM »
A flaming, destructive, hell on earth butterfly effect?

Offline jcf

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 03:10:02 AM »
The word is Götterdämmerung, it literally means 'Twilight of the Gods' and is a translation of the Old Norse term Ragnarök, but it is also used to describe the collapse of the 3rd Reich.
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 02:34:36 PM »
What would make this more entertaining would be if you posed  a scenario like you outlined and conjectured how it would lead to an early end to the war, after which various people would post to either poke holes in the logic or give supporting data, rather than an open ended question with no real focus. IMHO.

Alvis 3.1

Offline Silver Fox

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Re: WW2: No 5 Group Raided Chemnitz
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 11:57:49 AM »
I'll take the challenge...

After the Hamburg and Chemnitz fire raids Bomber Command and 8th AF launched a series of pure terror raids. Mimicking a now established pattern of pre-raid Recce missions combined with psy-ops leaflet drops, they announced future targets.

Despite Luftwaffe resistance the raids went in. Subsequent announced targets saw the civil populace start to flee in advance of the raids.

The end for Die Dritte Reich came when civilians attempting to flee Schweinfurt were turned back by the Webrmacht. Desperate to save themselves, and unable to escape, they torched the factories which made Schweinfurt a target.

The phenomenon spread quickly. Within a month 8th AF was conducting missions in support of a panicked German populace as they threw off the yoke of Nazism.