Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 82052 times)

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #300 on: January 01, 2019, 09:14:39 PM »
Personally I think one of the biggest shames for the RN was that they didn't manage to proceed with the Maltas.  They were quite different to the previous British carriers in that the hanger and flight deck were superstructure and not part of an armoured box so likely would have been easier to convert to an angled deck configuration than the armoured fleets were.  Their size was not that different to the Midways but I believe they had higher freeboard which would have been a bonus.

Idealy the UK would have continued the Maltas and second batch of Centaurs in slow time or even suspending, but not cancelling them, while accellerating the completion of the Audicious and first batch of Centaurs before completing the Maltas and the "Hermes" to a modernised design from the mid to late 50s.  The incomplete Colossus and Majestics would sold or scrapped, the completed ones sold or transfered.  I even had the idea (quite improbabe that it would ever happen) that a number of the Colossus and Majestics could have been transfered to the USN as CVS and / or (alternatives to the converted Essex) to offset the UKs Lend Lease debt, a win win in that the USN gets a perfectly capable but much more economical platform for the CVS role.

Legacy carriers, specifically the four materiely sound armoured fleet carriers would be transfered / sold as soon as the Audicious and Centaur class ships were available, with Illustrius and Formidable scrapped.  The nations acquiring the armoured fleets and Colossus and Majestics would be possible customers for the Audacious and Centaurclasses, with or without modernisations.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #301 on: January 02, 2019, 03:12:14 AM »
HMS New Zealand:  Becomes HMCS New Zealand

Kiwiland doesn't get a carrier? ??? ;)
Errr...typo on my part.  Was supposed to be HMNZS New Zealand.  Though it would be partially staffed by current/ex-RN staff...
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #302 on: January 02, 2019, 01:08:28 PM »
BuShips 1955 self-protecting CVAN



Original post HERE.

======================================================================

While a reversal of what the design seems actually intended for (vertical-takeoff interceptors and a smaller number of CATOBAR bombers & night fighters), I like the idea of using Vertijets as a backup in the event of total catapult malfunctions (because I like that World Navy aircraft carrier in Thunderbirds), and I like the Shipbucket graph author's use of the Ryan Model 115C instead of a pure Vertijet, if only for the possibility of conventional, arrested recovery- in fact, Vertijet-style landing on a ship is too much for my ameteur mind to comprehend  ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 02:36:00 PM by dy031101 »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #303 on: March 01, 2019, 02:52:17 AM »
So much detail in such a small scale.


Tamiya 1:350th scale USS Enterprise (CVN-65) built by by Jorge Evandro

Click on image or html to view at Hyperscale.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #304 on: June 15, 2019, 03:57:47 AM »
An interesting photo showing the size comparison between HMAS Melbourne and the USS Enterprise:

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #305 on: July 10, 2019, 02:05:44 PM »
Is anyone aware of any of the navies that operated the Majestic-class aircraft carrier ever studied/considered incorporating a 'deck-edge' aircraft lift in place of the aft 'mid flight-deck lift', so as to not inhibit flight operations?
Would such a 'deck-edge' aircraft lift be obtainable in terms of engineering, in the case of a major refit?

MAD

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #306 on: July 11, 2019, 02:37:51 AM »
Would such a 'deck-edge' aircraft lift be obtainable in terms of engineering, in the case of a major refit?
With enough time and money, just about anything is possible. Is it likely, though, is the question.

Given the small size of the ships, weight and balance are critical things and hanging a 60's era fighter/ASW aircraft out on a heavy elevator at maximum distance from the centreline isn't going to be a trivial thing. Being so small, there are few places to put an elevator that don't get in the way of operations and can be managed from a balance POV. Possible one elevator just forward of the island and one on the port side right aft. The aft elevator would be unusable during recovery and the fwd elevator might be unusable during cat shots. Which is not too different that the arrangement with the CL elevators, which may be why they weren't moved in the first place.

To move them would mean a reasonably substantial rearrangement of the internals of the hangar deck plus making structural access out through the sides of the ship. Again., doable, but not trivial and, given the commercial nature of these ships' design, possibly structurally unsound.

But, as the song says, if "you got the money honey, I got the elevators" or words to that effect...


Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #307 on: July 11, 2019, 04:12:15 AM »
Thanks for your informative reply tankmodelet!

Very interesting perspective, which makes sense. I've got something in the works with jonesthetank, and it just crossed my mind - 'did any of the operators of the Majestic class consider such a modification, considering the longevity of the design, which ironically were designed and build for a life expectancy of what 3-years. 😯
Any how, was hoping such a practical modification/application (Iwo Jima class LPH type elevator for example) might have improved flight operations and tempo .....

No point asking about the feasibility of substituting gas turbines for their boiler power plant then 😬

Thanks again

MAD
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 02:50:17 PM by M.A.D »

Offline Jonesthetank

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #308 on: July 11, 2019, 04:20:54 AM »
Uh oh, I feel another descent into the Shipbucket back catalogue coming on!

Ready when you are!

Mark

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #309 on: July 11, 2019, 07:44:44 AM »
Uh oh, I feel another descent into the Shipbucket back catalogue coming on!

Ready when you are!

Mark

😂😂You mean I haven't broken your mind yet Mark?😂😂

Believe it or not, I dreamed of this conversation/modification the other night! I put it down to the flu I've been suffering, obviously making me somewhat delusional, as I have to admit, I much prefer dreaming of beautiful scantily dressed woman serving on the mortar line!!😯

But alas Mark, this modification to the Majestic-class doesn't sound practical or cost effective 😩

I'll hopefully email you tomorrow, if that's ok?

MAD

Offline Jonesthetank

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #310 on: July 11, 2019, 04:57:48 PM »
Hi Rob,

I think changing the drawings of HMAS Sydney or Melbourne would be easy, but I suspect in the real world the effort of the conversion to deck edge lifts would have bankrupted the RAN if not the whole of the ADF!

Quote
😂😂You mean I haven't broken your mind yet Mark?😂😂
- I'm married, have 3 kids and used to be a primary school teacher - your ideas and requests are no problem by comparison!!

Email when you can, my mood may be dependent on the outcome of the semi-final at Edgbaston today  ;D

Cheers

Mark

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #311 on: July 12, 2019, 03:41:32 AM »
I suspect in the real world the effort of the conversion to deck edge lifts would have bankrupted the RAN if not the whole of the ADF!

Yes, probably be easier to acquire a complete new carrier.  I could only see such a mod going ahead if there were no other options and even then it would be questionable.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #312 on: July 12, 2019, 11:59:30 PM »
No point asking about the feasibility of substituting gas turbines for their boiler power plant then 😬
The technical feasibility of changing the steam turbines for gas turbines is probably easier than the elevator question. The financial feasibility is worse, however.

Technically, you gain in economy, manpower requirements and especially internal volume in the engine room. You lose in needing to add significant air intake and exhaust/cooling and heat recovery exchangers and, in the balance, you are significantly ahead, to be sure. But, financially! Hoo, boy, is it expensive. It could only be done at a major refit and, from a timing perspective, probably should be done when an angled deck was added, it's that level of major change. But the angled decks were added 10-15 years before effective naval gas turbine systems were available.

Still, if you were doing it, you'd need to open up the ship, right down to the keel, pull out boilers, steam turbines and recuperators, install gas turbines, new much larger airways (in and out) and new higher efficiency recuperators. New stacks, rejig the island to manage that, new bunkerage, piping and pumps to manage the lighter crude/kerosene used for naval gas turbines and then reallocate the interior spaces to use the volume you free up from eliminating the boilers and all the steam trunking.

You's still need steam generation capability, though, if you keep the cats. And that may be why the US went from oil fired steam turbines to nuke steam turbines. Simply because they absolutely needed steam, anyway, to run the cats.

If steam cats are retained it simply may not make any sense to delete the boilers. If you switch to pure helo ops or VTOL/ski jump ops, then going to gas turbine may be useful. The Brit Invincible-class carriers are all GT powered and none have ever had a cat.

Quote
Thanks again
Pas de probleme, mon ami.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #313 on: July 13, 2019, 09:46:40 PM »
Thank you once again tankmodeler, very informative, and a good deterant 😉

Guess that means scratch one major carrier update 😩

MAD

Offline kerick

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #314 on: July 13, 2019, 10:12:59 PM »
Sounds like it would be easier to build a new ship design from the keel up.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #315 on: July 14, 2019, 04:47:28 AM »
Sounds like it would be easier to build a new ship design from the keel up.

Probably even cheaper still to buy a second hand one from someone else...
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #316 on: July 14, 2019, 08:39:34 PM »
This sounds like the discussions in the UK in the early 50s, the RN wanted new carriers and the government wanted to rebuild old ones because they thought it was more economical.  The Government got its way, it turned out to be hideously expensive and inefficient with the end result being the progressive down sizing and eventual retirement of the strike carrier fleet.  Apparently Lord Mountbatten was furious when he was advised that the government had approved the reconstruction of the armoured fleet carriers and the completion of the Tiger Class cruisers instead of the desired new build carriers that would have been similar in size to the USNs Midways but designed with all the modern features, angled deck, steam catapults etc.


Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #317 on: August 18, 2019, 03:15:04 AM »
A week after the Battle of Midway  the USN proposed to finish it's currently building battleships the Iowa class as full scale full sized aircraft carriers similar in appearance to then under construction Essex class:



by Tzoli on deviantart
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #318 on: August 18, 2019, 12:00:15 PM »
Would have been interesting to see USS Kentucky and USS Illinois completed like that.  Wonder what a similar conversion of a Montana-class would look like?  By the same token, I've been doodling concepts for a FACES II conversion of a Montana-class.

Along the same lines, since the RN looked at battlecarrier hybrids of the Lion-class, how about the equivalent of a FACES II conversion of an HMS Vanguard that wasn't scrapped in 1960 or thereabouts?

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #319 on: August 19, 2019, 11:10:38 AM »
Found on Facebook.

"How's this for a what-if (From the Special Hobbies FB page, at the IPMS Nats) - Vought F5Us operating from a converted California-class battleship"

Work in progress ::

I am giving up listing them. They all end up on the shelf of procrastination anyways.

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Offline finsrin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #320 on: August 20, 2019, 02:53:20 PM »
Iowa class based rendering and battleship-carrier are inspiring for builds.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #321 on: October 19, 2019, 09:42:07 AM »
Royal Navy aircraft carrier flight operations video showing the full evolution from launch to recovery with Scimitars, Sea Vixens, and a trio of Gannets. 
Launch & Recover (1960)

***edit***

Found another one this morning: Hands To Flying Stations (1975)


***another edit***

Another video this morning.  This time it is all aboot the HMCS Bonaventure (CVL 22) with some nice shots of the ship and aircraft. 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:44:19 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #322 on: November 02, 2019, 03:05:10 AM »
Some photos of the Chinese Liaoning:


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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #323 on: November 26, 2019, 08:36:28 PM »
Been reading retired RAN chief David Shackletons paper (doctoral thesis) on the effects of the introduction of the Charles F Adams class destroyers into the RAN and was surprised to read that Sir John Collins was told that the modernised Majestic Class CVL HMAS Melbourne, then being completed in the UK, would be incapable of operating, or even being modernised to operate the next generation of carrier aircraft, i.e. Scimitar and Sea Vixen.  Collins apparently requested no one inform the Australian government of this as he feared they may cancel the acquisition of Melbourne, the modernisation of Sydney and get out of the carrier business all together.



Offline M.A.D

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #324 on: November 30, 2019, 11:21:00 AM »
Been reading retired RAN chief David Shackletons paper (doctoral thesis) on the effects of the introduction of the Charles F Adams class destroyers into the RAN and was surprised to read that Sir John Collins was told that the modernised Majestic Class CVL HMAS Melbourne, then being completed in the UK, would be incapable of operating, or even being modernised to operate the next generation of carrier aircraft, i.e. Scimitar and Sea Vixen.  Collins apparently requested no one inform the Australian government of this as he feared they may cancel the acquisition of Melbourne, the modernisation of Sydney and get out of the carrier business all together.

How interesting, yet disturbing Volkodav.
So it appears that the RAN was willing to facilitate a known and appreciated obsolecene carrier design, so as to seemingly keep the RAN fingers in the Defence Budget.😯😞

Sorry, getting a little off topic, but just finished reading 'New sub fleet blows out to $225 billion' https://www.nambuccaguardian.com.au/story/6517803/new-sub-fleet-blows-out-to-225-billion/ and I must say, the more and more I read about Australia's Military Aquasition Process, and the numerous dud programs we've got as a result,
I think Australia is seriously overdue for the needs of a Royal Commission into Defence Aquasition and Politics!!


MAD
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:22:55 AM by M.A.D »