Beyond The Sprues

Current and Finished Projects => Physical Models => Aero-space => : Old Wombat November 10, 2018, 04:51:10 PM

: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 10, 2018, 04:51:10 PM
Base kit is a Tamiya 1/48 Bristol Beaufighter TF.Mk.X to which I'll be adding parts sourced from the remains of an Italeri 1/48 S-2E/G Tracker.

Those parts will be the wing-fold interior details & the hook ... Possibly plus anything else which may look cool & serve a potential purpose.

At the moment it's all just a pile of sprues in the workspace & a vague plan forming in my head.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: buzzbomb November 10, 2018, 05:21:14 PM
So clearly you are back in country and back at the bench. Unless you took your travel build kit ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 10, 2018, 08:16:39 PM
Yep. Great holiday ;D spoiled by having to return to work three days ago (Thursday) :icon_sueno:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: GTX_Admin November 11, 2018, 02:56:15 AM
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l23/chris7421/SeaBeau.jpg)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 11, 2018, 03:21:48 PM
Thanks, Greg! :smiley:

Yeah, something like that but I'll probably have the fold further out (although that screws with the 3-part wing plan) & lose the machine guns.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Camthalion November 12, 2018, 05:43:22 AM
looks interesting
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 12, 2018, 08:29:27 PM
1st cuts made & glue applied.

Hook & hook fuselage section of the Tracker reduced by about 6mm, which is roughly 210mm (81/2") IRL, & glued back together, narrower & shorter.

Outer wings glued together, as I need to be able to gauge how to work the fold parts into the wing, which has a much deeper chord than the Tracker but only about 2/3 the span, & I'll probably do the tail & tail-planes before I go to bed.


Note: A quick check of the Beau against the Grebe shows the Beau to be smaller in comparison than I expected, although most of that difference is forward of the wings.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 14, 2018, 09:27:35 PM
Wings cut 5mm out from the air intakes on the leading edge.

Excellent spot for the wing fold, if losing the .303 Brownings isn't an issue (&, apparently it wasn't as I've read that Coastal Command Beaufighters often had the wing guns removed) but it looks like I'm going to have to scratch-build at least 3/4 of the wing structure & fold mechanism because there is no way the Tracker's fold pieces are suitable as is (far too small).

Photos will be coming but I've got to get a new debit cash card up & running to get my SmugMug subscription up & running again (it ran out while I was on holidays & so did the current Load-&-Go card).


Now, gents, a question: As I have to scratch build so much, do I make the wing fold a manual system or a hydraulic one? ???
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler November 15, 2018, 03:40:51 AM
Now, gents, a question: As I have to scratch build so much, do I make the wing fold a manual system or a hydraulic one? ???
It's a big heavy wing and swinging it around a pitching deck would be a right pain and dangerous to boot. Hydraulic. Plus it allows you to have the aircraft bombed up (say rockets on the outboard stub pylons) and still unfold them where manual would be a bit much to expect. It makes for greater operational flexibility and faster turnaround on deck.

Or so the Sea Beau deck crews always said...  ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 15, 2018, 06:33:45 AM
Now, gents, a question: As I have to scratch build so much, do I make the wing fold a manual system or a hydraulic one? ???
It's a big heavy wing and swinging it around a pitching deck would be a right pain and dangerous to boot. Hydraulic. Plus it allows you to have the aircraft bombed up (say rockets on the outboard stub pylons) and still unfold them where manual would be a bit much to expect. It makes for greater operational flexibility and faster turnaround on deck.

Or so the Sea Beau deck crews always said...  ;)

That was my thinking, too, but I thought I'd ask for suggestions, in case there was a safer & more efficient manual system rather than purely muscling the thing into place.

To quote myself from WhatifModelers, when it was suggested that a manual system would be more "in period";

: Old Wombat
According to information I have the Avenger & Hellcat both used hydraulic wing fold systems on the more complex "Sto-Wing" aft folding system due to the weight of their wings & they definitely fit the period (even the Wildcat had a hydraulic system for a while but it was heavy & Grumman found that the fold could be achieved by 2 men just as quickly, so they stopped fitting them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bh3CKw_HLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bh3CKw_HLk)

My fold is pretty close to half of the Beaufighter's wing, which would make it easily heavy enough to justify a hydraulic wing fold & is (over) vertical which makes it difficult to do manually. However, if someone can come up with a suitable (read "easy & safe") manual system I'm all eyes!
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 22, 2018, 07:44:43 PM
Quick update, as I still can't do pic's yet. (Soon, I promise!)

As certain parts will be open & some of the innards will be visible I'm doing some internal detail work. Nothing exact or consistent with any one type (it's getting both Bristol & DAP details, some of which are inconsistent) but at least make it look like the inside of an aircraft.

I should be finished with them tonight & I intend taking some photo's which I hope to be able to show you tomorrow.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kerick November 23, 2018, 04:57:59 AM
Ah, hope springs eternal!
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Robomog November 23, 2018, 07:33:17 AM
Some day my prints will come !

(Exits stage left............)

Mog
>^-.-^<
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kerick November 23, 2018, 10:24:14 AM
Good one!
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 23, 2018, 12:43:47 PM
Well, I didn't get the job finished BUT I did take photo's & sort out my SmugMug account!

So, here are the few photo's I've taken so far;

Folded wings:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-7cchJxt/0/fd4347a8/L/DSCN7574-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-dP37Pfm/0/2fec5761/L/DSCN7575-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-MXDhFgz/0/05f33ad8/L/DSCN7576-L.jpg)

Interior detailing (I'm slow at this):

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-bHjs35s/0/c22bb3ab/L/DSCN7577-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-X8V7vKF/0/7f71ae27/L/DSCN7579-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-9W68rPH/0/0c86b0bf/L/DSCN7581-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-8Wpvk24/0/d854167c/L/DSCN7582-L.jpg)

There's still more detailing (a few more electrical boxes, radios, folding map table, pipes & wiring - things like that) & painting of the interior to go before I can button her up.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler November 24, 2018, 01:02:52 AM
Oooooo! Me likey!
 :-*
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Jeffry Fontaine November 24, 2018, 02:24:25 AM
Looking good so far.  One question for you though, what about your wing guns?  In the interest of weight-savings would there been wing guns.  Since there are four 20mm Hispano's in the fuselage would the .303s be necessary for the torpedo attack/anti-shipping role? 
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: GTX_Admin November 24, 2018, 03:24:07 AM
Looking good
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Robomog November 24, 2018, 06:36:45 AM
This is shaping up nicely, my preferred scale is god's own 1/72 scale but I have to admit the bigger scales allow much more scope for detail.  Like the concept too Mr Wombat.

Mog
>^-.-^<
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 24, 2018, 07:31:45 PM
Thanks, guys! :smiley:


@ Jeffry: In Reply #4 I mentioned losing the wing guns & have since discovered that, more often than not, the Coastal Command TF Mk.X Beaufighters (Torbeaus) had their wing guns removed & the aircraft relied only on their heavier 20mm armament to save weight. So, yeah, as a weight-saving & space-for-the-hydraulics measure, the wing guns are going ... I just haven't puttied up the gaps, yet. ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 26, 2018, 03:49:39 PM
It appears I'm not the only person to build a folding-wing Beaufighter.

Marcel du Long sets a high standard to aim for:

(http://www.marceldulong.com/uploads/_enkeleAfbeeldingCrop/Beaufighter_03.jpg)

http://www.marceldulong.com/plastics/raaf-target-towing-bristol-beaufighter (http://www.marceldulong.com/plastics/raaf-target-towing-bristol-beaufighter)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: buzzbomb November 26, 2018, 04:13:21 PM
I hate those, "Slam, cop that done it before" pix. it is gorgeous though.

Time for you to put your own stamp on this idea. Plus I actually think you wing fold placement is more practical as he oil cooler is still integral to the wing
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 26, 2018, 05:01:22 PM
Time for you to put your own stamp on this idea. Plus I actually think you wing fold placement is more practical as he oil cooler is still integral to the wing

Workin' on it! ... Actually, I'm in the study avoiding being subjected to "Home & Away" ... But I will be working on it after 2000hrs! ;)

I considered where the wing fold went quite carefully before I made a decision. The major points for its location are (1) to reduce plumbing for the oil coolers & (2) to allow the outer wing to fold down over the lower wing to reduce the height of the aircraft. The penalty for that is a slightly wider foot-print but it's not that much wider than the tail-planes & I believe the lower height to be more important than taking up slightly more deck space.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: KiwiZac November 28, 2018, 05:45:23 AM
Man, those panel lines... :(
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 November 28, 2018, 06:20:59 AM
Man, those panel lines... :(

Yeah! just horrible -- and German style tires (tyres)   ???  not seen any photos of any Brit aircraft that had tires like that during the war.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 28, 2018, 08:19:58 AM
Man, those panel lines... :(

Yeah! just horrible -- and German style tires (tyres)   ???  not seen any photos of any Brit aircraft that had tires like that during the war.

Can't say I'm a fan of the over-worked panel lines but the tyres look like the kit supplied parts & the resin bulgies I have.

Actually, it's the tyres that are concerning me with my build at the moment.

What I have are the regular Beaufighter tyres, which are the round-walled, soft-sided tyres used for land operations. I'm wondering whether I should find some straighter-sided, hard-wall tyres for naval operations & I've had a bit of a look but everything I can find for naval aircraft of a similar vintage (right up to the Tracker) have a smaller diameter than the Beaufighter tyres.

Any suggestions? Otherwise I'll just have a go at modifying the kit wheels, unless I get lazy & just go with the kit wheels as they are (I won't be using the resin bulgies on this build because the bulge is very wide & shows the tyres must have been quite soft).
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 November 28, 2018, 09:28:04 AM

 but the tyres look like the kit supplied parts & the resin bulgies I have.


not sure why (see below)



Actually, it's the tyres that are concerning me with my build at the moment.

What I have are the regular Beaufighter tyres, which are the round-walled, soft-sided tyres used for land operations. I'm wondering whether I should find some straighter-sided, hard-wall tyres for naval operations & I've had a bit of a look but everything I can find for naval aircraft of a similar vintage (right up to the Tracker) have a smaller diameter than the Beaufighter tyres.

Any suggestions? Otherwise I'll just have a go at modifying the kit wheels, unless I get lazy & just go with the kit wheels as they are (I won't be using the resin bulgies on this build because the bulge is very wide & shows the tyres must have been quite soft).

What diameter are they Guy ?
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 28, 2018, 09:39:33 AM
23mm or a touch over 7/8"

So, converted to RW; 80.5cm or 31.4"(+/-)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 November 28, 2018, 09:43:55 AM
Sorry, I can't help there, I forgot this is 1/48 and I was going to suggest using something in that scale if it was a 1/72 kit. For my Sabre Mosquito I had made up some wheels which were to be as big as a B-25 wheel
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 28, 2018, 09:47:03 AM
All good! :smiley:

Mind you, the photo you posted is good! It made me realise how over-scale the upper undercarriage parts are on the kit, which works in my favour, as I don't have to bulk them up for naval op's! 8)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kerick November 28, 2018, 10:57:24 AM

 but the tyres look like the kit supplied parts & the resin bulgies I have.


not sure why (see below)



Actually, it's the tyres that are concerning me with my build at the moment.

What I have are the regular Beaufighter tyres, which are the round-walled, soft-sided tyres used for land operations. I'm wondering whether I should find some straighter-sided, hard-wall tyres for naval operations & I've had a bit of a look but everything I can find for naval aircraft of a similar vintage (right up to the Tracker) have a smaller diameter than the Beaufighter tyres.

Any suggestions? Otherwise I'll just have a go at modifying the kit wheels, unless I get lazy & just go with the kit wheels as they are (I won't be using the resin bulgies on this build because the bulge is very wide & shows the tyres must have been quite soft).

What diameter are they Guy ?

Those tires look like you could twist them around and make animal shapes out of them!! Did these aircraft have to land and take off in a marsh?
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 28, 2018, 11:20:03 AM
Brit's tended to use low-pressure tyres for land-based aircraft as it allowed them to operate from grass/unprepared airstrips, where the spread of the tyres reduced ground pressure & stopped the aircraft sinking into the ground ... & the Beaufighter was a heavy beastie!

High-pressure tyres require a solid (concrete) runway for land-based op's, limiting where they could be used (during WW2) but are preferable for carrier op's when slamming onto a deck, when low-pressure tyres could "bottom out" & be damaged/blown out.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat November 29, 2018, 04:46:06 PM
Waiting for "Home & Away" to finish, so I can venture back out to the modelling site.

Should be able to get the detailing work done to the decal stage, minus the Eduard 1/48 Ammo Belts 12.7mm which are working their way towards me via AusPost.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler November 30, 2018, 01:21:22 AM
High-pressure tyres require a solid (concrete) runway for land-based op's, limiting where they could be used (during WW2) but are preferable for carrier op's when slamming onto a deck, when low-pressure tyres could "bottom out" & be damaged/blown out.
Because you're considering high pressure tires, they could be considerably smaller than the low pressure originals. There's no need to keep them the same diameter, in fact, it's probably more realistic if you end up with smaller diameter and/or narrower high pressure tires. That's one of the reasons that they keep jacking up tire pressure, to get the wheel and tires sizes down and save weight and stowage space.

A Skyraider is approximately the same weight so those wheels, for carrier use, would be about right. Get y'self a pair o' Spad wheels, that'll do the trick.

 :smiley:

Paul
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 November 30, 2018, 03:55:57 AM
Or DH Hornet wheels
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 03, 2018, 11:30:30 AM
It's taken a bit longer than planned but that's normal.

Here are the internal mod's done so far. Still waiting on ammo belts & .50cal MG, whilst wondering if I should fork out for some resin seats.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-r365DJ2/0/714e0267/XL/IMG_2040-XL.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-HWV9v5g/0/ec959802/XL/IMG_2044-XL.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-GNZdqNk/0/0340c774/XL/IMG_2045-XL.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-zV5mG8h/0/41e4be7b/XL/IMG_2042-XL.jpg)

A bit rough & spectacularly inaccurate but suitable for "busying up" the inside.


Cheers! :icon_beer:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: KiwiZac December 03, 2018, 06:15:10 PM
The interior of your navalised Beaufighter is inaccurate?  ;D
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 03, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
Yep! ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 10, 2018, 11:35:48 AM
Started working on the wing fold system ... This could take a while! :-\
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: finsrin December 10, 2018, 02:23:55 PM
Interior is miiighty fine.
Wing fold system --- more power to you.  Seems like severe plastic punishment.  Speaking from experience cuz put myself thru plenty of that.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 10, 2018, 09:17:08 PM
Thanks, Bill! :smiley:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 13, 2018, 02:58:43 PM
[sound of wind whistling by at high speed]

Old Wombat:     So far, so good!
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 18, 2018, 08:41:16 AM
This is where I'm at with the wing folds.

Inner wing sections a couple of moves short of done. I have the connections for the outer wing hydraulics & electricals to fit & the tube support for the inner section of the hydraulic ram (the bit that holds the outer wing up when finished).

(https://photos.smugmug.com/RAN-Sea-Beau/i-5TTKhfB/0/05ab89ec/XL/IMG_2046-XL.jpg)

Once they're done it's on to the outer wings.


Thanks for lookin'! :thumbsup:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Jeffry Fontaine December 18, 2018, 01:29:03 PM
That inner wing detail is most impressive! 
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 18, 2018, 05:04:17 PM
Thanks, Jeff! :icon_alabanza:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: andonio64 December 18, 2018, 08:55:41 PM
I agree, impressive detail, I think when you'll paint them they'll look the part
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 December 18, 2018, 09:46:29 PM
That inner wing detail is most impressive!

Totally agree ----- and very interested in what you come up for the hinge itself ----
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler December 18, 2018, 11:16:28 PM
the tube support for the inner section of the hydraulic ram (the bit that holds the outer wing up when finished).
This is looking very good.

You might want to consider adding a mechanical stay brace as well as the ram, either in the wing fold area or between the wing and a hardpoint on the fuselage/wing, somewhere. Frequently wing folds have a ground-installed stay to support the wing in case pressure comes off the hydraulic system (or to allow you to purposely reduce hydraulics pressure on the ground to save weight in valves and actuators, etc.).

Just a thought from an aerospace engineering pedant.  ;D
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 19, 2018, 12:20:16 AM
the tube support for the inner section of the hydraulic ram (the bit that holds the outer wing up when finished).

This is looking very good.

You might want to consider adding a mechanical stay brace as well as the ram, either in the wing fold area or between the wing and a hardpoint on the fuselage/wing, somewhere. Frequently wing folds have a ground-installed stay to support the wing in case pressure comes off the hydraulic system (or to allow you to purposely reduce hydraulics pressure on the ground to save weight in valves and actuators, etc.).

Just a thought from an aerospace engineering pedant.  ;D


You mean something like these?

(http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/GRUMMAN_S-2_Tracker_Walkaround_N12-153582_Nowra_2014/content/bin/images/large/GRUMMAN_S-2_Tracker_Walkaround_N12-153582_Nowra_2014_45_GrubbyFingers.jpg)

Well aware, having put a few in place in my time. ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 19, 2018, 12:23:34 AM
That inner wing detail is most impressive!

Totally agree ----- and very interested in what you come up for the hinge itself ----

The hinges or the fold mechanism? ???

The hinges are the little white bits protruding above the wings.

For the folding mechanism I'm cheating, big-time, & using the unused bits from the Tracker I chopped up to make the Grumman Grebe. ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 19, 2018, 12:24:58 AM
Thank you all, gents! It's nice to know people are looking & thinking about a build. :smiley: :icon_alabanza:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 19, 2018, 01:03:26 AM
I'm hoping it looks a bit better under paint but it does, to me, look reasonably like a simplified/primitive version of the Tracker wing fold that inspired it.

(http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/GRUMMAN_S-2_Tracker_Walkaround_N12-153582_Nowra_2014/content/bin/images/large/GRUMMAN_S-2_Tracker_Walkaround_N12-153582_Nowra_2014_03_GrubbyFingers.jpg)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: finsrin December 19, 2018, 01:35:20 AM
This build is so ambitious.  Way beyond me.  Best wishes for success.
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: GTX_Admin December 19, 2018, 02:46:47 AM
Looking good
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: kitnut617 December 19, 2018, 06:50:08 AM
That inner wing detail is most impressive!

Totally agree ----- and very interested in what you come up for the hinge itself ----

The hinges or the fold mechanism? ???

The hinges are the little white bits protruding above the wings.

For the folding mechanism I'm cheating, big-time, & using the unused bits from the Tracker I chopped up to make the Grumman Grebe. ;)

Hinge/fold mechanism   :smiley:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 19, 2018, 07:53:18 AM
Thanks, Greg! :smiley:


Edit: Oops! :-[ And Bill! :smiley:
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler December 20, 2018, 11:42:34 PM
You mean something like these?
Just and exactly like those.  ;D

You have things well in hand.

And what wing fold stay braces have you got experience with, if I may ask? Trackers?

Paul
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 21, 2018, 12:04:35 AM
Yup! RAN FAA Able Seaman ATA (Air Technical Aircraft = Engines & Airframes) VS-851 playing with Grumman S2E/G Trackers. :))
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: buzzbomb December 21, 2018, 07:35:42 PM
Damned impressive how symmetrical it all is.
Well done
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: Old Wombat December 21, 2018, 08:49:20 PM
Thanks, Brian! :smiley:

Here's hoping I can do the same for the outer wing. ;)
: Re: 1/48 Sea Beau
: tankmodeler December 21, 2018, 10:54:23 PM
Yup! RAN FAA Able Seaman ATA (Air Technical Aircraft = Engines & Airframes) VS-851 playing with Grumman S2E/G Trackers. :))
Cool!

When I was in university in the late 70s/early 80s back in Newfoundland we used to get regular flyovers by two twin-radial aircraft. The Ex-RCN Trackers operating on fisheries patrol and Canso waterbombers.

And even within a building, you could tell the difference between the two. The Canso was very "blappy" in the exhaust noise while the Trackers had a better radial growl. That and the fact that the Canso noise seemed to hang forever in the air as the aircraft took about an hour and a half to cross the visible sky at low altitude. I sear I could see a Canso come into view as I stepped into class, attend the full lecture, finish the problem set and leave the room to still see it just passing the other horizon. I'm sure I could walk faster...

Paul