Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Completed GBs => Group and Themed Builds => Treadhead/Armour GB => Topic started by: Claymore on October 02, 2016, 07:14:09 AM

Title: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 02, 2016, 07:14:09 AM
I couldn't very well let a Treadhead/Armour GB go by without submitting at least one build, so...

This is a concept design I have been kicking around for a couple of years and now seems like a good time to give it a go.

(http://i.imgur.com/Tw89yRd.png)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 02, 2016, 07:39:34 AM
 :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 02, 2016, 07:51:35 AM
Very interesting concept.  When are you going to start cutting plastic for this one?
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 02, 2016, 08:23:38 AM
As per LemonJello's instructions, I started yesterday (1st October).  Fortunately, I had both an old M3 Lee and a Grant in my stash. Nothing is ever easy of course and trying to fabricate a mirror image casemate has been 'fun'. However, things are moving along nicely and I will post some picks soonest.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: LemonJello on October 02, 2016, 08:31:25 AM
Very cool.  Looking forward to seeing this take shape.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 02, 2016, 08:40:15 AM
As per LemonJello's instructions, I started yesterday (1st October).  Fortunately, I had both an old M3 Lee and a Grant in my stash. Nothing is ever easy of course and trying to fabricate a mirror image casemate has been 'fun'. However, things are moving along nicely and I will post some picks soonest.
I suspect that portion of the project will be the most difficult in trying to create the left hand side casemate.  Still an excellent concept and will be waiting for those WIP images :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 02, 2016, 09:19:07 AM
Looks very interesting
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 02, 2016, 11:40:26 AM
Very cool.  Looking forward to seeing this take shape.

Me too.
Great concept.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: buzzbomb on October 02, 2016, 07:26:30 PM
Oh lordy, this vehicle is bliss.
The next sound you may hear is a stash rummage to get in this build as well

Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 02, 2016, 08:40:14 PM
As promised... Tis early days yet and most of the work is still very rough and ready but the basics are there (I wasn't entirely sure that a mirror image sponson was doable given the parts I had). 

The M3 Jackson ('Stonewall') FSV lives!!!  :o

Sorry for the poor pics but photography really isn't my thing...

(http://i.imgur.com/nNe0spk.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/vV4TPLG.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/hQOR4WZ.jpg)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on October 02, 2016, 10:15:40 PM
Interesting! :D

How'd you do the left sponson? A few judicious cuts & flip the Lee's sponson by the look of it. You putting a .30cal or two on top? ???

I wouldn't want to be the left-side gunner, squished up against the hull side like that, though. :icon_crap:

Oh lordy, this vehicle is bliss.
The next sound you may hear is a stash rummage to get in this build as well

Me, too!

Even though I've already got 2 armour builds on the go - can't have enough armour! ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Crbad on October 02, 2016, 10:34:47 PM
Cool idea and great execution! It has an almost steampunk/Warhammer feel to it. : :D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 12:54:27 AM
Interesting! :D

How'd you do the left sponson? A few judicious cuts & flip the Lee's sponson by the look of it. You putting a .30cal or two on top? ???

I wouldn't want to be the left-side gunner, squished up against the hull side like that, though. :icon_crap:

Pretty much as you figured - a lot of cutting and flipping upside down and yes 50s or 30s up top!!

You are absolutely right re the gunner in the left-side sponson.  As you can see from my original concept art the gunner would be on the inside but there was no easy way or reversing that particular part.  Now that you have spotted the issue, I am going to have to do something about it... Bugger!  :( ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 12:54:56 AM
Cool idea and great execution! It has an almost steampunk/Warhammer feel to it. : :D

Thanks mate.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Logan Hartke on October 03, 2016, 02:09:33 AM
The M3 Jackson ('Stonewall') FSV lives!!!  :o

([url]http://i.imgur.com/nNe0spk.jpg[/url])

Named for the famous "Stonewall" Jack...Elam.   ;)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 03, 2016, 02:18:23 AM
Interesting! :D

How'd you do the left sponson? A few judicious cuts & flip the Lee's sponson by the look of it. You putting a .30cal or two on top? ???

I wouldn't want to be the left-side gunner, squished up against the hull side like that, though. :icon_crap:

Pretty much as you figured - a lot of cutting and flipping upside down and yes 50s or 30s up top!!

You are absolutely right re the gunner in the left-side sponson.  As you can see from my original concept art the gunner would be on the inside but there was no easy way or reversing that particular part.  Now that you have spotted the issue, I am going to have to do something about it... Bugger!  :( ;)

Can you separate the top of the left sponson and then rotate it counter clockwise?

This really looks good! It will certainly give rivet counters something to do!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 02:58:07 AM
Can you separate the top of the left sponson and then rotate it counter clockwise?

This really looks good! It will certainly give rivet counters something to do!

Not easily, but then again nothing truly worth doing is ever easy...  :icon_meditation:
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 03:56:21 AM
Dang! Cutting out the top of the sponson is not an option.  The plastic is about 2.5mm thick and as tough as old boots; having very nearly sliced the top of my thumb off, it's just not worth the risk!

On to Plan B then  - remove the current top detail and rebuild it anew in the right place...  :(
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 03, 2016, 04:54:32 AM
Looking good and with that minor issue of the left gunner's position becoming an obstacle, is there a chance to modify both casemate guns so that they share common features?  Not suggesting a complete makeover but maybe a simplification of the the features that comprise the gun and how it is mounted so you can achieve that mirror image with the left gunner being positioned inside instead of next to the outside wall.  That way you would have the uniformity of a mas production weapons system plus symmetry. 
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 03, 2016, 06:01:59 AM
Regarding what Jeff said.  Could sand both sides clean.  Glue similar looking pieces on in mirror image.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 06:27:55 AM
Think I am still going to go with leaving the right sponsor top detail as is and rebuild the left to represent the gunner being on the inside. I don't think that major gun redesign would be needed as the arrangement would be not unlike the side sponsor guns in the WW1 Mk IV, etc.  Anyway it would be a shame to lose the aiming periscopes which naturally sit in the right place.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 03, 2016, 07:21:20 AM
Think I am still going to go with leaving the right sponsor top detail as is and rebuild the left to represent the gunner being on the inside. I don't think that major gun redesign would be needed as the arrangement would be not unlike the side sponsor guns in the WW1 Mk IV, etc.  Anyway it would be a shame to lose the aiming periscopes which naturally sit in the right place.

Funny you should mention the WW1 Mk4 tank as I was thinking of that vehicle when I first saw your WIP images and how it reminded me of a WW1 style tank such as the MkIV :)

Hmmmm, MkIV tank with Grant or Lee features might be another interesting diversion. 
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 03, 2016, 08:26:20 AM
Gun redesign on inside of tank is not an issue because we see only the outside.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Rickshaw on October 03, 2016, 10:21:10 AM
You will need to change the aiming periscope on the top of the left hand gun position to mirror image the right hand one.  The reason why the original M3 Medium had a gun on the right hand side was because the gunner was seated on the gun's left hand side in real life.   There is no room in your vehicle for the gunner to be seated there so they'd have to put him on the right hand side of the gun, where the driver is seated.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 03, 2016, 11:13:58 AM
Just have one gunner aiming both guns. He would be a busy fellow.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 03, 2016, 02:19:00 PM
You will need to change the aiming periscope on the top of the left hand gun position to mirror image the right hand one.  The reason why the original M3 Medium had a gun on the right hand side was because the gunner was seated on the gun's left hand side in real life.   There is no room in your vehicle for the gunner to be seated there so they'd have to put him on the right hand side of the gun, where the driver is seated.

Quite so, see above discussion.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 03, 2016, 03:27:52 PM
This build is so inspiring its got me figuring a scaleorama of Testors 1/32 M3 into 1/72 monster.
Pretty much figured out how to 1/72ise it.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 04, 2016, 03:11:18 AM
Go for it!  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 04, 2016, 03:19:15 AM
Sounds like a land battleship! Or at least a cruiser....
Can't wait to see a thread for this!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Weaver on October 04, 2016, 08:27:31 AM
Presumably you now have another Grant hull that's been de-sponsoned: I wonder what you could do with that eh?  ;)

Just have one gunner aiming both guns. He would be a busy fellow.

Not as busy as all that if both guns were mechanically slaved to the sighting station for the RH gun. After all, what exactly is the point of having two identical calibre guns if not to put two shells into the same target?
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: LemonJello on October 04, 2016, 07:56:05 PM
The loader is the guy busting his hump - feeding two guns at a time all by his lonesome.

This is coming along smashingly. 
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: taiidantomcat on October 04, 2016, 10:52:55 PM
The loader is the guy busting his hump - feeding two guns at a time all by his lonesome.

Yut
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on October 05, 2016, 06:57:18 AM
Interesting looking. :D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on October 05, 2016, 09:01:57 AM
The loader is the guy busting his hump - feeding two guns at a time all by his lonesome.

This is coming along smashingly.

Why? The M3 had a crew of 6 (Grant) or 7 (Lee) which means you should have space for a driver, 2 gunners, 2 loaders & a commander (6-man crew).

However, as you're losing a bit of space to the second 75mm gun, slave the guns & make the gunner the commander (it's fire-support, after all, the infantry can give them the targets) & that gives you driver, gunner & 2 loaders, with the option of a commander if you feel the need. Thus either a 4-man or 5-man crew.

Simples! :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 05, 2016, 10:20:12 AM
And put another turret on top!   ;D :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: turtle on October 05, 2016, 11:05:14 AM
While I get the WHIF concept there's just a couple of things that defy 'logic' or need addressing:
1.  with 2 guns now you'll also have to increase your munitions storage, by a decent quantity if operating in the Fire Support role,
2.  with such limited traverse , the fire support role would be questionable at best if the guns are slaved.
One possible solution could be to move the driver forward into a reclined position which would free up valuable space - transferring the drive sprockets to the rear would assist (even more frontal space) and allow for dedicated gunner/loaders for each weapon.
Just my thoughts.
Where there's a will there's a way  ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2016, 04:47:20 PM
Maybe add a trailer for the extra mention storage?
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: LemonJello on October 05, 2016, 07:46:40 PM

Why? The M3 had a crew of 6 (Grant) or 7 (Lee) which means you should have space for a driver, 2 gunners, 2 loaders & a commander (6-man crew).

However, as you're losing a bit of space to the second 75mm gun, slave the guns & make the gunner the commander (it's fire-support, after all, the infantry can give them the targets) & that gives you driver, gunner & 2 loaders, with the option of a commander if you feel the need. Thus either a 4-man or 5-man crew.

Simples! :)

I like that solution, much better than the USMC's seemingly unspoken SOP of "work harder, not smarter."

Reducing crew size also frees up space for ammo within the hull, though a trailer or companion ammo carrier track would work in the fire support mission.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 06, 2016, 05:23:46 AM
Whilst all of this discussion is great, I think some folks are over thinking things. 

From my point of view, I am a great believer in keeping things as true to life as possible - I think this makes for more realistic and believable whiffs.  If we can learn anything from the history of AFVs, it is that history is fully of vehicles that were far from perfect.  Indeed the M3 itself is a prime example of a tank whose severe imitations were well known even at the time of its introduction into service and yet enter service it did.  Consequently, I am building my whiff in the sure and happy knowledge that its design is fraught with technical and tactical limitations.  In other words, no slaved gun controls, limited traverse for said guns, a six-man crew (full marks to the elder Wombat) and a probable ammunition load-out that is not ideal.

In the end, this model will depict a whiff AFV and there is absolutely no law that says whiffs have to always represent AFV that were perfect in every way.  Come to think of it, name me an AFV, any AFV, that is.  ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: ChernayaAkula on October 06, 2016, 07:49:31 AM
<...> If we can learn anything from the history of AFV, it is that history is fully of vehicles that were far from perfect. <...>
<...> there is absolutely no law that says whiffs have to always represent AFV that were perfect in every way.  Come to think of it, name me an AFV, any AFV, that is.  ;)

Very good points!  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 07, 2016, 05:23:36 AM
M3 Stonewall FSV Update

One or two more pics before the undercoat goes on to pull things together...

(http://i.imgur.com/rLzJNaf.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9dMyFkR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Wl3yL86.jpg)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 07, 2016, 05:41:50 AM
Coming together rather fast.  Hope the painting goes just as well for this project.  Will it be desert camouflage? 
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: The Big Gimper on October 07, 2016, 05:45:39 AM
Can't wait to see it finished and then sitting beside his other tank buddies as the next IPMS event along with the M3s boasting "I have two 75mms and you have only one!!!"  ;D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 07, 2016, 05:53:15 AM
"I have two 75mms and you have only one!!!"  ;D
Main gun envy? :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Weaver on October 07, 2016, 08:41:50 AM
In the end, this model will depict a whiff AFV and there is absolutely no law that says whiffs have to always represent AFV that were perfect in every way.  Come to think of it, name me an AFV, any AFV, that is.  ;)

Here, here! I always think it's a mistake to fall into the trap of thinking that your whiffs have to improve on reality. They don't: the most credible alternative histories aren't the perfect ones, they're the ones where people make interestingly different mistakes.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on October 07, 2016, 10:20:45 AM
Or make interestingly different compromises. ;)

 :) :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 07, 2016, 02:06:44 PM
Absolutely.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Volkodav on October 07, 2016, 02:24:01 PM
Or find themselves in a bind and have to make "perfectly good enough" substitute for "perfect"
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 07, 2016, 02:43:25 PM
Gas cans in back are your touch not part of kit - right ?
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 07, 2016, 09:28:27 PM
Gas cans in back are your touch not part of kit - right ?

Indeed - not sure yet whether they will end up as fuel or water.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 09, 2016, 02:15:12 AM
M3 Stonewall FSV Update

Here are the latest pics of the Stonewall FSV in its undercoat.  It never ceases to amaze me how a simple spray of paint helps pull everything together.  There's still a little bit of filling to do and a few rivets to add, as highlighted by the undercoat, but getting there...

(http://i.imgur.com/4uL6kwV.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Aa96o8r.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/fsU1pKV.jpg)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 09, 2016, 02:23:35 AM
Will it be desert camouflage?

Probably not as I want to go with a US 1st Armoured Division circa 1942 look.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: LemonJello on October 09, 2016, 02:26:54 AM
Just a tour-de-force of skills on display here.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 09, 2016, 02:33:04 AM
Blimey, most kind...  :-[ :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on October 09, 2016, 07:54:16 PM
Coming along beautifully, mate! 8)

Love it how a coat of primer ties everything together. My favourite stage. :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 09, 2016, 10:09:39 PM
This is top notch work! Wish I had thought of it!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 10, 2016, 03:51:00 AM
Thanks guys.

Just realised it's all a bit like a WW2 version of this beastie.

http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: buzzbomb on October 10, 2016, 05:52:02 AM
Thanks guys.

Just realised it's all a bit like a WW2 version of this beastie.

[url]http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg[/url] ([url]http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg[/url])


Well now you know where THEY got the idea from, the little know WW2 M3 version... Plagiarists !!!!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on October 10, 2016, 08:29:05 AM
Thanks guys.

Just realised it's all a bit like a WW2 version of this beastie.

[url]http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg[/url] ([url]http://i.imgur.com/j8slUoP.jpg[/url])


Well now you know where THEY got the idea from, the little know WW2 M3 version... Plagiarists !!!!


Cheeky buggers just left out the awesome traverse on the guns to get around breaching Patent legislation! Go get your claymore, Claymore! Bring me my broadsword & my cross of gold, as a talisman! Then we'll go & teach those beasts a lesson they wont soon forget!

;)





(Oops! Typo!)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 10, 2016, 03:09:30 PM
Ha, ha, and I thought I was mad!  ;D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 10, 2016, 03:53:30 PM
Combination of concept and build itself is super. :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 10, 2016, 06:02:42 PM
Combination of concept and build itself is super. :)

Thanks mate!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: tankmodeler on October 15, 2016, 03:30:06 AM
You may be too far along for this, but please, please, for the love of ghod, replace the 6 spoke wheels with real Sherman wheels (5 spoke) and replace the track with something that resembles a real track without the end connectors in the middle of the track pads?

As for some of the other comments, one could have an armoured box above the sponsons on either side with additional ammo. To increase the crew working area all one needs do is increase the height of the superstructure roof by about a foot and things get much easier serving the guns. This is a fire support vehicle, so height really doesn't matter. One can even then incorporate a rangefinder in an auxiliary turret with a greater field of view as did an SP proposal built on the earlier M2 Medium chassis.

Paul
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 16, 2016, 06:08:33 AM
Most of my whiffs tend to be made from my stock pile of existing models and many of these date back many, many years. Whilst this means that, generally, I am working from a fixed resource, it nevertheless means that expenses can be kept to a minimum - something that appeals greatly to my Scottish genes!  As a result of my Calvinistic reticence to parting with my cash, I am more than willing to accept that in the world of Alternative History an AFV which might otherwise have existed with a 5-spoke road wheel now lives with a 6-spoke wheel.  In other words, I have looked through my stash and cannot find any 5-spoke M3/M4 road wheels and I just can't be arsed spending out to replace the Tamiya real life inaccuracy.

Shoot me if you want, but in my AH world the M3 Stonewall FSV had 6-spoke wheels!

The Tamiya vinyl tracks are, to be fair, pretty crappy and might be replaced sometime in the future but right now, they are all I have and will just have to fit the bill. 

As for the rest I am going to keep things just the way they are. I really don't want my model to be the perfect solution to a M3 FSV, indeed half the fun of whiffing is to come up with something that is just as flawed (and therefore realistic) as about every other AFV in history.   ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 16, 2016, 06:38:47 AM
With parts making during the war farmed out to all kinds of small companies a crumpled, mutilated, spindled and water stained set of drawings resulted in a shipment of six spoke instead of five spoke wheels. Although perfectly functional, the War Dept didn't want to send these out on regular Shermans. Instead of scrapping perfectly good road wheels they were used on a short run vehicle that was already a collection of odd parts.

Problem solved!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 16, 2016, 06:44:15 AM
I couldn't have put it better myself!   ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 16, 2016, 06:52:31 AM
Wish I could come with an idea for the tracks but no luck. Pretty tough to explain away those.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 16, 2016, 07:17:08 AM
I have no idea why Tamiya would have made such a schoolboy error but at least they are easily enough removed and replaced at a later date.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Volkodav on October 16, 2016, 08:54:47 PM
Most of my whiffs tend to be made from my stock pile of existing models and many of these date back many, many years. Whilst this means that, generally, I am working from a fixed resource, it nevertheless means that expenses can be kept to a minimum - something that appeals greatly to my Scottish genes!  As a result of my Calvinistic reticence to parting with my cash, I am more than willing to accept that in the world of Alternative History an AFV which might otherwise have existed with a 5-spoke road wheel now lives with a 6-spoke wheel.  In other words, I have looked through my stash and cannot find any 5-spoke M3/M4 road wheels and I just can't be arsed spending out to replace the Tamiya real life inaccuracy.

Shoot me if you want, but in my AH world the M3 Stonewall FSV had 6-spoke wheels!

The Tamiya vinyl tracks are, to be fair, pretty crappy and might be replaced sometime in the future but right now, they are all I have and will just have to fit the bill. 

As for the rest I am going to keep things just the way they are. I really don't want my model to be the perfect solution to a M3 FSV, indeed half the fun of whiffing is to come up with something that is just as flawed (and therefore realistic) as about every other AFV in history.   ;)

You do a pretty good silk purse from a pigs ear so no complaints from me, in fact I reckon you do a better job rebirthing old models than I can do with the latest, greatest, state of the arts kits, so please, please, please, keep up the great work!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 16, 2016, 10:24:42 PM
You could always bury the tracks and wheels in "mud" and call it weathering.....
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 17, 2016, 05:01:54 AM
You do a pretty good silk purse from a pigs ear so no complaints from me, in fact I reckon you do a better job rebirthing old models than I can do with the latest, greatest, state of the arts kits, so please, please, please, keep up the great work!

You're most kind. Fear nought, so long as the stash holds out I shall carry on - and then I can always kit-bash my kit-bashes!  ;)

You could always bury the tracks and wheels in "mud" and call it weathering.....

 ;D Ah there is always an answer!  ;D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 17, 2016, 05:30:45 AM
@Claynmore - check your PM in-box ---------- Additional correspondence awaits your review :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on October 17, 2016, 05:54:42 AM
@Claynmore - check your PM in-box ---------- Additional correspondence awaits your review :)

Message on its way!  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on October 17, 2016, 09:10:42 AM
For me the concept and quality of changes you made is focus of this build.
Tracks-wheels accurate or not, it all looks great to me. :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 17, 2016, 10:42:57 AM
Ditto!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: tankmodeler on October 19, 2016, 12:53:16 AM
For me the concept and quality of changes you made is focus of this build.
Tracks-wheels accurate or not, it all looks great to me. :)
Oh, I know and I'm just poking a bit of fun at Claymore, it's just that on that kit the crap wheels and tracks just jump out at me every time I see someone who has used them. For me ( and I acknowledge I may be a bit obsessed) they detract from any model that uses them. Especially the tracks, as they simply can not be a rational track design. The Tamiya M3/M5 Stuart tracks do the same thing to me.  :-\

Everyone has something that makes them cringe, this just happens to be (some of) mine. :)

Paul
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on October 19, 2016, 09:35:36 AM
See through aircraft fuselages do it for me.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 05, 2016, 01:51:26 AM
The M3 Jackson Multiple Gun Motor Carriage was introduced alongside the M3 Lee in order to provide close support to the Armoured Infantry Regiments of the US Army’s Armoured Divisions heading for North Africa.  Like the Lee and Grant before it, the Jackson was named after a great fighting General but, unlike its stable mates, the name didn’t stick much beyond its initial deployment.  In US Army service, the Jackson was universally better known as the ‘Stonewall’.  Whilst never supplied in great numbers to Great Britain, the British Army was also quick to adopt the name ‘Stonewall’ and at the same time dropped the mouthful that was ‘Multiple Gun Motor Carriage’ in preference for the more functional descriptor of ‘Fire Support Vehicle.’  It wasn’t long before the name M3 Stonewall Fire Support Vehicle became generally accepted across the Allied forces.

Whilst the commonality of the M3 hull would greatly ease maintenance and serviceability, the unusual gun arrangement brought with it its own unique problems.  With its crew of six (Commander, driver, 2 x gunners and 2 x loaders), the fighting compartment was a busy and cramped place.  With 2x 75mm guns to service and a potentially impressive rate of fire, ammunition storage was always going to be a problem and even with every spare corner packed there was never enough space.

It was also quickly realised that in the dry conditions found in North Africa the not inconsiderable dust cloud kicked up when both guns fired not only prevented effective sight of the fall of shot but also instantly gave away the firing position.  In practice, alternating firing of the guns proved to be more accurate and delivered a steadier rate of fire.  Although not intended as such, the Stonewall also proved to be a surprisingly good impromptu tank destroyer.

However, the Stonewall, like the Lee and Grant, was only ever meant to be a stopgap until a better vehicle was made available.  Indeed it was rather cruelly pointed out that the Stonewall had two of everything, two 75s, two gunners, two loaders and was too much trouble.  The 75mm HE round was just too small to provide the desired fire support and when the 105mm armed M7 Priest became available; it quickly replaced the Stonewall in the armoured formations.

Nevertheless, the Stonewall did not entirely disappear and provided useful service to the US Marine Corps and US Army fighting in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.  Although preferring the heavier 25pdr gun for its standard artillery fire support, the British Army saw potential in US Army’s anti-tank experiences and replaced the 75mm guns in most of their existing Stonewalls with 6pdrs in order to provide a more capable SPAT weapon system.  The resulting vehicle showed promise and had a degree of success in North Africa convincing the British Army to consider refining the Stonewall SPAT further by combining the gunners’ positions and sighting systems reducing the crew size to 5 and thus increasing the ammunition stowage.  However, in the end, the concept was never developed beyond the drawing board.

The model depicts the 3rd vehicle of F Company, 2nd Battalion, 13th Armoured Regiment of 1st Armoured Division in North Africa circa November 1942 and is made up from parts of a Tamiya M3 Lee Mk I, a Tamiya M3 Grant Mk I and the ubiquitous plastic card.

(http://i.imgur.com/NkobWFy.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/NZZj5O5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/7QNkx8d.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/WPmeiN3.jpg)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: LemonJello on November 05, 2016, 02:39:16 AM
Awesome! Has just the right wear & tear too!
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 05, 2016, 03:20:15 AM
Thanks, much appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on November 05, 2016, 05:15:31 AM
Excellent story to back up your model.  Especially like the part where the 6pdr was adopted for the UK/Commonwealth version.  ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 05, 2016, 05:38:03 AM
Why thank you. I wonder where those 6pdrs came from...  ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: buzzbomb on November 05, 2016, 05:16:09 PM
Just works.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Volkodav on November 05, 2016, 06:12:32 PM
Nice!

Love the back story too.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 05, 2016, 10:35:34 PM
Just works.

Nice!

Love the back story too.

Much appreciated, thanks guys.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Camthalion on November 07, 2016, 04:05:42 PM
very cool
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on November 07, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
So thatz the story, most interesting.  I'd completely missed it.
Top notch styrene surgery combined with just right weathering. :)
and,,, now you have two 37mm turrets for something(s) else.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 07, 2016, 04:50:01 PM
I don't suppose you would have a 1/35 Commander's Cupola left over that you don't want - see circled part in pic below.  I am after one of these for another project.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 07, 2016, 09:12:01 PM
I don't suppose you would have a 1/35 Commander's Cupola left over that you don't want - see circled part in pic below.  I am after one of these for another project.

Indeed I do.  As finsrin points out, I have the entire M3 Lee turret available.  Drop me a PM with a suitable address and I'll get it in the post.  :)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: tankmodeler on November 07, 2016, 10:48:00 PM
Very cool. Like it a bunch.

In the terminology of the time it probably wouldn't have been the M3 (although there certainly were a LOT of M3s floating about at the time) and it technically would have been called a multiple gun motor carriage not a fire support vehicle, so it's more likely that it would have been the M1 MGMC in US service and the Stonewall Mk I in Brit service. The Yanks never really adopted the naming thing until later in the war.

But that's just me being unnecessarily pedantic.

As I'm wont to be... :)

Paul
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 08, 2016, 12:04:59 AM
Thanks mate and you are very probably right re the real world naming convention.  However, I try an not let such things stifle the creative juices - if indeed juices can be stifled...  ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Volkodav on November 08, 2016, 11:09:22 AM
Just dawned on me that if it had a centrally mounted bow machine gun you could call it Triceratops
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 08, 2016, 03:21:13 PM
Oh good grief!  ;D
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Old Wombat on November 08, 2016, 06:51:58 PM
Sad, really, innit!? ::)


 ;)
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: kerick on November 09, 2016, 02:40:32 AM
Like a certain Australian made tank early WW2
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Feldmarschall Zod on November 09, 2016, 08:31:43 AM
Claymore.

That model looks great. You did a bang up job on getting it to look right.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Claymore on November 09, 2016, 03:09:12 PM
Many thanks, much appreciated.
Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: Antonio Sobral on December 23, 2017, 05:46:16 AM
More that one year later, but I found it!!!  :-[

Ingenious concept, with a flawless assembly/surgery and a cool weathering.

Love it!


Title: Re: M3 Stonewall FSV
Post by: finsrin on December 23, 2017, 09:47:41 AM
Though of this build when bought Testors M3 Lee two day ago.
Top notch inspirational build. :-*
Dream is to do same as 1/72 buy using 1/72 155mm Long Toms and make 1/72 type external changes.