Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on November 06, 2015, 02:44:04 AM

Title: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 06, 2015, 02:44:04 AM
Hi folks,

I can't believe that we did't have a thread dedicated to your Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration...but we do now:

(http://www.pixstel.com/chieftain-mk2_picm90-9099.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Challenger_1MBT_Mk_3_%287527916878%29.jpg/2880px-Challenger_1MBT_Mk_3_%287527916878%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 06, 2015, 02:44:56 AM
To begin with, looking at this image made me wonder...what about a non tracked but rather purely wheeled Chieftain:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TDD-ihQtilA/VjlsJUnc0nI/AAAAAAABpaI/lL3WYRwMCgc/s640/Takom%2BCheiftan%2BMk.11%2B2026%2B%252822%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on November 06, 2015, 03:24:17 AM
thanks to a certain miscreant on here (yes, it was Volkodav) I'm considering an IDF Chieftan with Blazer-block armour ... have the bits, just researching the year of introduction & correct colour scheme ;)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 06, 2015, 03:27:56 AM
How about a downgraded Chieftain with a 105mm gun?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 06, 2015, 04:58:15 AM
Academy have just brought out a range of inexpensive 1/48th tanks (just posted details on their thread) which include a Challenger. That puts lots of ideals in my head:

Swap the cupola and all external "style" bits between the Merkava and the Challenger to make an Israeli Chally and a British Merk.

There was a project in the 1980s for an export tank called the Vickers Valiant that was essentially a Leo II hull with a Vickers turret and the rifled 120mm gun. It never got anywhere, but I think I'm right in saying that some of the turret work got iinto Challenger II. You could do this as a turret swap between a Leo and a Chally. The Valiant turret wasn't exactly like a Chally, but it had the same style.

Simple barrel swap between the Leo and the Chally: one shows Britain biting the bullet and adopting the German smoothbore, while the other shows either NATO adopting the rifled gun or the Germans offering it as an export option for the Middle East.

Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on November 07, 2015, 12:55:07 AM
I can't believe that we did't have a thread dedicated to your Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration...

Because I have been unable to re-discover an illustration I could almost swear to have seen of a Challenger tank with a radar-directed anti-ATGM twin 7.62mm machinegun mount placed on top of turret rear  ;D

Anyway.  I also remember seeing an illustration (don't know if it's fan art or not) of a Merkava tank hull with Vickers MBT Mk.7 turret.  Coupled with the fact that Merkava came into being as a partial result of Israel unable to buy the Chieftain tank...... Merkava with Chieftain tank turret sounds interesting by the virtue of "going full-circle", but I personally prefer Merkava with Vickers or Challenger turret as well as composite armour from Challenger even though I haven't found a justification for that yet.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 07, 2015, 03:12:23 AM
What about a Chieftain modified into a firefighting tank such as this:

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR86rj9RR0-RthnY93vifUfYqKQf2_iYp6_wpZvYPkmymRiYOTK)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 07, 2015, 03:43:23 AM
Jagdchieftain anyone?

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/CAC23/f76f8b19.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 07, 2015, 03:50:18 AM
Chieftain Marksman:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7338/9098360065_d6ba47925c_b.jpg)

or from Greater Australia (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3.0), the Chieftain AS1 Air Defence Variant (ADV) or, "Echidna" - with 120mm main gun replaced with a General Electric GAU-8/A Avenger, seven barrel 30mm cannon fed by a magazine holding up to 1600 rounds and two 4 round pods fitted with Swedish RBS 70 laser-guided missiles.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Greater%20Australia/Echidna01.jpg)

Later replaced by the Challenger II based Echidna II with the the RBS70 missiles replaced with the more potent Oerlikon Aerospace Air-Defense Anti-Tank System (ADATS) in two sets of four missiles. 

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Greater%20Australia/Echidna02.jpg)

These of course support ADF Chieftain and Challenger II tanks:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Greater%20Australia/Chieftain2.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Greater%20Australia/Challenger08.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: raafif on November 07, 2015, 03:53:43 AM
Jordanian Falcon .... all crew in hull.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 07, 2015, 04:00:23 AM
How about the Cold War is still hot when the Chieftains are taken out of service as gun tanks, so the hulls are re-used for other combat types:

GCT-style 155mm SPG turret (Vickers had a design)

SPAAG: Marconi Marksman, Gepard or something else

SPSAM: there was a scheme to put Tigercat on a Centurion, so how about Rapier or Starstreak on a Chieftain?

IAV: apparently the British Army wanted an Israeli-style heavy APC in the early 1980s but the government wouldn't fund it so they got the Warrior instead. How about old Chieftain hulls being used as the basis of an APC in the 1990s? Options might be:

1. Israeli-style tank-hull-with-an-armoured box on top
2. Achzerit-style conversion with a smaller rear engine plus tunnel (see below)
3. Namer/Temsah style with reversed drive train for normal APC layout


Turns out Jordan has done an 'Achzerit' conversion based on a Tariq (Centurion) called the MAP. Instead of fitting a more compact engine to get the rear tunnel, they have instead widened the hull by 450mm and also added a front hatch. Easy to imagine doing something similar to a Chieftain:

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/middle_east/jordan/heavy_armoured/map_ii/pictures/MAP_II_heavy_tracked_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_KADDB_Jordan_Jordanian_002.jpg)

(http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/middle_east/jordan/heavy_armoured/map_ii/pictures/MAP_II_heavy_tracked_armoured_vehicle_personnel_carrier_KADDB_Jordan_Jordanian_001.jpg)

Source: http://defence.pk/threads/jordanian-map-ii-heavy-apc.237947/ (http://defence.pk/threads/jordanian-map-ii-heavy-apc.237947/)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 07, 2015, 04:39:07 AM

Because I have been unable to re-discover an illustration I could almost swear to have seen of a Challenger tank with a radar-directed anti-ATGM twin 7.62mm machinegun mount placed on top of turret rear  ;D



You weren't thinking of the Challenger 2 TES standard were you:

(http://i.imgur.com/QR9uM.jpg)

Apart from the added armour, extra sensors etc, this has a remote weapon station on top.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on November 07, 2015, 07:28:59 AM
You weren't thinking of the Challenger 2 TES standard were you......

Nah.  The artist impression I saw was kinda like a miniature version of Marksman turret with a radar dome on top.

Is there any blow-out panel on the Challenger tank's turret bustle though?  I remember the system being placed on top of the Challenger's own turret bustle in the illustration.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on November 07, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
ROF proposed such a system and I remember drawings of it, it mounted multiple MMGs and a radar system and was mounted on a turret bustle.  As far as I am aware, the Challenger does not have have any blow off panels, unlike the M1 and the Leopard 2.  As it carries it's explosive charges separately to the projectiles lower down, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed storage lockers, its not really necessary.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on November 07, 2015, 07:43:31 PM
I hadn't thought of a Chieftain HAPC or more to the point HIFV, what a great idea, especially for my ever changing (possibly schizophrenic) Antipodean Armour Fest. The question is how to do it, front engine, rear engine with tunnel, or mid engine (with or without tunnel). 
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on November 07, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
Do it like a Temsah conversion of the Centurion, I'd suggest.  Reverse the drive train and have the vehicle permanently driven backwards with an entry ramp placed in the old front of the vehicle.   It would combine the added protection of the engine with increased armour on the old stern of the vehicle.  It would be easier to do that, IMHO than to do an Achzerit-style conversion with a smaller rear engine plus tunnel.  Your passengers would be given superior enbus/debus access to the passenger compartment, not having to manoeuvre over a drive axle.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on November 08, 2015, 12:14:43 AM
Canadian Corps '86 "Chimera"

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u162/ldshleopardcrew/chimera.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 08, 2015, 04:54:27 AM
I hadn't thought of a Chieftain HAPC or more to the point HIFV, what a great idea, especially for my ever changing (possibly schizophrenic) Antipodean Armour Fest. The question is how to do it, front engine, rear engine with tunnel, or mid engine (with or without tunnel).


I suppose the Jordanians (King Abdulah II Design and Development Bureau to be precise) give you to ideas based upon what they have done with the Centurion:

Multi-purpose Armored Platform (MAP) heavy APCdevelopment of the Tariq main battle tank (upgraded version of Centurion) which features fornt and rear hatches for troops to dismount:

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/map_l1.jpg)(http://www.military-today.com/apc/map.jpg)

or the Temsah Heavy APC which also uses the Tariq hull but is arranged so that it is essentially driving backwards and thus allows for a more 'traditional' APC compartment:

(http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah_l2.jpg)

Now would you give it a turret perhaps like the Scimitar?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 08, 2015, 07:09:23 AM
An image to give you a rough idea of what a Chieftain Heavy APC might look like:

(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/Osprey_Modelling_Blog/Weekly%20Modeling%20News/Bovington%20Tank%20museum%20500s/Tankfest2012Themodellingnews103.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 08, 2015, 07:11:50 AM
Some random ideas:

Canadian Chieftain
South African Chieftain
Indian Chieftain
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 08, 2015, 07:28:45 AM
Chieftain Sabre AA Tank:

(http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/UK/Chieftain/photos/Chieftain_sabre_SPAAG.jpg)
(http://s61.radikal.ru/i174/1411/26/3472e746b265.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on November 08, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
I also remember seeing an illustration (don't know if it's fan art or not) of a Merkava tank hull with Vickers MBT Mk.7 turret.


I knew I've saved a copy of the picture somewhere:

(http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab22/dy031101/UK-_Vickers-Challenger-1-merkava_I001.jpg~original)

ROF proposed such a system and I remember drawings of it, it mounted multiple MMGs and a radar system and was mounted on a turret bustle.


I wish I'd saved a copy of that illustration when I saw it *banging head*

As far as I am aware, the Challenger does not have have any blow off panels, unlike the M1 and the Leopard 2.  As it carries it's explosive charges separately to the projectiles lower down, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed storage lockers, its not really necessary.


Got it.  Thanks.  I wonder if this comes up as a problem when British evaluated rearming their tanks with 120mm smoothbore gun.   Though I seem to recall that Jordanians actually demonstrated a Challenger I with a smoothbore gun in stock turret, too.

(http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab22/dy031101/Al_Hussein_Challenger_1_001.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 08, 2015, 11:17:20 AM
Got it.  Thanks.  I wonder if this comes up as a problem when British evaluated rearming their tanks with 120mm smoothbore gun.   Though I seem to recall that Jordanians actually demonstrated a Challenger I  with a smoothbore gun in stock turret, too.

Yes it made the re-arming MUCH more complicated. Actually fitting the gun wasn't that difficult, but re-jigging the ammo system was devil-in-a-million-details job. It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

AFAIK, the smoothbore conversion is off the table for the moment, but apparently, they've just started studying Challenger replacements again, mainly because the new Russian Armata has them worried. So far the only thing they've committed to is a Chally upgrade though.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 08, 2015, 11:50:25 AM
More ideas:

German Chieftain

I've got a half-finished model of a British Army Marder, so how about a German Chieftain/Challenger I as a quid pro quo? They might conclude that the Leo I's 'protection through speed' philosophy was wrong-headed and that heavy armour is the way to go or that the Leo needs a 'heavy' tank to back it up (really a return to WWII ideas), so they buy the Chieftain, suitably 'Germanised'. I'm thinking:

Smoothbore gun (or maybe they're convinced by the L11 - they used the L7....)
MTU engine
Solid turret bins instead of cages
Small IR searchlight mounted over barrel instead of turret side unit
Open tool 'trays' instead of some track guard boxes
Twin low-profile cupolas with skate-ring MG3s instead of big cupola plus plain hatch

A German buy might convince some other NATO nations to follow suite: Belgium? Netherlands?


Chieftain ATGW carrier

Suppose the British Army decided it wanted a heavy, sohpisticated ATGW carrier similar to the Jagdpanzer Rakete instead of the FV.438? The result might have a fixed superstructure (FV.438 on steroids) in place of the turret with muzzle-loading Swingfire boxes overhanging the engine deck.

OR

It could have a rotating turret that would look a bit like a Chally II, but with 16 elevating Swingfires (2 rows of 8) in the bustle, reloadable externally, plus a RARDEN at the front. The turret crew would be just two: gunner (missile and cannon) sat where the Chieftain's gunner sits, and commander/cannon-loader on the other side.



Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 09, 2015, 03:45:24 AM
How about a Chieftain variant with a 152mm gun/launcher such as on the M60A2/M551 to allow use of the Shillelagh missile?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 09, 2015, 03:46:23 AM
or that the Leo needs a 'heavy' tank to back it up (really a return to WWII ideas), so they buy the Chieftain, suitably 'Germanised'

I like that idea
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on November 09, 2015, 04:02:22 AM

Multi-purpose Armored Platform (MAP) heavy APCdevelopment of the Tariq main battle tank (upgraded version of Centurion) which features front and rear hatches for troops to dismount:


Dismounting from the front... visions of D-Day landing craft scene from Saving Private Ryan pop into my head  :o
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on November 09, 2015, 04:54:15 AM
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 09, 2015, 05:56:23 AM
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The separate ammo probably does slow down the rate of fire a bit, but I imagine that's a small price to pay for ten extra shots before you have to disengage and go looking for your logistics.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on November 09, 2015, 10:20:58 AM
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The ROF difference is at worse marginal.  With a well trained crew, the ROF is comparable to a weapon using fixed ammunition.  With split ammunition you gain greater safety (at the time of it's introduction) and a lighter weight turret (not requiring as much protection) which can be better shaped to meet the enemy's fire.  The RAC crews on Chieftain/Challenger were more often let down by their FCS's than the gun and reloading in the various international competitions they took part in.   It wasn't until their dismal showing in the mid-1980s, when the M1 and the Leopard II were introduced in widespread service that the FCS was updated to match the German/American systems.    They showed they were as capable in the first Gulf War, scoring at the time the world's longest kill at over 3,000 metres IIRC.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on November 09, 2015, 09:59:02 PM
The Russian ammo is separate: In the T-72 and T-90, each propellant charge sits above it's projectile in a cradle which is elevated to the ramming position. The shell is rammed, then the cradle drops down a level and the charge is rammed. In the T-80, the two components are gathered up by a cradle and them rammed in one action.

I think you very probably could use a human loader with the 125mm.

I've encountered a claim online stating that the EE-T2 Osorio MBT uses a version of Vickers Mk.7 turret and was to have a version armed with a Eastern-Bloc standard 125mm gun.

Hum...... export Challenger or maybe even Iranian development of Chieftain with Ukrainian or Chinese 125mm gun......?

======================================================

Also, from Wikipedia page for Mobarez, actual Iranian development of Chieftain:

Quote
The gear box is changed so the tank can have 360 degrees turret turn.

Huh?  Does Chieftain tank have some problem with turret traverse?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 10, 2015, 03:34:10 AM
Also, from Wikipedia page for Mobarez, actual Iranian development of Chieftain:

Quote
The gear box is changed so the tank can have 360 degrees turret turn.

Huh?  Does Chieftain tank have some problem with turret traverse?

I suspect that's a case of 'lost in translation.' The Chieftain didn't have a problem with turret traverse per se, but it did have restricted gun depression over the engine deck, as many other tanks do too. That got even worse with the Jordanian Khalid which had a raised engine deck to accomodate a Chally engine. What I suspect Iran has done is re-package the engine bay to make the deck lower.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on November 10, 2015, 07:37:55 PM
Chieftain AVRE with a 165mm demolition gun.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 23, 2016, 01:16:25 PM
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.
Tank-EX, Indian development by combining Arjun turret with T-72 hull.

I still kinda feel that it was a pretty good idea for India, but oh well......

It looks top-heavy with that massive turret.
105mm-armed MBTs generally carried a decent number of rounds so they could afford some non-anti-tank ones, but the 40-odd rounds carried by 120mm-armed MBTs seems to be at the lower limit of what tacticians consider acceptable. Pre-Iraq, the US Army went through a phase of not issuing the M1 with ANY HE round.

And a recent Wikipedia browsing suggests that the Indian Tank Ex project (combining T-72 hull with Arjun turret) carries just 32 rounds of ammunition and the Arjun MBT 39 rounds.

Is the Arjun (and by extention the Tank Ex) using the same gun as the Challenger (or even the Chieftain), or is the Arjun's gun an indigenously-Indian effort?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 23, 2016, 01:57:55 PM
The Indian gun is not the same gun as the Chieftain/Challenger!  It fires a semi-combustible cased round, whereas the Chieftain/Challenger fires a bagged separately loaded round.  The Indian gun, is IIRC based on the German 120mm gun with the usual "Indian" flavours which of course will make it incompatible with the German gun!   :o
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on February 06, 2016, 04:02:13 PM
Interesting (http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/128208-modern-gun-penetration-values/)......

Does this list look right, though?

Guess it also potentially answers the question if Conway tank destroyer would have had access to APDS ammunition......
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on February 06, 2016, 07:01:41 PM
Interesting ([url]http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/128208-modern-gun-penetration-values/[/url])......

Does this list look right, though?

Guess it also potentially answers the question if Conway tank destroyer would have had access to APDS ammunition......


Did you read the replies?

Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetrationvalues often is wellguarded secrets..
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on February 08, 2016, 12:40:56 PM
Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetrationvalues often is wellguarded secrets..

I'll take agreement of this statement as a "no" (as in the list doesn't look right).
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on February 08, 2016, 12:58:04 PM
Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetration values often is well guarded secrets..

I'll take agreement of this statement as a "no".

No, I agree with that statement.  The penetrations don't have the hardness of the armour, the angle of strike or the hardness of the round being used mentioned.  I also have a few problems with some of the estimates which are mentioned.   I note that they more than likely theoretical rather than practical penetrations...
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Marderman on April 24, 2016, 04:05:45 PM
Hello,
yesterday my Marksman arrived from asia. But I don´t build him on die chieftain. I´m a friend of german build vehicles. So I will put him on the Leo2 (real vehicle in Finnland) or the Leo1 (test vehicle germany).
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/didiberlage/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1647_zpskphc8ail.jpg) (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/didiberlage/media/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1647_zpskphc8ail.jpg.html)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/didiberlage/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1649_zps9cw9d5m2.jpg) (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/didiberlage/media/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1649_zps9cw9d5m2.jpg.html)

But the kit includes this option:
"Whaf if"- Berlinbrigade?
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb48/didiberlage/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1646_zpsts8jnufo.jpg) (http://s207.photobucket.com/user/didiberlage/media/review/Chieftain%20Marksman/103_1646_zpsts8jnufo.jpg.html)

Didi
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 25, 2016, 05:11:18 AM
Those Finnish Marksman are quite attractive:

(http://zonwar.ru/images/news2/news-214_6.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLqB6V4WgAA8qrM.jpg)

They have also had the turrets on T-55 hulls:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA9FsS5WcAAHecT.jpg)

If anyone is interested, the turret was designed to go on multiple hulls (thus creating plenty of whiffs for you):

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure1.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure2.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure3.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure4.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure5.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/hybenamon/LAND/ANTI-AIR/MARKSMAN/brochure6.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Marderman on April 25, 2016, 03:53:11 PM
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2016, 01:47:33 AM
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.

No problem - the tease within it is the reference to Leopard III ;)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 26, 2016, 11:37:16 AM
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.

No problem - the tease within it is the reference to Leopard III ;)

Was just going to comment on that.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 26, 2016, 07:39:46 AM
ERA?

(http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/05/1422293417-romor-001.jpg)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on June 26, 2016, 10:46:46 AM
ERA?

([url]http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/05/1422293417-romor-001.jpg[/url])


Quote
It can be fitted with ROMOR-A explosive reactive armor.

[Source (https://aw.my.com/en/forum/showthread.php?3408-Chieftain-tank)]

Quote
Other prototypes

Outside the initial production prototypes PP1, G1 and GT, a mine clearer version kit was developed, as well as the Chieftain Concept Test Rig, the Chieftain SID (modifications set to reduce its signature), another tested the ROMOR-A armour kit, the Varma ERA set, or to test the Vickers/Air-Log Ltd Hydrostrut suspension.

[Source (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/UK/FV-4201_Chieftain)]

However, there is no evidence I am aware of it having been done so, except that picture of a model.  It was fitted to Centurions and Challengers though, apparently although I don't think I've ever seen a picture of it on either vehicle.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on July 29, 2016, 12:53:07 PM
...... maybe even Iranian development of Chieftain with Ukrainian or Chinese 125mm gun......?


My attempt at imagining how it might look like; the result has a longer gun overhang.

(http://i.imgur.com/zvBZCG8.png)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 04, 2016, 04:48:45 AM
Challenger 2 "Export" Greek camouflage

Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 04, 2016, 11:15:49 AM
Chieftain Sabre AA Tank:

([url]http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/UK/Chieftain/photos/Chieftain_sabre_SPAAG.jpg[/url])
([url]http://s61.radikal.ru/i174/1411/26/3472e746b265.jpg[/url])


Ian Wright's doing a Sabre over on ML:

(http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc414/wrightstuff1/Chieftain%20Sabre/DSC09985_zpsmc3gqovs.jpg)

More:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1470232778/last-1470278037/View+Thread (http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1470232778/last-1470278037/View+Thread)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Mick Keenan on August 06, 2016, 01:13:33 AM
That's a weird coincidence, I just read an article in this month's Military Modelcraft International about Cold War A.A. tanks, and there are a fair few photos of the Sabre turret in it.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on August 07, 2016, 11:22:49 PM
I never even knew of the Sabre before a few days ago when I 'discovered' this thread, then Ian's build popped up on ML, and now a MilMod article too.

I'd like to plonk a Sabre turret on a Leopard 1 as an alternate to the Gepard.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 08, 2016, 12:01:13 PM
Just thinking how cool the Sabre turret would look with ADATs pods on either side of it.  You'd not only have an awesome air defence asset but a mean close support vehicle too, especially if you had a 40mm AGL on a RCS on top of the turret.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 09, 2016, 03:23:57 AM
Just thinking how cool the Sabre turret would look with ADATs pods on either side of it.  You'd not only have an awesome air defence asset but a mean close support vehicle too, especially if you had a 40mm AGL on a RCS on top of the turret.

Whilst not a sabre turret, see profiles on pg 1 of this thread.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 09, 2016, 06:57:28 AM
I remember those, they're cool:)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on December 23, 2016, 09:22:10 PM
Challenger 2 LEP bidders downselected; tank to get new turret and new gun? (http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com.au/2016/11/challenger-2-lep-bidders-downselected.html)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 24, 2016, 03:26:15 AM
That does trigger the idea of a simple whiff:  a Challenger with Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 24, 2016, 06:37:25 AM
Or take it a step further and use the same 130mm gun proposed for next Leo2 upgrade. Maybe as a new NATO standard?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 24, 2016, 01:53:10 PM
That does trigger the idea of a simple whiff:  a Challenger with Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun

Same thing I was thinking.  Maybe take it one step further and mount the Leopard 2 turret on the Challenger or is the hull not deep enough to accommodate the Leopard 2 turret?
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 24, 2016, 05:57:45 PM
That does trigger the idea of a simple whiff:  a Challenger with Rheinmetall 120 mm smoothbore gun

pretty much what I am planning as my Dragon Leo 2 A5/6 comes with length barrels and I also have a Trumpy Chally 2
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 25, 2016, 03:21:12 AM
Or take it a step further and use the same 130mm gun proposed for next Leo2 upgrade. Maybe as a new NATO standard?

Nah!  My thinking is that in a bid for standardisation the Brits go for the same basic gun as the M1A1 and Leo2 in the '80s rather than the rifled L11/L30.  This is more of a backward looking whiff rather than future.  If I wanted a bigger gun whiff, I would go for either 140mm or larger.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 25, 2016, 10:12:06 AM
My Antipodean Armour Fest relies on hybrid Chieftains, Challengers and Leos.  German engines for the Chieftain, Challenger 1 and the Challenger II gets engine and gun.  The Brit tanks equip the independent Tank Brigade, replacing Conqueror; while the Germans equip the Cavalry and Armoured Infantry, replacing the Comets and Centurions (USMC fare for the RAM though).
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 23, 2019, 06:49:17 AM
Could it be...... (https://twitter.com/GrantTurnbull_/status/1087686169524166656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1087686169524166656&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.snafu-solomon.com%2F)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 23, 2019, 07:06:46 AM
Could it be...... (https://twitter.com/GrantTurnbull_/status/1087686169524166656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1087686169524166656&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.snafu-solomon.com%2F)

Interesting.  I was aware of the project was going ahead but I assumed they were using the same turrets...
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 23, 2019, 08:49:54 AM
The BAE/Rheinmetall JV could have some interesting implications around the world...
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on January 24, 2019, 06:55:40 PM
Much better quality pictures:

(https://i.redd.it/f4c2y65sn6c21.jpg)

(https://i.redd.it/mb64tiegczb21.jpg)

Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on January 25, 2019, 01:12:38 AM
Thanks for sharing the above images.  I was very interested in seeing what the new gun system would look like on the Challenger. 
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on March 16, 2019, 06:07:28 PM
Quote
Chieftain - Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers

While it was still under development in 1960, the Royal Engineers (RE) requested specialist conversions of the UK’s new Main Battle Tank (MBT), the FV4201 Chieftain to replace the Centurion models then in service. One of the requested specialist vehicles was a new AVRE (Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers) to replace the FV4003 Centurion AVRE. At this time, these specialist vehicles were still called ‘Funnies’, after their famous ancestors in the 79th Armoured Division, ‘Hobart’s Funnies’. It made sense to design these specialist vehicles based on the MBT of the time to ease production, training, and have a plentiful supply of spare parts.

Following feasibility studies in 1963, designs were put forward in May 1965, and September 1966. These designs were designated Armoured Engineer Vehicles (AEV)s. There were two versions. These were the ‘W’ and ‘G’. The AEV (W) would be an unarmed variant with no turret or large caliber armament. It would be equipped with a 30-ton capacity winch, hence the identifier ‘W’. It would also carry the No. 7 twin-track bridge, a short bridgeable to placed across ditches or trenches. It was intended to replace fascines. The AEV (G) retained its turret and carried the same 165mm Demolition Gun (hence the identifier ‘G’) as the Centurion AVRE. It would also carry an ‘A-frame’ crane on the turret in a configuration similar to the American M728 CEV (Combat Engineer Vehicle). An AVLB variant was also designed.

All of these were intended to replace the Centurion-based models then in service. Fifteen AEV (G)s, which had acquired the designation FV4207, were requested as well as 53 AEV (W)s. However, come 1967, the AEV (G) was canceled in favor of the (W). The cancellation of the (G) variant meant that the Centurion AVRE would have to remain in service for another 20 years. With development focussed on the AEV (W), it received the designation of Chieftain AVRE.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/vxVzzTt.png[/url])
Design drawings for the Chieftain AEV (w) above, and the AEV (G) below. Photo: Haynes Publishing

The Chieftain

The FV4201 Chieftain, entering service in 1966, was designed as a replacement for both the Centurion and FV214 Conqueror. It boasted a powerful 120mm gun and tough armor that was up to 230 mm (9 in) thick. It was armed with the L11A5 120mm rifled gun. The tank was manned by a crew of 4, consisting of a commander, gunner, loader, and driver. The Chieftain was one of the first tanks in which the driver sat in a reclining, or supine, position, meaning the tank had a much lower silhouette than previous vehicles.

The tank weighed 55 tons. This weight was supported on a Horstmann suspension inherited from the Centurion. There were six road-wheels per side, attached to three, two-wheel bogies. The idler was at the front while the drive sprocket was at the rear. The tank was powered by the notorious 750hp Leyland L60 multi-fuel engine. The engine was designed to run on different fuels (Petrol, Diesel, even cooking oil) but it was extremely unreliable causing a lot of breakdowns.

After a number of upgrade programs resulting in 12 separate marks of the vehicle, the Chieftain was eventually removed from service with the British Army in the early 1990s. It was replaced in by the Challenger I.

Non-Starter

Come 1969, the design of the Chieftain AVRE had been completed and two prototypes with No. 7 bridges were ordered. The basic configuration of the AVRE was similar to that of the Chieftain ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle) which was under simultaneous development and was equipped with the 3-ton winch and a dozer blade/earth bucket. The No. 7 Bridge was carried driving surface-down on top of the hull.

Development on the AVRE ceased in April 1969. This was due to the development of the Combat Engineer Tractor (CET) by the firm of Vickers at their plant in Leeds, which was a fraction of the cost of the Chieftain variant. It soon became clear that funds would not be available for both vehicles. By the end of the 1960s, the development of both the AVRE prototypes was canceled, leaving the Chieftain AVLB (Armoured Vehicle-Launched Bridge) to be the only variant of the MBT under development for the Royal Engineers. The small CET, which became the FV180, would enter service in 1976.

Resurrected

By the mid-1980s, the Royal Engineers were even more eager to replace their now almost 40-year old Centurion AVREs. Also at this time, the Chieftain’s replacement, the Challenger I had started to be put into service. Realising that a number of surplus Chieftain tanks would become available, the Chieftain AVRE program was resurrected.

A design not too dissimilar from the old AEV (W) concept, almost a simplified version, was drawn up and 13, later 17, surplus Chieftains were made available for the conversion program. Following the acceptance of the design, a wooden mockup was constructed. This was followed by the construction of two prototypes built on Chieftain AVLB Mk. 2 hulls. The conversions were done at Bovington Camp in 1984.

Design

This new AVRE would be operating alongside Challenger I. It was required that the vehicle maintain a high level of maneuverability and the best power-to-weight ratio possible. To achieve this, the turret was removed saving 12-tons. This, however, meant that the 165mm Demolition Gun was not added to the vehicle, making the Centurion the last armed AVRE used by the Royal Engineers.

It would have the ability to mount the standard-issue dozer blade or a modified version of the Centurion 105 AVRE’s mine plow. It could tow two four-wheel ‘AVRE Trailers’ or two Giant Viper (GV) mine clearing devices, doubling the capacity compared to the Centurion. On a UK road it was limited to 1 trailer however.

Atop the turretless hull, a three-piece superstructure was added. Known as the ‘roof-rack’ or ‘hamper’, it could carry three PVC ‘maxi’ pipe fascine rolls or six roles of Class 60 Trackway. Six welded legs secured the rack to the hull, the rearmost rack was fixed in place, but the back section of the middle and the front section of the forward rack could be raised or lowered hydraulically to drop fascines or Class 60 rolls off the front of the vehicle. It was also decided that the rack be capable of carrying a No. 9 Tank Bridge and other stores. Rollers were attached to the rack to facilitate the loading and unloading of the bridge. It must be stressed that the AVRE could not launch the bridge. It would only carry the No. 9 if it was operating in support of the Chieftain AVLB. A seventh roll of Class 60 could be carried on the rear of the hull. The vehicle could also stow its own dozer blade or mine plow in this location. A Rotzler hydraulic winch was also introduced. For close protection, a GPMG (General Purpose Machine Gun) light-machine gun was carried.

The vehicle had a crew of four. This consisted of the commander, driver and two engineers. The driver sat in the standard position at the front of the vehicle. The commander sat in the hull with the two engineers either side of him in very uncomfortable positions due to the low roof.
Production

To speed up the production of the vehicle and get it into service as quickly as possible, it was decided that all conversion work would be handled by the Army. Work started in February 1986 at the 21st Engineer base workshops in Willich, Germany. A total of 17 Chieftains were converted here. AVRE No. 1 was completed in August 1986, and was sent immediately for trials with the 32nd Armoured Engineer Regiment of the BAOR (British Army of the Rhine). This was to assess the design before full production started. This proved to be a wise endeavor, as a total of 40 modifications and additions were made the AVRE No. 2 & 3. The 4th converted vehicle became the finalized design. This was to avoid all 17 of the vehicles having different features and components. After No. 4, all of the AVREs were identical. The last Chieftain AVRE was completed by late 1987.

The completed AVREs were given the designations ‘AVRE Mk. 6/2C’. They were also sometimes known as the ‘Willich AVREs’. Sixteen of the AVREs were based on Mk. 2 Chieftains, with one solitary Mk. 1. The conversions were completed at the relatively cheap price of GB£80,000 each. Two further AVREs were completed at the base workshops of the 23rd Engineer Regiment in Wetter to fulfill the requirement of AVREs in BATUS (British Army Training Unit Suffield), Canada. This brought the total to 19 Chieftain AVRE produced and in service from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s.

Equipment

The role of the ‘CHAVRE’ was much the same as its Centurion and Churchill predecessors, carrying a vast array of battlefield engineering equipment, but specifically not combat as it did not carry an obstacle destruction gun.
Fascines

Just like the AVREs before it, the Chieftain could carry a large fascine over its front end in a cradle mounted on the upper glacis. Fascines had been carried by tanks since their earliest days on the devastated battlefields of the First World War, most notably at the Battle of Cambrai in 1917. Fascines are used to fill wide trenches or ditches to allow tanks to cross. The original fascines were fabricated from brushwood, bound tightly together into a cylinder. In the late 1950s, the Royal Engineers developed a new type, fabricated from large sections of PVC or ‘maxi’ pipe. This was lighter than the original wooden ones, but also allowed water to flow through stopping it from shifting or floating away when dropped in a ditch.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/gvc9ax7.jpg[/url])
(http://‘CHAVRE’ at Salisbury Plain in 2000. The vehicle is carrying two rolls of ‘maxi’ pipe fascine. It is also equipped with a mine plow, and is towing a 7½-ton trailer. Photo: T.J. Neate)

Class 60 Trackway

An extremely versatile piece of kit, this portable metal matting could be used for a number of roles. These included forming a safe bridge approach, helicopter landing pad, stable road over boggy or soft ground, and a safe riverbank exit. The trackway was carried in the same cradle used by the fascine and was deployed in the manner.
Dozer Blade

This hydraulically operated blade was fitted directly to the front of the Chieftain. The blade could be used for a number of tasks. These included carving out hull-down positions for gun tanks (this could be achieved within 7 minutes), digging gun emplacements, route denial (creating and filling anti-tank ditches), and improving bridge approaches. It could also be used aggressively to push barricades or debris from the path of attacking allies, and even clear inert unexploded mines. The blade was also used to flatten ground for the application of Class 60 Trackway by ‘back-blading’, dragging the blade backward over the ground to grade a uniform surface for the roadway to lie on.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/Ujc1n5S.png[/url])
A ‘CHAVRE’ of the 22nd Engineer Regiment, equipped with dozer, blade plows through a dirt pile. Perham Down, 1995. Photo: T.J. Neate

Towed Equipment Trailer

The AVRE could haul one or two 7½-ton four wheel trailers that were designed to carry a fascine roll, two rolls of Class 60 Trackway, demolition charges, No. 7 Anti-Tank mines, RDD (Radiological Dispersal Device) explosives, and other engineering equipment. The trailer could traverse any terrain the tank could, without hindering it. It could be jettisoned when required via an exploding pin in the jointed towing hook.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/RnSdwsh.jpg[/url])
An AVRE towing the 7½-ton trailer loaded with two trackway rolls. Photo: Haynes Publishing
Giant Viper


Another trailer borne-device which was towed by the AVRE. A further development of the World War Two ‘Conger’, the ‘Giant Viper’ was a mine clearing device use to clear large areas of explosive devices such as IED’s or landmines, or clear a path through barbed wire. The Viper was mounted on a trailer that was towed by the tank. It consisted of a 750ft (229 m) long, 2 ⅝ inch (6.6 cm) diameter hose filled with plastic explosives. The Viper would be launched over the tank via a cluster of eight rocket motors, then landing in the area that had to be cleared and exploding. The blast would clear a pathway 24 feet (7.3m) wide and 600 feet (183 m) long. The device was carried on the back of a unique two-wheel trailer.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/yUpIylv.jpg[/url])
Chieftain AVRE towing two ‘Giant Viper’ trailers, the rear of which is launching the Viper rocket. IT is also carrying 3 ‘maxi’ pipe fascines. Photo: Haynes Publishing
Service


Initially, nine of the AVREs went to the 23rd Engineer Regiment, five went to the 32nd Armoured Engineer Regiment, two went to BATUS (followed later by the two more built in Wetter) and a solitary AVRE went to Bovington Camp. Despite some initial teething problems with the general reliability of the Chieftain (the hulls converted were now around 30 years old), this new vehicle provided the Royal Engineers a flexible, hardworking vehicle able to support battle groups, armored divisions and even infantry with a range of engineering tools.
Gulf War

Fourteen Chieftain AVREs, accompanied by their older Centurion brothers, were part of the British contingent sent on Operation Granby, the codename given to British Operations in the 1990-1991 Gulf War. Here they received extra armor protection in the form of Explosive Reactive Armor or ‘ERA’, taken from Warrior MICVs. These were added to both sides of the crew compartment, adding a total of 1.2 tons to the vehicle. ‘Chain mail’ was added in the form of a net which was hung from the roof rack or ‘hamper’ as a defense against shaped-charge ammunition. This was not popular with the drivers as the chains reduced vision.


([url]https://i.imgur.com/HfB2PRS.jpg?1[/url])
Sapper Matthew Newell, 39 Field Squadron, 23 Engineer Regiment, stands with a captured AK-47 assault rifle in front of his AVRE “Whoosh, Bang, Gone!”. Newell was the driver of this vehicle, its name came from the sound made when the Giant Viper mine clearing device was operated. Note the added chain net at the front of the vehicle, and stuffed toy decoration on the left. Photo: Matthew Newell Personal Collection

The AVREs proved very useful in operations in this theatre, serving admirably alongside the Centurion AVREs. Their only real mission, though, was clearing the Milta Pass, North of Kuwait. This was the Main Supply Route (MSR) to the Northern Border with Iraq and it was heavily blocked with wrecks of tanks, trucks, artillery pieces, civilian vehicles, rubble, and all kinds of unexploded ordnance thanks to numerous attacks by marauding US A-10 Warthog ground attack aircraft. All other routes were compromised as there were minefields everywhere on the side of the Basra Road connecting Kuwait City to Iraq. The Chieftains were used to tow and drag destroyed vehicles, while the Centurions shunted wrecked tanks off the road with their dozer blades in case any remaining ammunition cooked off (exploded).

([url]https://i.imgur.com/y1935b2.jpg?1[/url])
Chieftain AVRE ‘Nice and Sleazy’, driven by Sapper Graham Aylward, 39th Field Sqn, 23rd Engr Rgt, in the Gulf. Photographed by Captain Neil Palmer RTR, Command Troop, 14/20th. Hussars, 4 Bde, RSO. Photo: Neil Palmer Personal Collection.

New Model

The AVRE’s success in the Gulf reinforced an idea from 1989, which called for the conversion of more surplus Chieftain hulls. These new AVRE would have a few improvements to the design. The rearmost hamper was fitted with hydraulics to allow the whole thing to tip backwards, allowing fascines or trackway rolls to simply roll off. A small, onboard hydraulic crane was also added. This would lift equipment onto the hull rear and was also used to load fascines and trackway rolls.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/mwj1PA6.jpg[/url])
‘CHAVRE’ using the on-board hydraulic crane to steady roles of ‘maxi’ pipe fascines. The rear deck, carrying a roll of trackway, shows its abiliity to be tipped backwards. Photo: T.J. Neate

A total of 46 of these newer AVREs were constructed in two batches at Vickers Defence Systems at Newcastle-upon-Tyne, consisting of one batch of 30 and another of 16 constructed between 1991 and 1994. The vehicle recieved the official designation of ‘Chieftain Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers’, but this was often shortened to ‘CHAVRE’. Once these newer model AVREs entered service, most of the older ‘Willich AVREs’ were retired, though a few remained in service as training vehicles at various camps and bases.

The CHAVRE saw active service in the Kosovo War of 1998-1999. Here they served with British Contingent of the NATO force dispatched. The ERA configuration used in the Gulf was also used on the vehicles in this theatre. They were mostly used for route clearance and was predominantly used to clear the way for Podujevo camp in the north of the country.

([url]https://i.imgur.com/CmutEMg.jpg[/url])
Chieftain AVRE ‘CHAVRE’ in Kosovo, 2000. Photo: Chieftain Tank Apreciation Society group on Facebook

Fate

The ‘CHAVREs’ were finally removed from service in the early 2000s. They were replaced by the British Army’s currently serving Armoured Engineer vehicle, the Trojan.

A few Chieftain AVREs do survive today. One of the earlier ‘Willich AVREs’ can be found outside the Tank Museum, Bovington. For a time, a later ‘CHAVRE’ was also kept here in a running condition. It was displayed in a few of the Tank Museum’s events. It is believed that it has now been moved to the Royal Engineers Museum, Kent. Another can be found on display at the Chatham Dockyards near London.

FV 4201 MBT specifications
Quote
Dimensions (L-W-H)   35’4″ (24’6″ without gun) x 11’5″ x 9’5″ ft.in
(10.79m (7.51m) x 3.5m x 2.89m)
Total weight, battle ready   55 tons (11000 Ibs)
Crew   4 (commander, driver, gunner, loader).
Propulsion   British Leyland diesel BL 40, 450-650 bhp, later BL 60, 695 bhp
Speed   48/30 km/h road/cross-country (29.82/18.64 mph)
Range/consumption   500 km (310.68 mi)
Armament   One L11A1 120 mm (4.7in) with Marconi cal.50 gun
One coaxial 7,62 mm L8A1 (0.3 NATO) machine-gun
One cupola mounted AA L37A1 7,62 (0.3 NATO) machine-gun
Armour   turret front 7.6in, glacis 4.72in, sides 1.37in (195/120/35 mm)
Ammunition used   Antipersonal HESH, armour-piercing APDS.
Total production   900 for Great Britain alone, up to 1381 export variants


([url]http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/49616507_231334034438714_4743137306452426752_n.png[/url])
FV4203 Chieftain Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers (AVRE) in a two-tone camouflage pattern. The AVRE is equipped with a mine plow and is carrying two ‘maxi-pipe- fascines.


[Source (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-uk-fv4203-chieftain-avre/)]

Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on April 03, 2019, 08:08:26 AM
ERA?

([url]http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/05/1422293417-romor-001.jpg[/url])


Another take on ERA.  ;) Albeit just a Chieftain VISMODed to represent a T-80BV.
Came across this while looking for info on the turret ERA mounting points of the actual T-80BV. Trumpeter's "quick build" 1/72 T-80BV looks nice oerall, but the turret ERA is a tad oversimplified. The upper and lower rows form a solid wedge. Which, in turn, might be an interesting idea for a T-80BVwhif with wedge-shaped add-on armour as seen on the Leopard 2A5.

(https://i.imgur.com/4k85WLn.jpg)
SOURCE (https://imgur.com/r/tankporn/4k85WLn)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 04, 2019, 01:21:06 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on December 02, 2019, 11:08:53 AM

Because I have been unable to re-discover an illustration I could almost swear to have seen of a Challenger tank with a radar-directed anti-ATGM twin 7.62mm machinegun mount placed on top of turret rear  ;D


You weren't thinking of the Challenger 2 TES standard were you......

Nah.  The artist impression I saw was kinda like a miniature version of Marksman turret with a radar dome on top.

Is there any blow-out panel on the Challenger tank's turret bustle though?  I remember the system being placed on top of the Challenger's own turret bustle in the illustration.

ROF proposed such a system and I remember drawings of it, it mounted multiple MMGs and a radar system and was mounted on a turret bustle.  As far as I am aware, the Challenger does not have have any blow off panels, unlike the M1 and the Leopard 2.  As it carries it's explosive charges separately to the projectiles lower down, below the turret line in pressurised water jacketed storage lockers, its not really necessary.

There we go.  Thank Heavens for the Internet.
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 03, 2019, 01:39:27 AM
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 19, 2020, 05:11:49 AM
More ideas:, <snip>
Chieftain ATGW carrier

Suppose the British Army decided it wanted a heavy, sohpisticated ATGW carrier similar to the Jagdpanzer Rakete instead of the FV.438? The result might have a fixed superstructure (FV.438 on steroids) in place of the turret with muzzle-loading Swingfire boxes overhanging the engine deck.

OR

It could have a rotating turret that would look a bit like a Chally II, but with 16 elevating Swingfires (2 rows of 8) in the bustle, reloadable externally, plus a RARDEN at the front. The turret crew would be just two: gunner (missile and cannon) sat where the Chieftain's gunner sits, and commander/cannon-loader on the other side.
Vertical Launch Swingfire?  Would that be a viable option? 

Another option might be a vertical launch version of the FGM-148 Javelin ATGM.  A couple dozen missiles on board for reloading and another dozen in ready to launch tubes centrally located in the hull or perhaps on each side of the hull external to the fighting compartment.  I doubt a turret would be practical for such an application but a couple fixtures for the Javelin CLU might be practical to allow multiple shots and allow for an immediate follow up attack on targets in close proximity to each other.   
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on April 26, 2020, 06:57:04 AM
The little known amphibian Chieftain:

(https://i.redd.it/h97ea0inisu41.jpg)
SOURCE (https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/g7lbre/looks_like_someone_goofed_up_the_invasion_of/)
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 26, 2020, 08:28:24 AM
Freaky.  Kind of like an underwater army on the march.

Might screw up the archeologists in a few thousand years time too...
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 11, 2020, 02:39:28 AM
New camouflage scheme being trialed by British Army:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoFPyL2XcAAJPwt.jpg)

Click to see bigger version
Title: Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on December 11, 2020, 10:33:59 PM
Once the new scheme is effective enough the entire fleet could be retired and no one would realise