Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Land => Topic started by: finsrin on August 11, 2013, 01:02:28 PM

Title: Stuart tank
Post by: finsrin on August 11, 2013, 01:02:28 PM
Posing this question for those of you who know tanks and tank FCS and etc...
I have Stuart kits in 1/35 and 1/72.   Presume others at BTS do too.
To build Stuarts M3 & M5 as modernized with contemporary FCS and whatever else thatz new --- what would you add/delete to indicate it has a 21st Century modernization ?
Thanks in advance.
Bill
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 01:24:02 PM
Maybe give it a fluted barrel (see below) as well as external sensor heads/turret.  Maybe also ERA armour and a external ATGW mount.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps9fad9aa6.jpg)
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: jcf on August 11, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
Well there is this M3A3 with Vulcan that's been languishing on the shelf o' doom.

(http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww291/joncarrfarrelly/M3A3_M61_02.png)

Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 11, 2013, 01:35:25 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: finsrin on August 11, 2013, 01:46:35 PM
Nice surprise :)
Wasn't thinking in that kinda direction.  Do like it.
Perhaps a Cobra helicopter 3-barrel 20mm in stock turret.
What are examples of proper external sensor heads for 20mm or the 37mm ?

With that much of a start and it looking so right; otta move it to front of next to be finished queue.
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Old Wombat on August 11, 2013, 02:23:05 PM
If you're going for a (small) gun tank; enhanced optical, infra-red & thermal imaging systems, & laser range-finder would be essential. ERA, definitely; otherwise its merely a mobile crematorium. Maybe a 30mm chaingun firing the GAU-8 round? Bigger engine, diesel, or go for a small gas turbine (as per M1 Abrams). Boxed ATGW, at least 1, possibly 2 (for those hard-to-kill targets). May not be great in the front line, but could make a decent LoC & logistics smasher!

Vulcan-type systems, these days, it's definitely going to be infantry fire support. So, the same imagining systems as above & the option of laser rangefinder (not essential, though). Spaced ceramic armour (open turret + ERA = not so healthy for crew). Probably go with the diesel for your new engine.

My ha'penny's worth! ;)

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Volkodav on August 11, 2013, 04:46:22 PM
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG. 
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: finsrin on August 11, 2013, 05:22:28 PM
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Volkodav on August 11, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
Whooping big single barrel revolver canon firing same ammo as GAU-8 Avenger in the A-10.  Its main service use was on the JA37 Viggen
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Rickshaw on August 11, 2013, 05:37:01 PM
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?

It's a type of cannon By Oerlikon of Switzerland.  It has the longest barrel of the present crop of 30mm cannon (which means essentially one of the highest muzzle velocity [1030m/sec] ).  It fires the same round as the GAU-8 (30173mm).
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Old Wombat on August 11, 2013, 11:39:22 PM
Or a single barrel KCA  (30x173mm), same ammo, smaller, lighter and a coax MG.

You got me stumped.  Whatz "KCA" ?

It's a type of cannon By Oerlikon of Switzerland.  It has the longest barrel of the present crop of 30mm cannon (which means essentially one of the highest muzzle velocity [1030m/sec] ).  It fires the same round as the GAU-8 (30173mm).

Cool, I can go with that! 8)

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: finsrin on August 12, 2013, 07:44:32 AM
More discussion.
Cobra 3bbl 20mm fits in small turret.  Figure is good to fit M3 turret.
Would 25mm Bushmaster or 30mm KCA also fit and fire ?
Seems long KCA barrel needs more support than Stuart provides.
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Rickshaw on August 12, 2013, 08:44:51 AM
Fit an external barrel support.  They are used on various weapons, including the Jordanian Scorpions fitted with a 30mm cannon.   They also prevent barrel whip or droop (although droop usually sorts itself out, with the barrel straightening as the round fires).
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Old Wombat on August 12, 2013, 01:17:31 PM
Or re-design the turret to be both more supportive of the barrel & more resistant to incoming fire (angled sides, rather than flat).

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Weaver on August 12, 2013, 07:30:44 PM
Re- think: how about two pods of ATGWs on the sides of the turret and the 37mm replace by a 40mm AGL to keep the enemy infantry teams away?
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Old Wombat on August 12, 2013, 11:06:03 PM
Ooh, forgot to say, definitely remove the bow .30-cal mg. If necessary, fit a 7.62mm co-axial (I think even the largest possible turret would be too small for a .50-cal co-ax).

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: finsrin on August 13, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
40mm AGL --- didn't think of that - Thanks
Stuarts will be deployed as part of (1/72 diorama) archipelago defense forces mostly to thwart infiltrators.
So,,,,,   3bbl 20mm, 25mm Bushmaster, 40mm AGL  may each be mounted on different Stuarts.
Yes - 7.62 coax always good to have  :)
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Old Wombat on August 13, 2013, 09:48:41 AM
Another thought.... Would the M-1117 turret fit? 40mm AGL & .50-cal ready to rumble!
(Remember, I'm 5000 km from my stash, so I can't check.)

:)

Guy
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: jschmus on September 06, 2013, 04:45:03 AM
From the World of Tanks link posted in the "M4 Sherman" thread I saw this vehicle, the SO-75, an M3A3 chassis fitted with the 75mm Pak 40:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img812/8453/m3a3pak40.jpg)
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: raafif on September 06, 2013, 01:38:54 PM
Yugoslav Partisan conversion 1944 - if I remember correctly 3 of these were built plus two with German quad-flaks, all used in combat.
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on October 02, 2013, 01:10:40 AM
Got a running WWII tank for your little South American army but the lack of firepower is getting you down?  We have the solution!

(http://cs410622.userapi.com/v410622883/1319/OYMxzEzpdJM.jpg)

Combine with new digital camo for that ultra-modern look!

(http://i.imgur.com/2js9Z.jpg)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: kerick on October 02, 2013, 10:13:20 AM
OK, this "digital" camo is completely out of hand!
Nice pics.......where do you find these?
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on October 02, 2013, 11:00:04 AM
Thanks!  They came from here.  Plenty of whif inspiration here.

Surviving Panzers (http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzers.html)

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_M3_M3A1_Stuarts.pdf (http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_M3_M3A1_Stuarts.pdf)

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/D2A120/Defender/IMG_3271.jpg)

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8254768884_76288754e1_c.jpg)

(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/51/138357874_85f9adae35_z.jpg?zz=1)

(http://preservedtanks.com/Handler.ashx?UniqueID=1818&Size=P)

(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/7633/17880296303403749632428.jpg)

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/85693419.jpg)

(http://www.justberry.com.au/CMSPages/GetBizFormFile.aspx?filename=4e4d329a-76c5-4287-a331-fb9a828c7948.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/M3A1_Stuart%2C_Smuts_House%2C_South_Africa.JPG/1024px-M3A1_Stuart%2C_Smuts_House%2C_South_Africa.JPG)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Frank3k on October 02, 2013, 12:20:43 PM
Some of those are insane- the Bren carrier with the turret and what looks like an M3 with a 2pounder. The "convertible" is hilarious; 0 to 60 in about 10 minutes...
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: raafif on October 02, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/51/138357874_85f9adae35_z.jpg?zz=1)

I only have one thing to say -- "Punk Darleks, Exterminate, Exterminate !!" ;D
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: tankmodeler on December 01, 2013, 11:32:41 AM
The biggest probblem with the Stuart is its size. It is incredibly small inside. Normal 21st century people simply do not fit inside. Peoiple that were 5'10" and 150 lb found it small. Strapping modern troopers pushing 6'2" and 220 of muscle simply will not fit inside unless you make significant structural changes.

If you want to "modernize" it, about the best you can do is what the Brazilians did in the early 70s:
(http://qa.operatorchan.org/v/src/133235048140.jpg)

If you are willing to virtually make a complete new vehicle you can get as far as this:
(http://www.areamilitar.net/DIRECTORIO/im_TER/M5Stuart_X1A2.jpg)

Either of those vehicles _could_ have image intensification systems and maybe simplistic laser rangefinders and then you could add ERA or ceramic slab armour, but the suspensions would be brutally overloaded.

If you go with a new turret with larger turret ring, then the gun can be changed to somehithg more suitable to the mission and for anti smuggling patrols the 30mm Rarden from the CVRT series of tanks is a good choice. Lots of ammo choices and a feed system that can swap between two types simultaneously loaded in the system. Also optimised for AFV use so it's not chewing through ammo like an aircraft autocannon ( ;) ).

Change the engine out for a modern diesel and add an IR suppression exhaust system and a turret bustle for radios & electronics.

Just a few thoughts,

Paul
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 17, 2014, 10:05:41 AM
Here's an interesting one. It's an M8 HMC, but with an M24 Chaffee mantlet.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/ROCA_M8_Scott_Display_in_Chengkungling_20111009.jpg/640px-ROCA_M8_Scott_Display_in_Chengkungling_20111009.jpg)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Queeg on September 17, 2014, 10:23:26 AM
I've always like this as a Stuart upgrade, thinking about using this idea for my 20mm '46 Americans. Sorry can't credit the modeller, it's just outa my web pic stash .....

Brent


(http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii548/Queeg2/Project%2046/StuartMkVII_zpsf09b5491.jpg) (http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/Queeg2/media/Project%2046/StuartMkVII_zpsf09b5491.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 17, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
Pretty straightforward, actually. Brazilian X1A with 60mm HVMS instead of the 90mm Cockerill.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 17, 2014, 10:44:47 AM
By the way, I found the source pretty readily. Graywolfgang ono Armorama about 5 years ago.

(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/39wolfgang/Other%20Conversions%20and%20Scratch%20Builds/002.jpg)

http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=135186 (http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=135186)

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Queeg on September 17, 2014, 12:47:33 PM
That's the Verlindin HVMS turret though right? It looks better than the X1A turret at any rate. 

PS that was a quick search btw. I knew I had the pic somewhere but searching the drive for it was a mare lol

Brent
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Logan Hartke on September 17, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
It looked like it from the builder's comments. He says he built it in '88 using the VL turret.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: Queeg on September 18, 2014, 04:41:07 AM
Blackdog do a HVMS in 1/72nd so I might have to chase one up ...........
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: raafif on September 24, 2014, 04:52:43 AM
screen-grabs from a 45-minute youtube video on Croatian 1991 improvised armour ....

Note the improvised tank named "Sherman" - other photos weren't clear & I thought it must be built on a Russian catapillar-tractor but it appears to be based on a M4-18t "High-Speed" tractor chassis.
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: dy031101 on April 05, 2018, 05:41:47 AM
I've always like this as a Stuart upgrade, thinking about using this idea for my 20mm '46 Americans. Sorry can't credit the modeller, it's just outa my web pic stash .....

The 60mm HVMS turret has the same turret ring diametre as that of the AML-90 turret.  I have an awful sense of scale, but that makes the idea of a turret swap for the X1A seem somewhat hopeful to me.

Does anyone know the length of a complete 60mm APFSDS round?  Just to help me generating a mental picture on the possible resulting ammo capacity......

Pretty straightforward, actually. Brazilian X1A with 60mm HVMS instead of the 90mm Cockerill.
That's the Verlindin HVMS turret though right? It looks better than the X1A turret at any rate.

I don't have the number on the weight of the turret used by the X1A, but the heavier gun and seemingly more-sophisticated fire control leads me to believe that the complete HVMS turret might be heavier than the X1A turret.  I love the idea but wonder if the added weight is still within the margin that the tank's suspension can handle......
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2018, 05:56:06 AM
Does anyone know the length of a complete 60mm APFSDS round?  Just to help me generating a mental picture on the possible resulting ammo capacity......

I believe this is the same ammunition (the Italians were originally involved with the Israeli 60mm APFSDS round as well):

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sC-GTVe6yB8/VH2ZVlvlktI/AAAAAAAA79Y/vy07Y0B2aAw/s800/60mm-hvms-ammo-iaf-2.jpg)

So complete cartridge is 620mm.
Title: Re: Stuart tank
Post by: dy031101 on April 05, 2018, 06:28:07 AM
So complete cartridge is 620mm.

Thanks.  That as a complete round seems both shorter and lighter than the 90mm DEFA F1 gun's HEAT round (at least as far as the numbers I got off Google are concerned: 690mm and 8.4kg).